Stop making Juggernauts

The Ecdysiast·Jan 10, 2016·7 votes·585 views

So as I understand it: Juggernauts are meant to be low-mobility with high damage and high defense. The low mobility is made less of a drawback for getting damage with no damage items, by the fact every juggernaut has CC in their kit, and medium ranged abilities. Every single one of them can burst a squishy champion down the same way an assassin can, so long as they get into range (flash makes that too easy).

I haven't seen anyone ever happy about juggernauts, including people who played them before they were turned into burst-true-damage-tanky-healing champions.

If they can't decide whether to make a champion a cc tank, burst-damage killer, or a sustained-damage fighter, they should rethink the design.

27 Comments

Critmaster GarenJan 10, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I haven't seen anyone ever happy about juggernauts, including people who played them

are you kidding? theyre awesome.

if anything, some people werent happy with specifics about how the reworks of their mains turned out (mordes duo laning, skarners crystals), but that doesnt mean no one enjoys their playstile.

fuck mobility creep. i wish they would make more of them instead of another hypermobile marksman. its great that they finally gave low mobility fighters some real threat so they can keep up with everyone else.

and the only juggernaut who has noticable cc is skarner. garens silence was nerfed, and darius has a short range hook and melee range slow. big whoop.

nasus wither is the next strongest cc after skarners impale.

illaoi probably needs a slight buff. but after playing her, shes definitely fun.

The EcdysiastJan 10, 20161 votes

Anyone and everyone who played Mord before the rework was disappointed they turned him from a Mage into a juggernaut. Garen needed no changes, or bigger changes. Going half-assed by just giving him more true damage was the wrong way to go. Darius's hook range is still the range of most dashes, and the fact he has 2 CC moves only makes it easier. Nasus's wither is tied for the longest duration of CC in the game, and also decreases Attack Speed. Illaoi has a slow along with a short hop.

The only juggernaut without CC to overcome the lack of mobility is Mordekaiser, who builds Rylai's anyway.

They'd be better with a little bit of mobility instead of heavy slows AND healing. Look at champions like Maokai, Malphite, Braum. They have a single mobile ability, and they're perfectly fine without added true damage or %HP healing.

I also don't have to point out the obvious bias involved with summoner "Critmaster Garen" being happy about Garen gaining extra true damage at no cost.

RalanrJan 10, 20161 votes

Mordekaiser's problem wasn't being labeled a juggernaut (he kind of already was) but rather that the rework was poor.

He's the weakest of the juggernauts with terrible stats and scalings that no band aides could fix properly.

It highlighted that Mordekaiser needs more thought and attention to make him a fun champion to play as and against.

Garen and Darius came out well (I hate Darius though). And this subtype has always existed before it was given the juggernaut title.

Mundo, Volibear, Trundle, Olaf, Shyvana, and even Udyr (though he's a stretch) fill out the juggernaut subtype.

We've always had them. They just have a more defining name now.

FioraWillCarryJan 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MEMozRai,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-01-10T11:56:14.720+0000)

illaoi probably needs a slight buff. but after playing her, shes definitely fun.

Careful with this. People 'round these parts would call for your head for making such a blasphemous statement.

Vistha KaiJan 11, 20161 votes

Is there anybody who thinks Mordekaiser's playstyle is fine?

Puh-lease.

IcyPepperJan 10, 20163 votes

Stop making [specific class I don't like.]

Honestly, that's what I'm seeing here. There's people who don't like assassins, utility mages, marksman, or even certain supports.

Some juggernauts need to be toned down, and the design philosophy probably needs some fine-tuning. But so does every other class, otherwise we wouldn't have things like the marksman update or whatnot.

Critmaster GarenJan 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Stop making [specific class I don't like.]

Honestly, that's what I'm seeing here. There's people who don't like assassins, utility mages, marksman, or even certain supports.

Some juggernauts need to be toned down, and the design philosophy probably needs some fine-tuning. But so does every other class, otherwise we wouldn't have things like the marksman update or whatnot.

if you want to count mundo into the bunch, hes currently the one with the highest winrate at 53.5%

illaoi, darius and skarner actually could use some slight buffs. garen and nasus are doing good but are nowhere near too strong.

morde is a special case. theyre still trying to figure out his duo laning. until then, hes actually quite weak right now aswell.

IcyPepperJan 10, 20161 votes

Yeah, I've been playing against Mundo lately. I don't want to complain too much about him, but he definitely feels a "little" overtuned.

