Lulu's ban rate is on pre-nerf zed's lvl now

Ahristocats·Apr 1, 2017·13 votes·1,784 views

https://i.gyazo.com/00a936ce41b8d7e5e3b59909b39a2edf.png https://i.gyazo.com/bfe42693c460aee990874ca245150505.png But guys why would you ever ban a balanced champion

54 Comments

RaoulApr 1, 20178 votes

"Hey, remember that role noone plays?" "Support?" "Yeah that one. Lets make one of the few actually fun and impactfull choises for this role our new target for Forum hate so people will ban her and maybe RIOT will nerf her." "YEAH THATS AWESOME! Fuck Support players, they dont deserve fun like we do!"

AhristocatsApr 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

"Hey, remember that role noone plays?"

yeah i remember that role played by the majority of master tier players xd

"i can't play support, it means the role sucks riot pls"

NymzoApr 1, 20172 votes

Is there that many support players in Master?

That... seem almost impossible considaring how popular the solo lanes are.

AhristocatsApr 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That... seem almost impossible considaring how popular the solo lanes are.

i just queued support+adc in my last game and got adc

NymzoApr 1, 20171 votes

That... doesn't mean anything

I got filled many times recently, and I'm in low diamond.

Yet I'm pretty sure if we had any stats, Im pretty sure support would still be less popular, even in master.

AhristocatsApr 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yet I'm pretty sure if we had any stats, Im pretty sure support would still be less popular, even in master.

i know more support mains than any other mains in the role yes it doesn't mean anyhing but you can't know if support is less popular or more popular in high elo, you can just have view on it and i see a lot of support mains

NymzoApr 1, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MEzrnWrl,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-01T17:05:37.663+0000)

i know more support mains than any other mains in the role

I'm not really sure we can consider that a proof, especially with all your Sona threads from the past weeks where you probably had to find proofs which is why you talked to other support mains in master...

Not even mentionning IRL friends or people from the Board that you may have played with it thought I may be stretching it out a little bit.

yes it doesn't mean anyhing but you can't know if support is less popular or more popular in high elo, you can just have view on it and i see a lot of support mains

I mean, autofill was introduced for a reason, you know. Queues time would take forever in high elo and you can guess why? For the same reason that teambuilder got removed: lack of players that play support.

Sahn UzalApr 1, 20174 votes

''Most People prefer to play selfish roles over Support, that must mean it's impossible for a support champion to be overpowered''

IcyPepperApr 1, 20171 votes

Yeah, true. There are two sides to this coin

Bronze II Yasuo Apr 1, 20175 votes

I asked you awhile ago besides win rate, ban rate and play rate can you use a core argument in terms of what makes this champion so broken. Yet you failed to reply to my comment because you actually have no reasonable suggests towards Lulu all your threads do is just complain about those three and don't provide any useful feedback on what maybe the devs could change.

AhristocatsApr 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I asked you awhile ago besides win rate, ban rate and play rate can you use a core argument in terms of what makes this champion so broken. Yet you failed to reply to my comment

i didn't fail, you just didn't understand anything

Lulu is the best lane bully since her passive buff and ends up being the best support to nullify a juggernaut/assassin/diver anyone going for your carry

which is why no one wants to see her in a game, she's just broken with 52% win rate there is no reasons to not pick lulu when she does the 2 things above

RaoulApr 1, 20172 votes

you are correct, there is no reason to not pick Lulu, because most other support champions plain SUCK!

AhristocatsApr 1, 20172 votes

oh yeah, i'm sorry if most supports don't have 70% ban rate, 52% win rate, 20% pick rate

they're ahem you know, balanced

RaoulApr 1, 20175 votes

Just because only a few support champions are worth picking doesnt mean they are OP, it means the rest is underpwoered.

AhristocatsApr 1, 20172 votes

not sure if you're trolling

but if a support is worth banning over rengar, kha'zix, Lucian who are all broken right now, it straight up means the support is broken

RaoulApr 1, 20174 votes

So, supports should be so weak noone would even consider baning them from a game?

JVP15Apr 1, 20172 votes

As a support main, you have a point. Supports as a whole, if everything was nice and good, should be banned 1/5 times. Just like top, jungle, mid, and bot. The only support I see banned by someone who isn't me is Blitz, and it isn't because he is OP. I for one would love to see more supports get banned because it means that they are taken as a serious threat, or at least annoying enough that nobody wants to play against them (Teemo). Frankly, Lulu falls into that second category for me, but statistically speaking, it is better to ban Thresh because of his high play rate.

AhristocatsApr 1, 20171 votes

No one should be permabanned, sorry to burst your bubble

RaoulApr 1, 20172 votes

Just to make it clear how much you can trust board hate: Remember old Evelynn? I talk way old, open Beta, early Season one. The one with a stun. She was called underpowered for the longest time, picking her was considered trolling in the forum, I made alot of threads defending her, telling people shes actually very strong, noone cared, my threads got downvoted. Then, without any real buff, the opinion suddendly changed, now she was considered gamebreaking op. Every thread that she had counterplay now got downvoted into oblivion. She was the same champion as before. Oracle and pink wards were still the same too. Nothing changed but how the board saw her. Suddendly her pickrate skyrocket and there were always at least 5 "NERF EVE!" threads on the first forum page...

