His passive is literally: here you can snowball really hard. So why doesnt he have a huge winrate right now? The game times are really short and the game is about snowballing early advantages. So why isnt draven taking advantage of this? Why are corkie and graves the kings?
I dont think draven is in the right spot rn. If he cant take advantage of this meta, what is his meta?
xl Kirito lx5 votesDraven is known for having incredibly high damage output, while requiring good positioning and micro managing his axes. Corki and Graves are known for having incredibly high damage output. They're also AOE, and have good assassination potential. I'm not saying Dravens weak by any means, but he's slightly outclassed by other ADC's right now.
Gunpoint5 votesDraven's damage isn't something to scoff at, but it's just not that much more than Lucian, Graves, and most definitely Corki. It goes without saying that Draven is a lot harder than those champions.
D3m37r12 votesThis. Also i feel like he doesn't synergize as well with any of the keystone masteries as the other adcs.
Warlords is ok with the lifesteal but do you really need more atk speed?
Fervor is bad in my opinion because its for champs like 
who auto alot which draven wont be doing unless its a tank.
The movement speed from stormraiders can mess up the axe juggling (plus u got w so it's redundant)
So everyone just goes thunderlords. But which other champ in the game procs thunderlords using ONLY autos? I can't really think of any.
Bodkins Odds1 votesWarlord's hasn't given AS in a while, it's just lifesteal that gets bigger the lower your health is.
D3m37r11 votesU do realize that this post was made before the change right?
Bodkins Odds1 votesI didn't when I posted. Somehow this thread made it to the front page, and I didn't notice that it was two months old.
D3m37r11 votesThat has been happening recently.It confuses me too.
Noksterz4 votesDraven's damage used to outclass every other adc.....but after the adc reworks it just doesn't anymore. Lucian, MF, Graves, can all keep up with him now. Also something is still weird with the minion block in my opinion, which makes it hard to catch axes properly at times. And also in this assassin/juggernaut meta...anyone can easily get on top of him and he cant do anything about it. Draven needs peel, and it seems there is less of it in games now than before. I dont think Dravens numbers got compensated properly during the adc rework to make him useful. He NEEDS to have much higher dps with his axes to be good, and right now he hasnt been given the extra bump he needs to those numbers.
Sir Yamazuki3 votesHarder to play than Lucian or Ezreal.
ValyrianBlade3 votesBecause Draven, and to a far lesser extent Jinx, mains get completely screwed by Riot.
Go look at ADCs. Look at the playerbase average games.
If every champion were perfectly balanced, then win rates would only vary by player experience, and the champions with the highest average games played would have the highest win rates.
Of course, this isn't true. Draven and Jinx both look "balanced" at their 51% win rates despite having more than double the games played of most other ADCs (aside from Vayne, because we know what happens when Vayne is strong...).
In reality, Draven REALLY needs a buff. Jinx needs a small buff. Yes, they seem strong to most people - that's because the person you're playing against is often better at Draven/Jinx than you are on your ADC!
It sickens me to see champions like Corki, Ezreal, Kog'maw with (19/27/11) average games having higher win rates than Jinx and Draven at 74 and 86.
Lugg2 votesI would like to address this from the perspective of a support main.
First off, Riot has NEVER screwed over Jinx since release. She is a hyper carry whose "supposed" weakness is lack of mobility. This is some kind of sick joke considering her "weakness" is completely negated by her Chompers and passive if you play her correctly. While she isn't as dominate as she was before, she is still one of the top 5 ADCs in the game.
Draven is a little more complicated. I personally think he is the most mechanically demanding ADC in the game. He takes a LOT of practice to master, but the reward is well worth it. I honestly can't ever remember losing lane supporting a good Draven player. We pretty much crush any enemy team comp bottom, with the only exception being a Kalista/Tank bottom. Even then we still have won. The key with him is to take an aggressive all-in support and then get the level 2-3 cheese kill. This does gets him WAY ahead due to the kill itself and the cash in he gets from his passive. At this point (unless you majorly screw up) you have already won the lane.
The reason his win rate isn't higher is that it's dragged down by the players who haven't gotten him down yet and the supports who don't understand how he works. This causes his play rate to be much lower than other ADCs since most players don't want to put in the effort required to get good with him. It's much easier to learn Corki, Ez, etc. than to learn Draven.