Illaoi may need buffs, but I'd rather wait until her ban rate goes down to get more reliable data. Darius feels like he should be excelling in this current meta, but he's not. I'll have to disagree about Skarner, unless we're talking slight buffs, but I'm not going to put up a fight about it since he's not really being abused at the moment by the playerbase.

I wonder if Morde is going to stay a duo laner or what. Are they reconsidering balancing him for solo laning again, or is that still deemed "toxic?"

Critmaster GarenJan 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I've been playing against Mundo lately. I don't want to complain too much about him, but he definitely feels a "little" overtuned.

Illaoi may need buffs, but I'd rather wait until her ban rate goes down to get more reliable data. Darius feels like he should be excelling in this current meta, but he's not. I'll have to disagree about Skarner, unless we're talking slight buffs, but I'm not going to put up a fight about it since he's not really being abused at the moment by the playerbase.

I wonder if Morde is going to stay a duo laner or what. Are they reconsidering balancing him for solo laning again, or is that still deemed "toxic?"

last i heared they want to make him work for duo lane.

personally, i think hes more interesting this way. he would be the only real duo lane fighter in the game for now, which gives him a really unique nieche. though im not a morde main, so i cant tell how the change feels for people who have played him for a long time.

IcyPepperJan 10, 20161 votes

Honestly I think they should have made a champion specifically for that niche rather than change a current one's identity to do so. If the champion niche worked, they could figure out what works and what doesn't and then rework some champions they want to duo lane.

Or introduce items (starting or otherwise) for duo laning, or specifically against ranged aa, to allow champions to lane against the traditional duo lane.

There was a lot of possibilities, but I think they went for the absolute worst. Still, the potential is there, and I would happily embrace a little more variety in the bot lane.

Critmaster GarenJan 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I think they should have made a champion specifically for that niche rather than change a current one's identity to do so. If the champion niche worked, they could figure out what works and what doesn't and then rework some champions they want to duo lane.

Or introduce items (starting or otherwise) for duo laning, or specifically against ranged aa, to allow champions to lane against the traditional duo lane.

There was a lot of possibilities, but I think they went for the absolute worst. Still, the potential is there, and I would happily embrace a little more variety in the bot lane.

i dont feel like they changed his identity really.

his kit is pretty much exactly the same, mostly with number changes on the abilities and %health scaling of his shield. it kinda makes sense to put him against adc, since thats the guy he wants most for the ghost.

i think another large factor was the dragon ghost. they could have put him mid lane, but i can understand that the idea of sieging a turret with the dragon as replacement for the ranged auto attacks an adc would have is pretty cool.

it basically makes it possible for him to actually replace the adc on his team.

well, but like i said. im not a morde main.

however items to allow other champions to duo lane would be pretty cool. especially now that some marksmen are jungling or going mid, it would be easily possible to put someone else next to a support and still be able to take turrets and other objectives.

CrossetteJan 10, 20161 votes

As a Nasus player, he'll ALWAYS be too strong.

I also feel like Illaoi would get slight buffs if people actually learned to dodge her shit.

The rest of them still outdamage carries with item 3071 into a full tank build, but have "no mobility", right?

Critmaster GarenJan 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

As a Nasus player, he'll ALWAYS be too strong.

I also feel like Illaoi would get slight buffs if people actually learned to dodge her shit.

The rest of them still outdamage carries with into a full tank build, but have "no mobility", right?

nasus isnt too strong. he just scales really well into midgame when played correctly.

i think nasus was probably the basis for the balancing of the 4 rework juggernauts. they wanted to create a similar effect for them, where they could build a lot of defense, and would deal a ton of damage if they managed to get into melee range and stay there. but each in their own way.

theyre all really strong under certain conditions that usually require teamwork to achieve.

CrossetteJan 10, 20161 votes

I usually rush a Triforce into any matchup that has no way of stopping me with CC.

When I hit about 120 stacks, I can legitimately three-shot anybody that doesn't build straight armor.

Even juggernauts aren't safe from the fury of the sands.

also this helps http://leaguecraft.com/skins/64673-target-practice-teemo.xhtml

Critmaster GarenJan 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I usually rush a Triforce into any matchup that has no way of stopping me with CC.

When I hit about 120 stacks, I can legitimately three-shot anybody that doesn't build straight armor.

