I really don't understand why you're buffing Shyv

HateDaddy·Jun 1, 2015·52 votes·3,622 views

As minor as it is, she's already pretty damn decent. She's actually pretty good in this meta overall and buffing her just makes her even dumber to play against since she's a champion with hardly any decision points and a walking wall of stats. I would prefer she just be left as is, which is actually in a really good spot, as opposed to continually give her small buff after small buff and have her be FoTM again because she's lame as fuck to play against. And I'm quite sure Shyv players don't want their champion to get unnecessary nerfs that make her weaker than before because you think she needs unnecessary buffs.

116 Comments

Linna ExcelJun 1, 201527 votes

At a 41% win rate she's the worst top in the game. She needs help up there. Her jungle win rate of 48% isn't great either.

EffectFXJun 1, 20157 votes

Winrate by itself is an almost meaningless statistic.

ElJanitorFrankJun 2, 20157 votes

Not really. If they're losing more often than winning, they are less powerful than the champions winning more.

There are sketchy variables involved, but generally speaking, a shitty winrate reflects a shitty champion.

EffectFXJun 2, 20154 votes

ANdddddd you're wrong.

ElJanitorFrankJun 2, 20155 votes

Because logic.

You're telling me if a champion had a 0% winrate, they're just as viable as a champion with 60%?

qetzelJun 2, 20152 votes

No. You have to take into account other factors, such as player experience.

Champion.gg gives some nice extra statistics. Take a look at the win rate by games played graph for Shyvana jungle. Buffing that too much could make her oppressive:

http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana/Jungle

ElJanitorFrankJun 2, 20152 votes

I'm not saying that win rate is the be-all-end-all for statistics, I'm just saying they pretty much always represent basic power.

If a champion has a 52% win rate, there's a pretty good chance their more powerful, or more useful than a champion with 48%.

And your website also has a problem of being too specific.

Galio has a 55% win rate top. This is probably due to there being practically nobody playing him top, only the people that frequently do it, and there isn't a large enough variation of skill (bad players) that are doing it. So it's innacurate.

Champion SkinJun 2, 20151 votes

It looks really weird though 1-5 -> 5-15 **increase **in win rate with more games 5-15 -> 15-50 **decrease **in win rate with more games played??? That seems pretty strange... 15-50 -> xx-xx **increase **in win rate with more games played

Hyrum GraffJun 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MOzWEtEp,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-06-02T01:48:07.901+0000)

It looks really weird though 1-5 -> 5-15 **increase **in win rate with more games 5-15 -> 15-50 **decrease **in win rate with more games played??? That seems pretty strange... 15-50 -> xx-xx **increase **in win rate with more games played

If you look at a lot of champions on champion.gg, you'll actually see similar curves: high at 1-5 games, dipping down from 5-15, and then back up again. Sometimes the 125+ also dips lower than you'd expect, likely because of small sample size fluctuations.

My personal guess as to why this happens is that the people in the 1-5 category have only played that champion in a lane as a hard counter. IE, I won 2/2 zilean games in season 4, because I played them both into vayne, and old zilean bullied the crap out of vayne. People who've played 5-15 play the champ into less-than-perfect matchups, but haven't yet mastered them.

EffectFXJun 2, 20152 votes

Your logic is pretty poor.

No champion has ever even gotten remotely close to seeing 0% win rate.
Even champions that have had poor winrates (40% range) would/have see play professional and performed well while actively performing poorly in solo queue.
60% winrate is only meaningful when combined with a high pick rate. Hell once upon a time Poppy had a 100% winrate in challenger, you want to know why? Because she had like 2 games picked. Ermgahd so op.
Win rate HAS to be combined with other statistics to create a clear picture of a a champions strength and overall balance.