That's what I have seen from the three plus years I have played so far.
Woook3r2 votesThe reason his win rate isn't higher is that it's dragged down by the players who haven't gotten him down yet. His average number of games played is 86. That means that he is mostly played by people extreemly experienced with him. Not by free week ppl who play him once and feed.
Corkie has 18 average games played. That means he gets played by people with little corkie experience. Yet his win rate is higher than dravens.
So when you say dravens win rate is dragged down by inexperience, that flies in the face of the fact that he is predominately played by die hard draven mains like me. How many games do you have on draven. If its more than me then maybe you do know somethiing about the cahmpino. Otherwise you know shit ab draven and probably suck at this game to boot.
Lugg1 votesIf you look closer at the numbers, 68% of people who have played Draven have less than 50 games on him. He definitely requires much more practice than pretty much any other ADC in the game, so that will definitely bring his win rate down significantly. The win rate for players with over 50 games is around 53%, which isn't too shabby at all. Add into the equation that Draven is the #1 ADC for gold earned and you can see that Draven isn't the really problem. He just seems weak because several ADCs are absolutely broken at the moment.
Riot doesn't need to buff Draven, they need to balance the other ADCs around him. The Corki example you gave is proof of this. He is a poke ADC who has mixed damage so it's very hard to itemize against him. That is why he recently go nerfed, he was too strong. No Riot just has to do the same to other ADCs and Draven's win rate will definitely go up without a single buff.
Woook3r1 votesDont bring up the number of people who have played "less than 50 games" number unless you give that same number for a couple of other adc's. If anywhere close to 30% of ppl have played MORE than 50 games with him, then thats a huge fucking number, im willing to bet. Corkies average num games played is about 18. AVERAGE number. That means that the number of ppl playing him for than 18 games cant be more than 50% of ppl. 18 games is less than 50 games right?
Edit: Lol I just looked at corkies pie chart. Basically no one mains corkie
How many games have you played with draven in the past month? You shouldn't be commenting on his balance unless you actually play him. You cant even encounter him in your own games often enough to know anything about him unless you actually play him frequently yourself.
Lugg1 votesCorki is pretty easy to get down, especially considering Draven. So of course the number will be way lower.
As for how many games I've played with Draven, a few dozen at best. I just never liked his style of play and there are plenty of ADCs more fun in my opion.
However you must be one of those people who thinks that you can't learn a champion from playing against them or with them in lane. I have played against and with Draven probably close to a thousand times. So from playing, supporting, and against him, I'd say I have a very good grasp of him.
MaeDoSan1 votesThats the point u dont understand ..... there is no fckin reward for learning draven . To be efficient as the other adcs on draven means u have to flat out be a better adc and also an experienced draven player .
Lugg1 votesI have to really disagree with you on that. A good Draven player is VERY hard to beat unless you have a support who has CC they can use when Draven goes to catch an axe.
I LOVE supporting a good Draven player since we win lane 90% of the time.
I do agree that Draven is probably the hardest ADC to get down, but once you do, he is a force to be reckoned with.
MaeDoSan1 votesu dont get it coz u dont play draven.... i am not asking for more dmg im asking for a way for draven to do meaningful dmg to tanks, his bleed helped him but they removed that i guess they should bring it back with a percentage health scaling so that it is insignificant on squishes but helps draven kill tanks
Lugg1 votesWith 
Draven can melt tanks pretty fast since his damage is so high.
MaeDoSan1 votesTell me that if u have done it urself
Lugg1 votesI've had it done to me many times when playing tanks. If he is too the point where he can get a LW, he can melt through pretty much any tank in 5 seconds or less. Draven gets 85% bonus damage with his Q maxed out. That more than overcomes any armor the tank may be stacking. Don't forget that he has some of the highest AD ratios on his abilities in the game.
MaeDoSan1 votesAgain u dont get the point, playing draven and playing against draven are two different matters
ValyrianBlade1 votesI think the overall experience of every platinum+ player in the entirety of League is more credible than your individual experience.