Even juggernauts aren't safe from the fury of the sands.

also this helps http://leaguecraft.com/skins/64673-target-practice-teemo.xhtml

ok, but thats a lot of strings attached.

first of all, who doesnt build armor against nasus? second, it takes a while to get triforce and 120 stacks going. you can beat nasus before that happens. and youre also assuming that your opponent doesnt have cc?

if you can pull it off, congratulations. i didt say nasus is weak. but if you master this champion specifically, then its no surprise that youll win most matchups.

you can do that with almost any champ.

edit.: ok, that teemo skin is legitemately funny.

CrossetteJan 10, 20161 votes

You're welcome for the Teemo skin. :P

Everyone I face as Nasus is either Teemo or a juggernaut that rushes a item 3071 because my ELO has no counterbuilding in their minds.

So I guess it's just a bit rigged in that regard, nobody knows how to fight a Nasus.

Edit: Illaoi is my favorite matchup because free stacks and whatnot.

The EcdysiastJan 10, 20161 votes

The thing is, I made a thread about how Juggernaut needs to be considered its own class, but people argued that they're just a type of fighter. If that stands, then it's simple to say that they should need at least two damage items to get away with 2000 True Damage on a single ability, or 25% HP healing. A build is what determines the role, not just the champion. But there shouldn't be a champion who can fight as if it's a role contrary to the build.

Yes, there are people who dislike other roles, but those roles aren't a problem in themselves. It's some of the champions being able to do things their role shouldn't allow.

In this case, it's the concept of "a champion who can build full tank but deals a 2500 damage burst instead of having heavy CC like a tank."

Another example would be Tryndamere, who builds full ADC but plays like a fighter only because he's invulnerable without needing defenses. "A champion who can sit under a tower like a Tank because he's invulnverable, but deal damage to it like an ADC."

Juggernauts are a bane to gameplay. They're either too (1) strong because they need to make up for being immobile/little CC with massive healing and damage, or too (2) weak because they're kited easily. Granted, the first case is true against champions with a decent amount of mobility, who are just fair enough that a 3 second 99% slow or a 2000 True damage ability with the range of their decent-cooldown dash can reach them. The second case is only true of champions with very high mobility.

Looking at numbers and playstyle, if Taric's heal became a %HP and his ultimate became True-damage based on proximity, he'd be the same. Remember back when Taric was too strong? That's the same here, just revamped for a new meta.

Critmaster GarenJan 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

should need at least two damage items to get away with 2000 True Damage on a single ability, or 25% HP healing.

none of them has 2000 true damage on a single ability, unless darius executes at least 3 people and hits the mark very close.

we had this situation. they were pretty much nonexistent for 2 years. garen almost since his release.

the way they are theyre working right now. theyre relevant at all levels of play.

A build is what determines the role, not just the champion.

this is completely false. the champions kit decides its role, and items are built according to what synergizes with the kit. you could build 5 defensive items on vayne and she would still be a marksman.

In this case, it's the concept of "a champion who can build full tank but deals a 2500 damage burst instead of having heavy CC like a tank."

they dont actually deal burst damage. all of their damage needs ramping up. darius needs to get 5 stacks on you before he gets rolling, garen will fight you for a while before you get into ult range. (spin takes 3 seconds), ive never seen a nasus 1 shot someone with a single q etc.

Another example would be Tryndamere, who builds full ADC but plays like a fighter only because he's invulnerable without needing defenses. "A champion who can sit under a tower like a Tank because he's invulnverable, but deal damage to it like an ADC."

tryndameres main problem is his early dependency on rng to win a lane. even with his ult hes actually so bad, that hes not good at teamfighting and uses it mostly to escape when split pushing.

Juggernauts are a bane to gameplay. They're either too (1) strong because they need to make up for being immobile/little CC with massive healing and damage, or too (2) weak because they're kited easily.

this is really generalized and depends entirely on the game. how strong they are often depends on the situation how good their team works together with them to get them into a position where they are effective, and how good the enemy team is at peeling them.

that is exacly the type of gameplay riot wanted to create. you could say the same about adc and assassins.

The EcdysiastJan 10, 20161 votes

It's 2000 effective damage, if youu're going to pretend 1200 true damage on a tank is the same as on an ADC. Even then, Garen should not be able to "execute" an enemy with over half their HP.