ElJanitorFrankJun 2, 20156 votes

What.

it was theoretical, and in theory, is completely true.
Champions' usefulness is completely different when they're on a team that communicates well at a professional level. Rengar used to be the king of solo queue, having very few LCS picks. Because his skills aren't nearly as good in the LCS. The LCS is such a small percentage of players, that winrate doesn't apply to them basically. Most people play solo queue, and most statistics are taken from solo queue. Therefore, the winrate statistics are taken from the majority and apply to the majority.
Again, it was a theoretical scenario. Your point is extremely nit-picky and assuming something that shouldn't have been assumed. I implied they have a high-overall winrate, and with the millions of active users, probably had more that 2 fucking games played
That depends. If you want to make a general statement "X champion is too powerful" then win rate will usually be enough. If they ARE too powerful, they'll have a high winrate to reflect it.

I know that winrate isn't the best thing to go off of 100% of the time, and I know that it's not 100% accurate.

But what I don't know, is the point of your comment. Because all you're doing is saying my logic is wrong and nit-picking me.

EffectFXJun 2, 20151 votes

A pointless theory that has no practical meaning.
LCS is an example that given the appropriate circumstances (player skills, champions picked, meta, etc) even champions regarded as weak can become strong.
If they have a high pick rate, that's exactly what I have been saying. It's more than just win rate. My POINT is that WIN RATE BY ITSELF HAS NO MEANING. As in no pick rate, ban rate, K/D/A, no damage dealt, etc, etc, etc.
No.

My point hasn't changed since my very first post.

vikenJun 2, 20155 votes

Yo, if a champ wins a lot in solo queue, it's a strong champ, if it loses a lot in solo queue, it's not as strong, there's not much to question about it. What's the problem here?

EffectFXJun 2, 20151 votes

Because you can't read apparently. Win rate does not tell you how much a champion is played, it only tells you the how many games are won as a %. 5 wins out of 10 games is a 50% win rate, 50 games won out of a 100 games is still 50% win rate.

I have no idea when English became so difficult.

vikenJun 2, 20155 votes

We're not looking at any champs that only have 10 games played on them god dammit LMAO Let's see, the post is on Shyvana, so lets take a look at her: Top lane Shyvana is out of 3595 games, jungle shyvana is out of 3239 games wouldn't you say that's enough games to get a fair average percentage out of?

EffectFXJun 2, 20152 votes

And even then, winrate only starts to paint a fairly vague picture. The more information you add outside of win rate, the more clear that picture becomes.

SinlaireJun 2, 20154 votes

i think you're just a shyvana hating retard. this is a sample size of nearly 7k games. thats 7,000.

thats seven with 3 zeroes after. i wrote it three (3) different ways to see if that was a number you could comprehend and agree with.

scientists and pharmacists release DRUGS into the MARKET with sample sizes that big. considering it a suitable number for an appropriate grasp of effects positive and negative.

you telling me they cant tell if a fucking champ is UP or OP in a general sense in a size that big?

gg bro

FantasySniperJun 2, 20151 votes

It's basic scientific method to use as many samples as possible. The difference between a drug success/symptom rate and a champion success rate is only in the practical applications of such knowledge. Several of the statistics Champion.gg presents can be ignored because their sample size is less than 1000 games, where it was likely that only a select few players knew what they were doing with the given build/champion.

But when you've got over 3000 games from people in Plat+, you can most certainly trust those statistics to be meaningful.

Win rate + Pick rate + Ban Rate is a pretty good indicator of how easy it is to succeed with a champion over a course of any number of games.