Jinx is 10th in win rate, 9th in play rate, among all ADCs (18 in total, so she's right at the midpoint despite being the 3rd most played after Draven and Vayne). Her win rate only slightly improves when you only consider people with 50+ games on her (about 0.5% higher win rate, 51.6%).
Draven is 11th by win rate and 12th by pick rate. Now, to be completely fair, his win rate does improve by a lot more at even the 15-50 games spot (to a bit over 52%). He's still far behind the charts for the other ADCs I mentioned though.
Back to Jinx, she was very strong in season 5, but she's definitely not strong now. Try actually playing her before you claim her weakness doesn't exist - as someone who has played her I NEVER have had a problem playing against her - even at the height of her dominance in season 5.
If you can get in her face, she's dead. It's pretty simple. Her chompers take 0.7 seconds to arm within a small range that can easily be walked around anywhere outside of the smallest jungle passages.
Since you've been around so long, I trust you remember when Veigar's cage was changed from 0 to 0.75 seconds to arm, yes? His cage is not only thicker and longer ranged than Jinx' chompers, it also is a full cage that can easily trap someone inside. Yet when it had the 0.75 second delay the entirety of the boards was up in arms over how brokenly weak Veigar was. He was considered worthless, his win rate was around 40%. They've since improved it to 0.5 second delay which has brought him back in to relevance, but he's still considered a weak pick (33rd of 46 mid laners by win rate, 31 by play rate).
So why is it players have so much trouble not getting caught by Jinx' chompers when it was, and I quote from the time, "impossible to catch anyone with Veigar's cage on a 0.75 second delay" when his cage is so considerably larger than Jinx's chompers? And it's because players respect Veigar's cage, but they don't respect Jinx's chompers and get punished for that mistake repeatedly. Her enemies frankly suck at avoiding them. When against Jinx, I only ever get caught in her chompers if they're chained after another CC. When I play as Jinx, my chompers hit their intended target the majority of the time. It's not Jinx being strong, it's the enemy not reacting appropriately.
With a good amount of peel on your team and the enemy team lacking hard engage or assassins, Jinx is definitely a force to be reckoned with. That's the same as saying that Master Yi is strong against a team with no hard CC though. Saying Jinx is strong enough because she can dish out loads of damage in her ideal composition isn't fair - she should also be favored by this meta (a snowbally ADC who is amazing at team fights and doesn't mind enemies stacking defenses) but instead is passed over by half of the ADC lineup despite her mains playing her far more than other ADCs can ask for.
Draven goes to the same degree. He should be the top tier ADC right now in this meta. The fact that he isn't says he isn't strong enough. I wouldn't want his early game to be stronger, but a late-game buff wouldn't be terrible for him (e.g. + 0 / 50 / 100 damage on his ultimate at ranks 1 / 2 / 3). Jinx should get back some of her lost attack speed (not bringing her back to S5, leave the ultimate change and only give back part of the AS).
Lugg1 votesWin rate isn't everything. That's why they also have a performance ranking where Jinx is ranked #7 out of the 18 ADCs. Sounds like she is doing pretty good to me.
I have played her enough to know what I am talking about. Yeah, her Chompers have a slight delay to arm and that's why you have to take that into account before placing them. Yeah, you can walk around them, but once again if she placed them right she still gets away. If you don't get away, it's because you either placed them wrong or you were pushed up too far without vision. Those are the players fault and have nothing to do with the strength of the champion.
Also trying to compare her Chompers to the Veigar cage is comparing apples and oranges. Veigar is a burst mage who will instantly kill anyone who gets stunned. Chompers are a root and Jinx is a damage over time champ. So you can still do things while rooted and since she takes longer to kill you than Veigar, you have options to still live.
Jinx doesn't need a single buff at all. She is quite fine where she is right now. If you look at the top 3 ADCs right now (Ez, Corki, Kog), you realize that they all have one thing in common, mixed damage which is very hard to itemize against. Riot just needs to figure out how to balance that better in the game and I guarantee that Jinx would be one of the top 5 ADCs again without a single buff.
The same is true for Draven, nerf the top ADCs and he would easily be in the top third again without any buffs at all.