You're wrong on the role. You build full tank on Vayne, you're playing her Tank. That's why you PICK role in TB, and how champions can even possibly HAVE a secondary role. If you pick Leona and build nothing but Mana crystals, you are not Tank. TF is either a Mage or Marksman, depending on the items you buy.

If role was decided by champion kit alone, there'd be no need for items. Play HoTS if that's what you want.

4 seconds is still a burst. It may not be Rengar's .01 seconds, but it's definitely not a prolonged fight.

As far as Tryndamere, we aren't talking about his weaknesses. We're talking about how his role is not the same as his actions.

AND LASTLY Just because Riot intends something that ends up being bad for gameplay, and it comes out exactly as they intended, doesn't mean it was a smart move.

You absolutely could NOT say the same about ADC or Assassin, those are flat roles, champions in which have different strengths and weaknesses that are generally the same. Juggernaut is a subcategory of Fighter, but they execute it incorrectly by adding healing and damage into the kit that should come from items.

PennsJan 10, 20161 votes

item 3070 Illaoi

Critmaster GarenJan 10, 20161 votes

by the way, looking into you match history, it was the mf who dealt the most damage in your recent game. then karthus. and everyone on the enemy team was fed except 1 guy. while youre the only one who went positive.

what outcome exactly were you expecting?

The EcdysiastJan 10, 20161 votes

That's the issue with stalker-types on the boards. They always assume something is about a recent match.

As you can see, that wasn't the issue.

The new champ had me thinking about Illaoi, and how Juggernaut is altogether an unhealthy role. Someone above pointed out that they're hard to deal with in low and too easy to kite in high.

Earl EulrichJan 10, 20161 votes

i actually agree - the design is just really flawed. Having kiting as the main weakness doesn´t work out well in this game...it always leads to Champs that are rather unhealthy in low elos and rather unviable in higher elos - it also never really feels good to play, as you know you can mostly just mash buttons and everything else is pretty much up to your opponents.

Critmaster GarenJan 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MEMozRai,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-01-10T13:41:44.318+0000)

i actually agree - the design is just really flawed. Having kiting as the main weakness doesn´t work out well in this game...it always leads to Champs that are rather unhealthy in low elos and rather unviable in higher elos - it also never really feels good to play, as you know you can mostly just mash buttons and everything else is pretty much up to your opponents.

two poblems. the statistics dont match up with this. if you look at lolking how darius or garen perform in silver, its almost the same winrate as in plat and upwards same for ialloi. the diffierences ae in the 1% to 2% range.

in terms of balancing, they work out better than they ever have. heck, better than a lot of certain champions who actually have a large difference in strength at lower divisions vs higher up the ladder.

it used to be that way, but not anymore.

second problem is, that you cant balance the entire game around lower and higher divisions at the same time. it simply doesnt work. thats why riot compromised and drew a line at balancing the game for plat and above. everything below will always have some type of pupstmper that dominates lower elos. if you remove one, the next one will take his place. its up to the players to figure out how to deal with these champions and not to riot to make it easier for them.

Earl EulrichJan 10, 20161 votes

two poblems. the statistics dont match up with this. if you look at lolking how darius or garen perform in silver, its almost the same winrate as in plat and upwards same for ialloi. the diffierences ae in the 1% to 2% range.

well, SoloQ even in plat+ you´ll still find teams that don´t know anything about peeling or someone that feeds a simple Champ like Garen...or even guys that pick 4ad melees into garen. In ranked 5 though he´s at ~40% in plat and higher up far too unpopular for any proper data. Before their rework they had to reach their target once and had some more tools to do so - now they have to stay in range (ok garen less so than darius) or die trying. Making them "juggernauts" didn´t fix any issues, it just made the existing ones even worse...there´s no balancing to be had, all they do is hope that their opponents don´t understand how they work. i mean yea, they do work out fair enough, but they are not enjoyable to play once your opponent knows what you´re up to - nor are they enjoyable to play against if you don´t know what they´re up to. It just really is a big mess without much gameplay atm, before the reworks there had been at least some niche situations for each.

Ironclad DragonJan 10, 20161 votes

(flash makes that too easy).

So, they can only get in every few minutes. Sounds like a waste.

The EcdysiastJan 10, 20161 votes

Right, right. Because They were NEVER all six top bans, right? They're all too terrible to ever kill anyone, what with the lack of pulls, cc, or movement steroids. And forgetabout allies' cc, this is a 1v1 game.