Why is Azir's laning phase so oppressive

FalconPawwwwnch·Jan 10, 2015·27 votes·4,798 views

I thought he was supposed to be a late game champion

You'll have better luck afking than laning against Azir if you're a melee champion

51 Comments

DirewolfiezJan 10, 201513 votes

Because Riot has no idea how to make new late-game champs that also don't double as early-game lane bullies...

-cough cough- Yasuo, Lucian, Gnar -cough cough-

disregardableJan 10, 20152 votes

how is Gnar an early game bully? Actually, even more so, how is Yasuo?!

FalconPawwwwnchJan 11, 201511 votes

Yasuo isn't

Gnar is ranged, has no mana costs, and has an instant escape

Yea I don't see that being abused in lane at all

DirewolfiezJan 11, 201510 votes

Admittedly, Yasuo is less of one after his nerfs, but if you make one mistake he snowballs about as hard as Akali, thanks to his early power spike of Shiv + IE. I've been chunked by his 3rd Q too many times to not consider him a lane bully.

Kat HeadJan 11, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Admittedly, Yasuo is less of one after his nerfs, but if you make one mistake he snowballs about as hard as Akali, thanks to his early power spike of Shiv + IE. I've been chunked by his 3rd Q too many times to not consider him a lane bully.

If he has IE and Shiv, it is not laning phase anymore.

DirewolfiezJan 11, 20152 votes

Granted, but still, he snowballs so easily, and when I mid against a Yasuo I usually have to stay there to deter him from roaming, so it still feels like laning.

Kat HeadJan 11, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Granted, but still, he snowballs so easily, and when I mid against a Yasuo I usually either have to stay there to deter him from roaming, so it still feels like laning.

I finished a game earlier today where my mid lane Yasuo was 0-16-0 at one point.The enemy Zed was 3 levels ahead of everyone else in the game. Yasuo finished 5-19-1. He landed a good tornado while retreating from another attempt at feeding and I kid you not the PentaKill announcement made me want to puke.

VentusDragoonJan 11, 20151 votes

This. This. THIS.

MegarolfJan 11, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kat Head,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MiMquJTg,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-11T00:50:09.340+0000)

I finished a game earlier today where my mid lane was 0-16-0 at one point.The enemy was 3 levels ahead of everyone else in the game. finished 5-19-1. He landed a good tornado while retreating from another attempt at feeding and I kid you not the PentaKill announcement made me want to puke.

I don't believe you

disregardableJan 11, 20151 votes

He does no damage. None. Every top laner outdamages him in his mini form. All they have to do is use their gap closer, spam all their abilities, and you lose at least half your health before you can even hop out. It's good to just stay behind minions and farm early, hope you don't get ganked when you go into megaform so you can maybe do some damage.

I mean I love Gnar. He's just not particularly good before level 10.

DirewolfiezJan 11, 20158 votes

You forget that he can poke people down quite easily with his Mini Form's W, which does % damage on the third auto.

disregardableJan 11, 20151 votes

I'm in Bronze 4, and even my opponents aren't stupid enough to let me proc that.

DirewolfiezJan 11, 20153 votes

I really doubt that. I've played with Bronze 1 people that didn't realize that they were supposed to focus the squishies and tried to 4v1 the Wukong with GA while his team flanked them.

disregardableJan 11, 20151 votes

They do understand the basic thought of "gee, I probably shouldn't let him just attack me consecutively". And Gnar's range is low enough (245+5x his level) that I'm not actually able to hit from behind my minions to the back of the wave where my opponent is.

I mean if I try really hard I can generally proc it once or twice. Take some minion aggro.

DirewolfiezJan 11, 20153 votes

Melee champs aren't exactly known for their extreme speed or high AA range. Unless you're going up against Quinn, Vayne or Kalista (in which case you either got counterpicked or you have no idea when a good time to play Gnar is), you're going to be able to poke them pretty easily.

Also, THEY EXPOSED THEMSELVES ENTIRELY TO THE COMBO OF THE OTHER TANK AND THE ENEMY ADC AND APC, while I was the only person even trying to take out the biggest threat. You NEVER focus someone with GA unless they're the ADC/APC; even I know that and I'm unranked.

SeargentAnusJan 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Melee champs aren't exactly known for their extreme speed or high AA range. Unless you're going up against Quinn, Vayne or Kalista (in which case you either got counterpicked or you have no idea when a good time to play Gnar is), you're going to be able to poke them pretty easily.

Also, THEY EXPOSED THEMSELVES ENTIRELY TO THE COMBO OF THE OTHER TANK AND THE ENEMY ADC AND APC, while I was the only person even trying to take out the biggest threat. You NEVER focus someone with GA unless they're the ADC/APC; even I know that and I'm unranked.

Gnar still shits on Quinn :/. Landing proper blinds can only do so much.

lojicianJan 11, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MiMquJTg,comment-id=00000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-11T00:18:10.255+0000) I mean if I try really hard I can generally proc it once or twice. Take some minion aggro.