Ellphi3 votes'Snowball' doesn't necessarily come from gold income alone, some champions just put out a lot of pressure without being super fed, Draven isn't really one of them because he's incredibly easy to kill or at least zone out of a fight
Ez/Lux are strong AF right now because they have incredible presence due to their safety and harass, it lets them snowball objectives because the other team can't engage on them and they can't sustain the harass either
Sona Ping1 votes'Snowball' doesn't necessarily come from gold income alone, some champions just put out a lot of pressure without being super fed, Draven isn't really one of them because he's incredibly easy to kill or at least zone out of a fight
Ez/Lux are strong AF right now because they have incredible presence due to their safety and harass, it lets them snowball objectives because the other team can't engage on them and they can't sustain the harass either
Uhm, What?
I get that a person might have that opinion about Ez, and "strong AF" is pretty vague in what it denotes, 50% win rate in Diamond is a lot better than Kalista's after all. But how can you honestly say that little Miss. stiff competition against Illaoi for the title of Worst Performing Female Champion in the game, is "strong AF" right now?
Alsek1 votesDraven's passive isn't, "you can snowball really hard."
It's, "you MUST snowball if you want to win." He's balanced around his passive. A kill on him from a gank prior to him getting his first kill in lane basically means his mid game will be awful.
You don't want to be playing something that relies on getting a kill before you're killed in a snowbally burst meta. Some other ADCs outclass him for early damage now and/or have the ability to pick their trades with him due to mobility. If mid lane snowballs first (and it usually does) there's a good chance the gank from their mid laner will get you killed before you manage to take out a Lucian, MF, Graves, corki, or ezreal as draven.
Woook3r2 votesI mean, isnt that contradictory? His passive is more like a liability. He is given some "negative balance factors" that offset his passive that come at a huge cost in the one meta that you would expect him to excel at?
Id rather just have no passive at all, and get him some extra range OR a MS buff OR make his axes fall faster and closer and always ontop of him if stationary dpsing.
Half the time, I cant snowball harder than a solo laner even with the passive. I usually have to wait until i get bfs for a kill. The top laner usually gets a lvl 3 kill in my games and has plenty of time for more kills. If I get an early kill, its not because im good. Its because they stink and just feed me. That usually makes me unhappy btw. Id rather play against good opponents.
Maybe his passive can be, "draven has 75 extra range" just like diana has "diana has x% bonus attack speed" lol. Or a spell shield passive. Every 60 seconds draven removes cc upon activating w. If no cc is removed passive is refreshed. Catching an axe lowers this cooldown by .25, .5, 1 seconds at lvl 1, 6 and 11.
Alsek1 votesIt's not contradictory. That was my whole point. Draven's passive is too much of a liability to be played in this meta. [slayer-jinx-catface]
Woook3r3 votesYea. but i mean that his passive actually hurts him rather than helps him. thats whats contradictory. when does jinx's passive hurt her? Or kog maws? Or blitz?
I think the balance team is political in nature and theres just not enough love for draven to give him what he needs.
Alsek1 votesThe answer is really just that some are and some aren't like this. Riot often uses passives to round out champion kits that just need a little something extra, or a gait to their power.
Lots of passives gait a champion's power. The AS part of Jinx's passive is absolutely a gait. They nerfed her Q rocket AS and moved into into her passive excited stacks.
Azir's passive used to require him to build CDR even if he didn't want it.
Some passives, however, are not like this. Kog's ult is nothing but a benefit to him. He is, in no way, encouraged to die to use it. But he can choose to turn around and fight if he believes he's going to die anyways to lower the enemies health enough to get a revenge kill with the 300 or so true damage.
Whether you look at them as plusses or minuses is your own deal but this is one of the reasons you probably don't want to play draven ATM. But tbh, an auto scaling, auto snowballing draven would be horrifying.
Woook3r1 votesTheres nothing wrong with what you are saying. But if the champion with a snowball passive is at a disadvantage in the meta where snowballing is really strong, then something is wrong with that. Its just poisonous.
Alsek1 votesIn a meta where no one else is snowballing draven can be really powerful because he's the only one doing it. Draven is better against late game marksman because he can bully them early and snowball into a monster in time to hold his ownagainst them in the late game.
But this is the opposite of that. He's going up against things that can hold their own against him in lane. He can't bully other lane bullies as effectively and that's prettymuch all that's getting played bot.