You cant trust the boards, its a bunch of sheeps who dont think about bans, they just ban the champions the board tells them to ban.

PermabannedGarenApr 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So, supports should be so weak noone would even consider baning them from a game?

That this person's brain-dead pseudo-logic is being upvoted is demonstrative of how stupid the people on the boards really are.

That's a logical fallacy, specifically a straw man fallacy. Dr was just pointing out that Lulu is being banned over champions like Rengar, Kha, or Lucian who are all extremely strong right now. If those champions are overpowered, but Lulu is being banned even more than them, then she is also overpowered is the argument. Dr's argument isn't perfect and has some flaws you could easily exploit, but what you said isn't one of them.

Take a course on logic friend, because your posts are painful to read.

Bronze II Yasuo Apr 1, 20173 votes

Lulu not that great of a lane bully if she's causing that much problem simply pick a Mage support they can outrrade her early.

And okay? She nullifys divers and has been doing that for a long time now so why bring this up now?

AhristocatsApr 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Lulu not that great of a lane bully if she's causing that much problem simply pick a Mage support they can outrrade her early.

how exactly do you outrade lulu? she has 2 sec massive slow to keep you there if you trade and her adc+herself with passive pokes you her E is point and click nuke, or a shield if you outrange her

if she is in 2v2 she auto-win with her AS steroid on adc

{quoted}

And okay? She nullifys divers and has been doing that for a long time now so why bring this up now?

it wouldn't be a problem if she weren't a lane bully, and the fact that she can win lane so much is what makes people ban her

RavenhaleApr 1, 20171 votes

Her E range is 650, so nobody straight up outranges her without an ability. She can miss her Q, which is why I would imagine she leads all trades with her E. If she can't trade with E, she just plays defensively like a Janna.

I'm not sure if she would bother with the AS steroid, since I think E max is the current strategy for Lulu. Throwing whimsy on an enemy prevents them from fighting back, which I think would be numerically favorable to a 25% AS buff.

Asayake 5150glowApr 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Her E range is 650, so nobody straight up outranges her without an ability. She can miss her Q, which is why I would imagine she leads all trades with her E. If she can't trade with E, she just plays defensively like a Janna.

I'm not sure if she would bother with the AS steroid, since I think E max is the current strategy for Lulu. Throwing whimsy on an enemy prevents them from fighting back, which I think would be numerically favorable to a 25% AS buff.

Wouldn't you W max for longer polymorph? Or does it not matter since they're dead in the first second anyway?

NymzoApr 1, 20173 votes

The problem with maxing w is that you are maxing first an ability that only provide utility, that would be like maxing lantern first on Thresh.

Just like in most solo lanes, there's will be trade at some point and you want to do dmg to win the trade. Yes Lulu has her passif but I really doubt you can throw more than 2 or 3 autos safely (and her passif can be blocked).

And against disrupters, poking is very important especially on those that don't have or have few substain like Thresh or Blitz.

Which is why you want to max first an ability that both does smg and utility like Thresh's q or e, Blitz's q or Lulu's e.

Bronze II Yasuo Apr 1, 20171 votes

Her Q is skillshot reliant but I would agree the slow can be toned down. her E which is about a 600(?) range so she pretty much had to walk up and E you which you seen coming also other enchanters use their main ability when out ranged such as Janna e, Nami W etc in order to stay safe if she was outranged she's basically another Janna. If her AS on w is much of an issue then we should also remove Ardent Censer.

The reason I mentioned Mage supports is because a lot of them can easily do a hefty amount of damage early to the ADC not in a brawled out 2v2. Brand for example can easily chunk an ADC health for about 60% with his combo at early levels trading isn't necessarily killing.

SpecterVonBarenApr 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MEzrnWrl,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-04-01T14:06:24.752+0000)

i didn't fail, you just didn't understand anything

Lulu is the best lane bully since her passive buff

What?

AhristocatsApr 1, 20172 votes

Yes? 52% win rate 20% pick rate what did you expect? lulu to tickle you in lane?

SpecterVonBarenApr 1, 20171 votes

Because clearly that means she's a lane bully. I guess that makes Ivern and Lee Sin lane bullies too even though both are junglers. Because everyone is a lane bully if they have a good winrate and pick rate.

AhristocatsApr 1, 20171 votes

clearly, if a jungler has a high win rate and pick rate it means that they are a lane bully despite them not being played in lane

LOL

SpecterVonBarenApr 1, 20171 votes

So you admit that saying a winrate indicates HOW a champion is winning games is a dumb thing to say? Because that's what you did when you said, "Yes? 52% win rate 20% pick rate what did you expect? lulu to tickle you in lane?"