SinlaireJun 2, 20151 votes

drugs and champion balance are the same thing. why?

relevance.

we are talking about sample sizes being an indicator as to the effects and quality of an item.

you're sitting there saying, and i quote, "7k games of shyvana and what else? Ranked? If so what ranks? How many of those are repeat games by the same people? How many 1 time. Players? 7k games spread over how many months? Etc,"

then that means you're looking for relevance.

http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana/Top

relevance. these 7k games we are speaking of are from patch 5.10. the latest patch. these 7k games are also from Plat+** Ranked **games. meaning skill level is high, and sample size has been reduced to among the lowest percentile of the highest skilled players in their Ranked games.

that is 7k of a very low and specific number. we not only have a very dedicated sample size now, but exceptional relevance.

and it shows that shyana players number from brand fucking new, like your brain cells, to players with over 125 games played as her STILL dont average over a 50% win rate with her in either top lane or in the jungle.

that means in a measurement taken with the latest numbers and account for the latest shifts in champions strengths and meta, not even the most experienced players can get her above 50%.

thousands of games, with the most capable players, in the most serious environment, and no one breaks and average 50%.

that, is a certifiable, and relevant, sample size that draws clear indications.

puzzle pieces are in place. now we just need to keep retards like you from eating them in order to make proper changes where due.

EffectFXJun 2, 20151 votes

So basically you agree with everything I've said. Good job there.

Nothing you've stated has done anything to refute my point about win rate by itself being an almost meaningless stat. You've only reinforced my point that you need additional stats for winrate to actually start being valuable.

You can head back to class now and start studying anything that would improve reading comprehension. It'll be good for you.

Slamurai JackJun 3, 20151 votes

The experienced Shyvana's in the jungle actually do quite well, 55% with more than 50 games and 58% with more than 125 games. And that makes sense to me, Shyvana jungle is all about heavy counterjungling, which is an advanced tactic that most junglers don't even attempt, let alone do properly. But if you farm well and counterjungle decently, you pretty much autowin the game if your team hasn't been completely destroyed by then since you'll be up probably 3-4k gold and 2-3 levels on their jungler by 25-30 minutes.

SnugglePuggle94Jun 2, 20151 votes

To hell with that. Just because Shyv has a low win rate doesn't mean she's a shitty champion. It means the player behind her is a SHITTY player, ever think of that? Goodness.

ElJanitorFrankJun 2, 20159 votes

So all the thousands of people playing her were bad?

When your statistics get to a big enough sample, then arguments like that don't work. If there were only 2 people playing her, then yes, I'd agree. But it's just as likely that Shyvanna's opponents were better, worse, DCd, same with her teammates.

That's why ELO hell doesn't exist, because up to a point, if you play enough games, the likelyhood of your opponents failing is just as likely as your teammates.

So no, I didn't think of that, because it gets more and more irrelevant the bigger sampling of games you have to go off of.

qetzelJun 2, 201516 votes

*Mostly meaningless

But you are right. Let's look at slightly more detailed statistics (Pt+ only)

http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana/Top

Notice that the average win rate of players of all experience is below 50%.

http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana/Jungle

Her jungle appears to have a steep learning curve, perhaps attributable to her reliance on counterjunging and fairly weak low level ganks. However, those experienced have an absurdly high win rate.

So we should be careful buffing her lane given how strong her jungling can be. I think there is some leeway though.

EffectFXJun 2, 20152 votes

I am so happy you understand where I'm coming from.

KirafeyJun 2, 20151 votes

My opinion is that she is very versatile ; perhaps a majority I using her versatility wrong. correct me if I am wrong -

She can start on the opposing side and Lv just about as quick as someone with leesh even if caught can make it out with burn out. Well, she can do so much and boost run speed - utilize Magic dmg, burst dmg, boosted stats ect.

BodyByDaveJun 2, 20151 votes

LeeSin way

HateDaddyJun 1, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MOzWEtEp,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-06-01T22:51:38.253+0000)

At a 41% win rate she's the worst top in the game. She needs help up there. Her jungle win rate of 48% isn't great either.

I really don't know how that's compiled but I think it's clearly flawed. Look at any other site that carries these statistics for ranked and gives you the option to separate the winrates by ranks and you'll see over the past month, her winrate in both plat and diamond has been up and down from 41%-50%. It doesn't just statically stay at 41%, it changes a lot. And there's no way she's just at a straight 41% winrate - I just don't buy it. There's definitely very flawed data collecting there or it's extremely misleading. All champions have days where they can drop that low in winrate for a day or two, Shyv isn't different. She jumps up and down between 41% and 50% way too much and there's no way that leaves her at what I'd be comfortable saying a 41% winrate.