Also, every other lane is snowbally to. Bot lane levels slower than everywhere else because it's a duo (shared experience) lane. You trying to snowball against high mobility champs bot doesn't matter when their top or mid laner have 2-3 kills before you even get your first. You have to think about the whole map.
He's a counter late game hypercarry pick. This is definitely not his meta.
Woook3r2 votesI hear what you are saying, and i dont think he fills that fantasy. How is a stronger lane bully like lucian not going to do the same exact job, but better? If a strong lane bully is needed in that meta, wont the strongest bully be the best? Not only that, but draven doesnt have the means to dominate the lane in the early phase which is where you would naturally take advantage of the hpyer carry. He needs the bfs to really get something done. And you can get that at lvl 4 at the earliest.
So he be should waiting until lvl 4-6 when the lane is more even? To beat a hyper carry, I would think you need to come out of the gates dominating them, and minion dmg alone prevents draven from doing that. His axe gives 35 dmg lvl 1. minions can potentially do about 15-20 dmg in return. Trade autos lvl 1 + an ability and its an even trade. Thats not a bully.
Alsek1 votesDraven has the best, non skillshot reliant, level 1 damage of any ADC in the game for a sustained fight or trade. If you can use his kit to bully a late game hypercarry in game you're playing him wrong.
In this meta, everything is squishy, so burst damage (what corki or Graves put out) is fine. Ideal even. Draven is sustained damage, which means his role late game is that he's better than burst champions at killing tanks. But again, that's only if he can get fed off of, oh say a Jinx early game.
He's a very high risk, high reward champion. If you play him well you can be a lane bully AND a late game carry capable of doing tons of damage to tanks. That's a HUGE advantage. His weakness is that you can shut him down if you kill him before he kills anyone else.
Again, all of this relies on a tank/hyoercarry meta which S6 is definitely not.
Woook3r2 votesHis weakness is low range and lack of mobility and overall safety.
His second weakness is that if he drops an axe he has BELOW average dps.
His third weakness is that he telegraphs his position and you can just aim cc at the spot he needs to be one second ahead of time.
His fourth weakness is that you can ruin his entire game by killing him ONCE. Combine this with the first weakness and its a syndrome of a poorly designed kit, not counterplay.
His fifth weakness is that he cant stand still and dps. Random axe displacement if not moving.
His sixth weakness is that his axes will often bug and you just cant catch them, but now im just bitching.
Yes he does have more dps lvl 1. So why doesnt he just all in lvl one and win every lane?
Because he has the best dmg by a very small margin at lvl 1. He out trades you by only 35 dmg auto per auto. One auto attack plus one ability out trades his first auto by 35 dmg for your average 60 base dmg ability. If he throws a second auto he will be ahead by an amount equal to his attack dmg. Another auto from you sets the trade at zero. If he takes minion aggro he can easily loose the trade.
I know to use the trading stance to take advantage of things, but i find it a bit hard to do at 550 units because that puts me right on top of the buggy ass caster minons. They are always moving around and getting in my way. I just collide with them and draven derps in a circle a lot of the time making me vulnerable to a cc or ability.
I dont think that adding the 75 units I need to be farther behind my minons while trading would break him. I think that would just be what he needs to give a proper return on his 4 MAJOR weaknesses..
Alsek1 votesNot that you should be standing still on an ADC anyways unless you're Kog'Maw... But...
You do realize he's a God tier mechanics required ADC, right? He's supposed to be extremely difficult to play. He's not supposed to be a strong champ in lower elo ever. Think of him like Azir. Very high skill required for entry and a lot of payoff if you can do it right.
Woook3r1 votesAnd thats why his win rate plat + is so average?
Alsek1 votesFirst of all, are you plat? Do you have plat level mechanics and/or orb walking skill? Then why compare?
Secondly, since it's obvious you're looking at champion.gg, look at his playrate distribution. He has a smaller group of dedicated players who play him a LOT. That's a huge wedge of people who have played him 125+ games compared to a normal champ. Someone who has played him that many games and has the skill to be in plat is going to skew the win rate.
Heimer has a higher than average winrate but so few people play him either. Doesn't mean heimer is OP or that a new heimer player is going to do very well at all.