SirΤeemοApr 1, 20174 votes

however.... zed in korea has 87% ban rate..

AhristocatsApr 1, 20174 votes

yea, https://www.op.gg/champion/zed/statistics/mid

74% ban rate with 48% win rate

SirΤeemοApr 1, 20171 votes

oh ok.. my bad then for not checking twice

And A Real HieroApr 1, 20171 votes

They probably ban him so they don't get a Zed on their own team.

MissingKayoApr 1, 20171 votes

Faker gave everyone PTSD

Big LincolnApr 1, 20173 votes

and riot nerfs rengar first

lul

Challenger AhriApr 1, 20173 votes

I mean, Lulu cant pick off 3 people and live with 2837289329 damage.

OneTrickZilianApr 1, 20171 votes

Her shield is strong, very low cd and low mana requirement. As my Zilean main support Lulu completely renders me useless. SO yeah, if she becomes popular, i would have no option but always ban her.

SpecterVonBarenApr 1, 20171 votes

And Janna doesn't? They both have the exact same CD on their E's except Janna's has a higher AP ratio for stronger shields late game. And you aren't banning Janna every time you get a ban since she's NEVER gone out of the meta?

NymzoApr 1, 20171 votes

Janna is actually not that good against long range opponents (since she's good at denying melee champions).

Against ranged champions, she become another version of a Soraka who has less heals, but more cc and a shield.

OneTrickZilianApr 1, 20171 votes

Even Janna or Morgana have shields, but they are manageable. Lulu's all abilities as a whole feels too strong. Not sure if by design or balance, but overall she feels too strong.

SpecterVonBarenApr 1, 20171 votes

Janna and Lulu's shields are literally exactly the same in terms of base value. Lulu has her Poly, Janna has her knockup, Lulu has her ult giving an ally health and knocking up enemies around them, Janna has her knockback ult that heals all her allies if she channels it, Janna gives an AD steroid to someone she shields, Lulu gives them on hit magic damage, Janna's W slows, Lulu's Q slows. Janna's W actually deals more base damage and has more scaling damage than Lulu's E, Janna's Q deals 5 more base damage than Lulu's Q but the catch is it needs to be fully charged for that and it has poorer scaling but Lulu's Q deals less damage after the first target hit.

The ONLY significant difference between the two in terms of output is their passives, with Lulu's giving her on hit damage and Janna giving allies a move speed buff for allies moving towards her. If you're going to complain about Lulu then you also need to complain about Janna because they're both damn near the same exact champion.

RavenhaleApr 1, 20171 votes

Not remotely true. Lulu has range advantage on Janna. Janna has an AA range of 475 and a point/click W range of 600, both inferior to Lulu's ranges. Janna's Q is much less reliable as poke than Lulu's Q which is pretty darn easy to land if you have disabled them with Whimsy (while Janna has nothing really in her kit to make landing her Q easier). As far as kit function and numbers go, Janna loses in every aspect when it comes to being aggressive. That's a very significant difference between the two.

Defensively, the two are almost on equal footing if we are talking about single target protection. Janna has the edge with saving multiple allies due to the displacement caused by her R.

SpecterVonBarenApr 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Defensively, the two are almost on equal footing if we are talking about single target protection. Janna has the edge with saving multiple allies due to the displacement caused by her R.

Which is exactly what me and SC2SALT were talking about...

OneTrickZilianApr 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Janna and Lulu's shields are literally exactly the same in terms of base value. Lulu has her Poly, Janna has her knockup, Lulu has her ult giving an ally health and knocking up enemies around them, Janna has her knockback ult that heals all her allies if she channels it, Janna gives an AD steroid to someone she shields, Lulu gives them on hit magic damage, Janna's W slows, Lulu's Q slows. Janna's W actually deals more base damage and has more scaling damage than Lulu's E, Janna's Q deals 5 more base damage than Lulu's Q but the catch is it needs to be fully charged for that and it has poorer scaling but Lulu's Q deals less damage after the first target hit.

The ONLY significant difference between the two in terms of output is their passives, with Lulu's giving her on hit damage and Janna giving allies a move speed buff for allies moving towards her. If you're going to complain about Lulu then you also need to complain about Janna because they're both damn near the same exact champion.

W/E differences are I know I have no problems vs Janna, where lulu feels way too strong. Talking from my own experience.

NymzoApr 1, 20171 votes

Question: What would happen to her if you would nerf item 3107 and probably item 3190 if needed instead of her?

After all, sometimes it would be better to nerf the items instead of the champion itself. Isn't that right , Malzahar ?

Malzahar : item 3070

sobi999Apr 1, 20171 votes

Sadly i prefer soraka still and i find lulu really dominating. I was only waiting to see if things changed but lulu still is dominating so i can actually confirm she needs nerfs although not too strong and i believe lucian also needs nerf alongside lulu.

AhristocatsApr 1, 20171 votes