Believe me when I say she's extremely strong in top lane at the moment, even post challenging smite nerf. she has 3 difficult match ups: Renekton (who isn't even a champion anymore), Gnar and Vlad. And against both of them, she has room to play around and benefits largely from having extremely high base damages (keep %HP dmg in mind) and builds pure tank while being impossible to kite (Gnar can only kite her if he lands Qs, which Shyva burnout gives her MS making it easier to dodge).

She's not weak, she's probably not even overbearing either. She's exactly where she needs to be.

SexyTaylorSwiftJun 2, 20153 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana

This site is probably what he is using. She is 41% win rate in top lane. Her play rate is pretty low, which means the win rate is sort of important, at least in my opinion. I think she is fine, to be honest. I'm not sure why her rate is so low lol. I agree that she will become strong if buffed. There are a shit ton of champs that actually need buffed to be viable. Rito plays favs, though. Prob got a Shyv skin coming out soon.

Auz the RipperJun 2, 20156 votes

Her winrate is low because the current peel-heavy meta doesn't favor her. Damage tanks like her and Mundo are disadvantaged currently because their role is to stick to squishies, outlast, and kill them. The sheer amount of peel that's currently in the meta stops that first step and so she can't proceed to the second two steps. And because she has little CC, she can't do much else

Only Play DariusJun 2, 20152 votes

She shouldn't be top. She was meant to jungle.

TheI3igDaddyJun 2, 20153 votes

Quite a few champs in this game don't do what they were -meant- to do.

Shyv has no mana, brainless waveclear, and strong dueling, complete with a GetOutofJail free card in her ult if things go hairy. Top laners looooove those qualities.

Only Play DariusJun 2, 20153 votes

And that is literally exactly why they can't buff her. If they buff tank junglers even the slightest bit too much, then they just end up going top instead.

It's exactly what happened to Hecarim , they buffed his mana costs to help him jungle. What do people do? They just abuse the buffs and take him top so he can Q all day and never run out of mana. The exact same thing happened with Maokai , they buffed him to help him out jungling, people just take him top instead and now no one even remembers that he was intended to be a jungler.

Ever fought Rengar top? His entire theme SCREAMS jungler, but people are actually taking him top to abuse his lack of resources and insane lvl 2 all-in. Funny thing is, that his winrate top is 52%, while his winrate jg is 48%. They can't buff his jungling, because if they do then he becomes invincible top like pre-nerf Maokai Hecarim .

Champion SkinJun 2, 20156 votes

Well if they really want to buff jungle they can add things like some abilities deal X(%) increased damage to monsters

SnugglePuggle94Jun 2, 20152 votes

Top is one of her best lanes. Are you on crack or something? There are tons of champs that aren't meant for certain lanes that play them anyway, but Shyv is still meant to play top. Do you think she's meant to go mid besides jungle? No. Top is where she belongs against other tanks where she can punch the daylight out of em.

BluePolarizerJun 1, 20155 votes

Shyvana is literally the worst top laner in the game and one of the worst junglers next to Elise. I only play her because her tankiness, huge sustained damage and ability to take Exhaust wrecks assassins, while her ability to build BoRK and mixed damage is good against tanks. Otherwise there's no reason to play her either top or jungle over Hecarim, who does the same thing but better.

HateDaddyJun 1, 201513 votes

{quoted}

Shyvana is literally the worst top laner in the game and one of the worst junglers next to Elise.

Are you out of your mind?

And why would you jungle Shyv? Are you stuck in season 2?

BluePolarizerJun 1, 20155 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana

she is the worst top laner in the game with a 41% win rate and overall one of the worst champions in the game. Her jungle win rate is higher btw, but still at around old Urgot level, though higher than new Ryze.

