Can we buff Graves W? I think I have valid reasons.

Rew711··1 votes·678 views

Okay, not trying to be OP here but I've noticed some things. Graves has a counterpart named Jinx who has a kit twice what his is. Now, I like his ultimate damage. I like his Q damage. I like the E buff. All work well with me. It has come to light that I never want (or feel a need) to use my W since it both deals no damage and does barely any slow.

It costs 70/75/80/85/90 mana. It deals 60/110/160/210/260 (+60% AP). And slows for 15/20/25/30/35%. If it lands on the target.

Jinx, however, has a E that costs 50 mana. Deals 80/135/190/245/300 (+100% AP). And roots a champion for 1.5 seconds.

I don't want to be OP, as I'd said, but Jinx gets free AS buffs with Q and a long range damage that deals a lot. Graves Q can deal more, if up close, dealing up to 150% AD and up to 360 base damage, but Jinx follows up with a slow. More of a slow than Graves does.

I ask, can Graves please get his W boosted to deal 60/120/180/240/300 (+60% AP)? And slows for 15/25/35/45/55%?

Its just, they both have the same attack range, but Jinx has more in a kit and Graves cannot follow up since he only has two passives. 1, which gives bonus armor and magic resist for up to 3 seconds out of combat and a cool down for his E that doesn't work on turrets like a certain someone we know. Tristana

This buff does not do more than what Jinx can do. It still costs more and deals less AP damage.

6 Comments

ValyrianBlade4 votes

I stopped reading after you said Jinx had a kit equal to twice of Graves'.

Graves has a dash (which can go over walls). Jinx has no mobility if she doesn't get a kill/assist, and even then it's only a speed burst (admittedly a wicked one, but still). That is huge for a role that needs to kite to survive.

Jinx gets messed up if she's attacked in close quarters. Graves thrives in the middle of a fight.

Graves has BURST. Jinx is better sustained damage for towers.

Graves has an instant slow / vision denial to use for escaping ganks. Jinx has two CC moves that are both insanely easy to dodge, her W gives the most obvious indicator in the game and her E has a huge delay before it activates (on the same magnitude as the Veigar cage delay that made the entire league population freak out about how it made him completely worthless).

Both are strong in their own ways and both have weaknesses.

Definitely NEITHER are in need of any sort of buff though. Jinx recently got a pretty heavy nerf, I was honestly hoping that would mean Graves would be next... (alongside Sivir and Ashe who both seem to be doing really well).

Rew7111 votes

No, you fail to realize that there are somethings about one's kit that are better than another. You say that Graves and Jinx are the same? Here's what I see.

Jinx vs Graves

Passive: Graves gains up to +10/20/30 armor and magic resist over 10 seconds and lasts 3 seconds out of combat. Jinx gains 175% MS if she destroys a turret/structure or kills an enemy for 4 seconds.

Q: Jinx passively gives bonus AS over 3 seconds to gain from 30/40/50/60/70% (+level) and lasts for 2.5 seconds. She can actively deal 10% bonus AD to the one shot, dealing a splash damage, gaining 75/100/125/150/175 range, and allows critical strikes. It costs 20 mana per attack. Graves sends out 3 separate damages, one deals 60/90/120/150/180 (+75% AD) and can deal at maximum 120/180/240/300/360 (+150 AD) if up close to hit with all 3. Costs 60/70/80/90/100 mana and has up to 950 range.

W: Jinx sends out a shock wave that deals 10/60/110/160/210 (+140% AD). Those hit are slowed by 30/40/50/60/70% for 2 seconds. (They are also revealed.) This attack has 1500 range and costs 50/60/70/80/90 mana. Graves sends out a smoke wave that deals 60/110/160/210/260 (+60% AP). Those hit are slowed by 15/20/25/30/35% and have only 675 visual range (enough to still shoot at enemies nearby) for 4 seconds. It's range is also 950. It costs 60/70/80/90/100 mana.

E: Jinx sends out 3 traps near her that if a enemy steps on, they will be dealt 80/135/190/245/300 (+100% AP) damage over the next 2.5 seconds you are also snared. It's range is either 900 or 50, don't really know right now but it only costs 50 mana. Graves slides a distance (which can go over walls as an added bonus) to gain 30/40/50/60/70% AS for 4 seconds. He can only slide up to 425 range and his passive lowers his cool down by 1 second. It costs 40 mana.