Oh you have to take some minion aggro to harass? Woe be unto you, huh pal?

disregardableJan 11, 20151 votes

As literally the champion with the least health in the game, yeah. I don't like taking a lot of damage.

RavenKouhaiJan 11, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MiMquJTg,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-01-11T00:10:47.899+0000)

even my opponents aren't stupid enough to let me proc that.

by that logic, vayne is trash tier

disregardableJan 11, 20152 votes

vayne is different. bot lane doesn't wait around for 20 minutes trying to trade well. we engage pretty much from level 2+. her range is short, yes, but trying to outmaneuver your opponent is a huge thing bot lane. It's not impossible to play off bad positioning or your support's CC.

VentusDragoonJan 11, 20153 votes

You forget the fact that he has Vayne's silver bolts passive that gives him % damage every 3 hits, which can also be proced by his Q. In addition, he has sivir's Boomerang Blade with Olaf's Catch reset.

Static DuckJan 12, 20151 votes

you forgot a slow and %HP dmg.

BattleOozeJan 11, 20151 votes

I don't understand why people think Yasuo isnt an early game threat in lane xD I can wreck anyone in lane easy with him.

doubleguacJan 11, 20152 votes

I agree that Gnar is a huge lane bully at the moment, and has a very strong early game, but I'm not sure why you think he is or was meant to be a late game champion.

I've played Gnar quite a bit in both ranked and normals. In my experience, his power peaks in the mid game then falls off.

Mini form is better suited to skirmishes than full 5v5 team fights. Mini gnar's usefulness peaks during the mid game, where skirmishes are most common, and tends to fall off once the game settles into full team fights.

Mega gnar always offers huge CC. But his damage peaks in the mid game, then tends to decline pretty sharply. Mid game, you can burst people with nothing but a brutalizer. Late game, even with a handful of large damage items, he can't burst people anymore, and settles into more of a "CC tank" role.

He's not bad late game. But he doesn't have a crazy late game either. He definitely scales down after the mid game.

The problem with Gnar isn't that he's a late game champion with too strong of an early/mid game. He's a mid game champion with too strong of an early/mid game.

AltricadJan 11, 20151 votes

Actually, the upcoming nerf to IE ( reduced critical chance) might be a small nerf to yasuo. Honestly, they could just reduce the damage of his critical strike by 20% instead of 10% and buff his other stuff.

He scales TOO good into late game.

Granted he does have his counters Swain Azir Mordekaiser Riven Lissandra

and he is supposed to counter Zyra Orianna Ziggs Ahri

but his oppressive late game is no excuse for his balanced early game.

NarasimhaJan 11, 20157 votes

Because you let him be.

Is he poking you? Then go in on him. If he's only using one soldier, the damage isn't worth talking about. If he's using two in laning, he has no escape. So punish him. Don't just stand there and take it like his bitch.

For the record, if you're a nonstandard melee mid in the laning phase, that should be a tip off that something is wrong. And of the melees that typically go mid (Katarina, Talon, Zed), not one of those has trouble against Azir.

Water of EdenJan 11, 20156 votes

You not knowing how to trade =/= Champion is OP. I counterpick Azir with Zed or Kassadin. Play safe, then wait to hit level 6 and destroy him. Don't give up any kills pre-6 and, this is the most important, know the limits of your champion.

HollabakatchyaJan 11, 20152 votes

^Totally right, I play Azir mid and I hate going up against Kass as he's a perfect counter. Although anytime Azir is on the map, positioning is everything in my opinion. If you can anticipate where he's going to send his soldiers, he'll be on cooldown after his q and you can get up close and lay some damage down on him.

doubleguacJan 11, 20151 votes

All you've done is list counterpicks. Listing counterpicks isn't a meaningful response to OP's complaint. The fact that Zed lanes well against Azir doesn't say anything about whether Azir is, holistically, too oppressive in lane.

There have been lots of OP champions in the history of LoL. There has never been a champion that hasn't had at least 1 or 2 counterpicks in lane. Being able to counterpick a champion doesn't mean said champion is holistically healthy or balanced. One team always has to pick mid first. In half of your games, you have to pick mid first.

Sure, assassins with strong engage tend to lane well against Azir. I agree with OP, though, that Azir is needlessly oppressive to lane against as a mage. He bullies most other mages in lane, while also scaling extremely hard into the late game.

BoulderoxJan 11, 20153 votes

he is a late game champ. his laning sucks, pre 6 its pretty easy to outduel him, if you can hit lvl 2 before him ATTACK HIM, he cant do anything but try to farm under turret, where you continue to force him back. and early jungle ganks is something you can also communicate to your jungler. if azir falls behind early it takes a LOT to come back. IE he will probably start to roam for kills. That is what i find from playing azir. when engaging stay on top of him so his jump ability hits you and he is yours

DirewolfiezJan 11, 20153 votes

He's a lane bully. Please, just try and debate that point so I can laugh at you.