HateDaddyJun 1, 20154 votes

{quoted}

http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana

she is the worst top laner in the game with a 41% win rate.

Yeah sorry, don't trust those stats. When I look through Lolking and her monthly winrate in plat and diamond, her winrate fluctuates from 41%-50%, which suggests what I said in my OP: she's an incredibly binary champion with very little decision making required. Buffing her is stupid, nobody enjoys playing against her. Give her a rework that makes her less cancer.

SnugglePuggle94Jun 1, 20152 votes

She doesn't need nerfed, and is fine just as is. She isn't cancer and is a very good champion. Just because her win rate is mediocre doesn't mean its her as a champ, it's also the player behind her and how well they do. Goodness.

BluePolarizerJun 1, 20155 votes

stats shown are for plat+ elo. its not the player behind her because you can say that for any champ.

BakedLotionJun 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Are you out of your mind?

And why would you jungle Shyv? Are you stuck in season 2?

How is jungle shyv bad? She can still clearly really fast and can actually gank with blue smite + exhaust if she brings it.

Yeah it's not great, but its certainly viable and an ok choice, and not bad

HateDaddyJun 1, 20155 votes

{quoted}

How is jungle shyv bad? She can still clearly really fast and can actually gank with blue smite + exhaust if she brings it.

Yeah it's not great, but its certainly viable and an ok choice, and not bad

Because being able to clear fast doesn't make you a great jungler unless you're looking to farm forever, which there are better choices than Shyv. There are better choices to counter jungle with. And there are much better choices when it comes to ganking. Olaf is basically a better version of Shyv in the jungle.

Now, does that means she's bad perse? Probably not, sucks is probably a harsh way to describe it. She falls into one of those "well yeah it's good but why Shyv when you can [insert champion here]."

lDontLiftIcarryJun 2, 20155 votes

she's actually shit against over buffed adc items. and anyone with cc/gap closer. But ok...

She also was nerfed a long time ago because she became meta. her W and E base damage nerf (mostly the W) was actually more than enough to remove her from being played. Shyvana top lane is just AD singed, burn you down and split push, show up to fights that matter eventually.

Shyvana jungle is just a farm fest and dragon control with decent aoe and a back line destrupter that's potent if paired with decent CC on your team. basically you just play her as a high damage bruiser. I've always tried to get an early phage to stick to targets. Now that black cleaver has been reworked I just buy phage. Get blade of the ruined king, then get black cleaver. And then go full tank items after that. It's a solid build, obviously not as strong on her as other bruisers but her tanky stats let her stay alive longer compared to other bruisers with the same build so I like it for her. Its a unique jungle style but It works when you pick it correctly. got a 72% winrate with it atm.

ProfirixJun 2, 20153 votes

While I admire the black cleaver choice, the problem stems from her doing about 75% magic damage. Her E debuff, her W, and her R do MAGIC damage. It's so wonky that building pen on her is really not worth it.

RaxicorJun 2, 20155 votes

I'm sad that its not including any tweaks to her ult.

ProfirixJun 2, 20152 votes

She really does need some serious work done on her ult.

TwitchInMyPantsJun 2, 20155 votes

If "decent" means "not worth picking over other balls of stats(bruisers) that actually have cc and similar damage" then yes that's exactly what shyvana is.

She hasn't been decent since melee tanks with weak early were toplane. All she does is push/pressure which is a lot more useful in the jungle than lane but in jungle why would you pick her over someone like Rek'Sai who's also a manaless jungler who roams all over diving and pressuring lanes but actually has some cc and poke to speak of? Or any jungler that has cc in general?

Linna ExcelJun 2, 20151 votes

I think it's her lack of CC that's her kit's needed flaw, but why her winrates/pick rates are an issue. She's not quite good enough for top where she could get away with not having CC and as a tanky jungler, no one will pick you if you don't have CC.