R: Jinx sends out her R that deals at minimum 25/35/45 (+10% AD) (+25/30/35% of enemies missing health) and can gain up to 100% bonus damage based on the distance since it is a global ultimate. It costs 100 mana. Graves sends out a powerful shot that deals 250/400/550 (+150% AD) to those in its path and 200/320/440 (+120% AD) damage to those at the end of its 1000 range. It costs 100 mana.

For someone like me, if you can land a W with Graves, you can land a W with Jinx and deal more. I'd also love to have Jinx and that Q because having a Essence Reaver means infanent Q's with no repercussions. That E is way better for ganks, forcing enemies to either flash or go around which allows me the time to flash away. Jinx's R is better since it can deal bonus damage based on lack of health.

Graves is powerful in his own right. He can do things Jinx cannot, like deal that 360 (+150 AD) if up close. Just forget that Jinx can deal 2/3s of that from a much safer distance. Checking for ganks in bushes or in that place where ganks usually start (next to the dragon pit). Being able to slide through a wall is nice, but he still has a 14 second wait for another slide/AS bonus. Not that Jinx has to wait for her (up to) 130% AS bonus that is a compensation for the supposed nerf you said (that only made her broken R stop one hitting anyone up close). Use to go up to 110%. Now, late game Jinx only needs 1 AS bonus item and can just fire away with her powerful abilities like crazy. Its a reason why she is great at destroying turrets so quickly. Her AS bonus stays longer than just 4 seconds. Her slow goes up to 70%, not 35%. Her E at least allows up to 100% AP rather than 60% AP.

You think that I'm just saying all the pluses, and to be honest, its really all I see when I play with/as/against a Jinx. If you main her, you can bypass those quirks easily, just like Blitzcrank mains.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I'm not missing anything...

I pointed out all of graves strengths that jinx has as weaknesses. I'm obviously not just ignoring the existence of jinx' strengths (hence the "jinx is strong, jinx doesn't need a buff" comments).

I'm explaining why you can't possibly say jinx' kit is twice that of graves'.

Their kits are fundamentally different. Possibly the two most different, opposite end of spectrum, kits that exist within the same role in league.

Why is buffing graves' w such a bad idea? He's already a burst adc that has a reliable escape mechanism, and you want to increase damage on one of his skills and give it more utility. Giving more damage to the best burst champion in their role is NOT a good idea.

Landing graves w is mostly about the player's skill, landing jinx' w is mostly about the enemy's lack of skill. Jinx' e similarly is often only good for blocking a jungle pathway, in ganks the enemy should be able to repath to avoid it, or get over it before it activates, losing minimal time.

If you want to argue for a graves buff you should be comparing him to lucien primarily. Alternatives may be tristana or urgot. Compared to any of his comparables, graves is REALLY strong.

TitanOfTheDeep2 votes

....why compare Jinx and Graves? When I think of comparing Graves to someone I always thnk of Lucian as they do have very similar kits, a bursty Q, a weak ap scaling W, a dash for their E and a damaging ult that can finish people off.

Rew7111 votes

I think... you're right. Now I'm on another subject. I think its cool that Lucian's R can deal up to 600/825/1080 (+375/412.5/504% AD) (+150/175/180% AP) if all shots hit the target. That's a lot of damage.

It's also cool how Lucian's abilities barely cost anything.

Lucian isn't strong, based on his numbers, and I've played as Graves more than any other marksman (which is part of the reason for the W buff I want). Unlike Graves, Lucain and Jinx can push out more damage. This is even why I've starting playing as Corki again, and why Tristana was super easy for me to play as. The more damage you are able to send out, the easier it is to clear waves of minions and push to enemies or turrets. I also think the W should (or should I say rather) cost less. 90 mana for a poke, that doesn't really stop my pursuer. It doesn't blind them, it just lowers the amount of vision until they leave.

I've also gotten tired of the generic "by critical and you cannot lose" games. I can honestly, buy pure AD for Graves, and still come out with a score of over 10, under 5 deaths, and maybe some assists. Wish there were more items to chose from.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

You also didn't mention the strong points of graves as specifically as you mentioned Jinx's. By the way Jinx's zap is telegraphed. Graves has a gap closer that also increases his attack speed. His buck shot is capable of quite a bit of burst. Also his smoke Screen reduces vision like nocturnes ulti.. this is a very niche ability as only a few champions have the ability to impair your actual vision during game play. He's also the tankiest adc (aside from urgot) Thanks to his passive true grit. Play graves with a support like taric and have taric get an early aegis. Then you'll surely have the tankiest duo on the rift. His ulti is pretty powerful as well :) Always be sure to take all of a champions strengths and weaknesses into account when comparing them. Or atleast try to. I look forward to your feed back on my opinion ^.^

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