BoulderoxJan 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He's a lane bully. Please, just try and debate that point so I can laugh at you.

Of course he is, that doesn't make him op, Ezreal Lulu Rumble Yorick Teemo Nasus Heimerdinger Cassiopeia THESE are lane bullies, and look where they sit, Yorick is unused, cass is in that wierd state right now, ez is on the rise as freelo, Don't start on lulu and heimer. Nasus agrivates the fuck out of me, i can outduel him early so bad but in the end have to give up my lane cus his q bullshit. True lane bullies have the ability to make your life hell for doing anything, IN MORE THAN ONE WAY

And you think having a champ centered around one ability being a worse lane bully? stay away from his soldiers, thats all you ever have to do, nobody ever listens.

no soliders=no threat

lojicianJan 12, 20151 votes

Nasus is not a lane bully. Being able to Q you out of lane 20 minutes in isn't what is commonly meant by "lane bully". Rumble is not a lane bully either. He's a bad duelist at all stages of the game though admittedly chain nerfing everyone else top might be changing that. Most of your list fine, whatever, but those two you're just wrong about.

A lot of tips people have for dealing with champions with oppressive laning phases just boil down to "don't be melee". Which yeah, you probably shouldn't be if you're trying to not be trash in lane. But the game should not be balanced with the mindset that that is acceptable.

BoulderoxJan 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Nasus is not a lane bully. Being able to Q you out of lane 20 minutes in isn't what is commonly meant by "lane bully". Rumble is not a lane bully either. He's a bad duelist at all stages of the game though admittedly chain nerfing everyone else top might be changing that. Most of your list fine, whatever, but those two you're just wrong about.

and a slow and a aoe spell and an oh shit im low on health button that gives him a steriod for fights

thats not bully potential at all

I can give that rumble is typically not, but i always find myself pushing my waves really far with him, as his Q is so useful at it

JunkοJan 11, 20151 votes

I love playing Azir, people just decide they are taking too much damage and just run away, sometimes even FLASH AWAY. People apparently think that using 1 soldier then Qing and 1 AA is enough damage to completely give up on the lane. I will say 2 Ws +Q+AA is a bit cheese but you also leave yourself open to a gank if you do that

MPendragonJan 11, 20151 votes

Gnar...not a lane bully. Let me ask a question here. Has anybody ever SEEN Gnar late game?

Gnar is about on par with Fizz as is the consistency with bans. But his ban has nothing to do with his lane bulling. It's his late game... rolls eyes

HandheldBrandonJan 11, 20151 votes

His early and late game is good but dear good his mid game is atrocious.

lDontLiftIcarryJan 11, 20151 votes

no a champion with a bad mid game is shaco. you don';t know what a bad mid game is until you play shaco.

Colgate MinuetteJan 11, 20151 votes

Just kill him before level 3 (Really early gank) And he just falls over and dies like a bitch. He'll pretty much just take whatever you want him to after that good luck with him making a good comeback.

FlemmanJan 11, 20151 votes

cause untargetable farming device, like zed

if you don't have mobility or insane range, better switch lane

lojicianJan 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

cause untargetable farming device, like zed

if you don't have mobility or insane range, better switch lane

The jungle isn't a lane.

FlemmanJan 11, 20151 votes

"Why is Azir's laning phase so oppressive "

Did we really need to talk about jungle in this thread :p

lojicianJan 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"Why is Azir's laning phase so oppressive "

Did we really need to talk about jungle in this thread :p

It was a joke. Because you said having no mobility or range means you need to switch lanes. No, it means you have no place in lanes. There is no lane where you won't get shit on as a low mobility melee.

lojicianJan 11, 20151 votes

Well gnar has massive cc, % damage, high bases allowing him to build tank. I think falling off has more to do with tank itemization in league of penetration than anything else.

werewolvecasterJan 11, 20151 votes

I think Azir is quite balanced because you can easily out trade him if he misplaces his soilders

Gank in ProgressJan 11, 20152 votes

what a laughable argument

RebonackJan 11, 20151 votes

"Kog'Maw has extremely long range, powerful auto attacks. Because of this he's immobile, vulnerable, and has no hard CC."

Azir

disregardableJan 11, 20151 votes

AP. Meaning he needs to not only dominate teamfights so hard that his ADs actually live through them and then convince them to take objectives instead of backing.

f00G3MxfPPJan 12, 20151 votes

Because he's heimerdinger with movable turrets and enough damage and utility (including probably the best peeling skill in the game) to be relevant late game.

The Bard DogJan 11, 2015

{quoted}

I thought he was supposed to be a late game champion

You'll have better luck afking than laning against Azir if you're a melee champion

your fault for losing to him in lane. early he's absolutely screwed because of massive mana costs, and the fact that once he q's his soldiers to you he has no escapes which means you should just close the distance between you and him. his AA's are pitiful.