Woook3r1 votes"Secondly, since it's obvious you're looking at champion.gg, look at his playrate distribution. He has a smaller group of dedicated players who play him a LOT. That's a huge wedge of people who have played him 125+ games compared to a normal champ. Someone who has played him that many games and has the skill to be in plat is going to skew the win rate."
Thats my argument, friend. He is a champion that should reward skill and experience with higher lvls of power. Most people that play draven have lots of games with him. That SHOULD skew dravens winrate to be higher than average. BUT IT DOESNT AND SO HIS WINRATE IS DECIDEDLY MEH.
In addition, draven doesnt do "well in a tank meta" because he doesnt do well with blade of the ruined king. If you think his spinning axe helps him dps tanks then you are wrong and laughably so. They do about 40-70 extra dmg per axe to a tank and thats not noticable from a hp pool of 4k. Esp when axes are available to be thrown at a rate of 2 per second.
Draven would do well in a kitable bruiser meta, but so would all adc's and btw there are a ton of bruisers who arent kitable at all when they are ahead. Fiora, riven, renekton. Do you even play this champion? No, you dont. Stop acting like you know how to play him.
Alsek1 votesThis is turning into a hilarious circle jerk. I used to play exclusively Kog'Maw before his rework so I understand the idea of something being rewarding because it's hard to pull off but powerful when you do.
I also played some draven S5.
Read the context. We were talking about win rates.
I stand by my opinion on draven. He works best in a NOT burst, NOT snowball meta because it means he has something other champs don't have. No point picking the snowball champ when everyone else can snowball too. That? And draven's best lanes are all immobile late game hypercarries which barely exist right now. He can beat them up in lane and still outdo them for damage later if he can juggle 3 axes in a team fight.
Woook3r1 votesMf passive-auto, q, auto. Outtrades draven. Vayne auto q auto can go even with draven. Lucain auto q passive auto outtrades draven. Hes only at an advantage when he cant accrue minion aggro and is in a spot where he can get about 4-6 axes in. 4 is enough to make someone back 6 will almost kill anyone.
When does that actually happen lvl 1? You cant make that happen because he doesnt have waveclear and you honestly dont want to be pushing the wave that hard. I saw it happen once in a weird situation where he came to lane after doing a camp and there were only 3 caster minons sitting there. He didnt even get the kill, despite nami landing her bubble on the enemy adc. He got the heal and flash tho. So yea, when the stars align man.
Bronze is a tank engage meta rn. Hes got no mobility so the engage meta isnt good for him. I thnk you overestimate draven. His winrate and play rate and overall average payer exp agrees with me not you. Why doesnt he have a good winrate in bronze. Thats his meta right?
Alsek1 votesI very, very specifically said extended trades and fights. Burst ALWAYS beats sustained damage over short periods of time. That's the point of burst.
You want a Leona, morg, braum, thresh, or anything else that can lock them down so that they can't just burst you and walk away. You want the trade to last until just before their CDs for their one ability they have leveled come back up.
Also, when I said you should be able to outdamage a hypercarry level one? The champions you listed are not late game hypercarries. They're lane bullies. I already explained why playing draven against them is a bad idea. That's the thesis of my whole argument of why you ought to not play draven in this meta.
Draven is a late game carry that gets to beat up other late game caries in lane. That doesn't mean he wants to play against strong lane bullies himself.
Woook3r1 voteshttp://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=bottom-synergy&range=daily&map=sr&queue=normal
Draven actually has meh stats with all of the supports you mentioned. Hes got better synergy with sona and jana.
Siyther1 votesi play a lot of adc and i play draven every time he is free and run into the same problem with him every time. His passive is a liabilty if you cant get the gold bonus off an early kill. He requires so much micro managing that it is just not worth the time to put in on him. If he doesnt have an axe spinning he doesnt do shit for damage and the fact that the axe "catch position" is shown to the opponent is a major hinderance. Try to catch an axe get cc'ed, it feels bad man.If your not much more skilled than your opponent he is hard to win with. Low attack range , damage depends on catching a telegraphed abilty, and if behind you are totally useless. That is why i refuse to buy him as an adc. I will play urgot b4 i play Draven.
Woook3r1 votesI just think catching the axes is fun. And i spent so much time trying to get good with him that I would be sad to hang him up.
