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Controversial opinion? You're 100% responsible for all kills your lane opponent gets during laning

ValyrianBlade··4 votes·1,028 views

Just my thought.

It doesn't matter if you pinged a missing (although most of the time you didn't, or you just pinged missing and gave no indication of which way he was going [looking at you mid laners]). It doesn't matter if you were dead from a gank.

If your lane opponent gets a kill during laning phase, it's your responsibility. If they had time to roam, it means you didn't have enough pressure on them.

Just getting so tired of the guy whining that his lane opponent got fed off another lane. What did you get when he was out of lane? You have no turret damage, you're down 15 cs, you're not in a hard counter matchup. If someone roams unpunished, it means you lost lane. It doesn't matter who died, it's still your responsibility.

Which doesn't mean it isn't the dead guy's responsibility too. He died, something obviously went wrong. Thing is, don't you dare blame him for it. If your lane opponent roamed and you got nothing in return, you're the one who lost lane. Not the guy who's up 20cs and got the first turret despite having your laner in his lane more than yours.

Rant over... for now.

20 Comments

Retard Slayer5 votes

What if you play a champion that is easy to be pushed on at early levels and they roam? You can't do shit about that if your laners decide to overextend and die.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Retard Slayer,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MAhHjGfc,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-09-15T01:37:26.855+0000)

What if you play a champion that is easy to be pushed on at early levels and they roam? You can't do shit about that if your laners decide to overextend and die.

And if you're playing a champion that you think needs to be passive early, then you better be doing so because he's amazingly strong late game. At which point the free CS and lack of pressure your opponent can apply mid when he's ganking bot should mean your team is doing fine overall.

Note that I said responsibility, not fault. Basically, if you can't control your lane opponent in the early laning phase, you should be doing something that means you can handle his late game. If he gets out of control late game, it's not because other lanes fed. It's because you lost the lane. Whether you made a poor pick, or just failed to play the matchup well, is irrelevant. You need to be able to handle him late game.

Eedat5 votes

NO.

If I'm laning against a TF, and I straight up say in chat "TF hit 6". Then I ping that he's headed bot and you STILL don't back off, thats YOUR fault

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

NO.

If I'm laning against a TF, and I straight up say in chat "TF hit 6". Then I ping that he's headed bot and you STILL don't back off, thats YOUR fault

You can interrupt his ult channel with any CC. You can take his turret and make the loss bot lane in to a trade mid lane when he's abandoned the lane. You can start roaming bot lane before him, given that TF has a weak laning phase but can safely CS from turret with his long range skillshot.

Honestly, TF is one of the worst examples. He has so many weaknesses in lane, his only true strength is in getting cheeky kills with his ult (well, the targeted stun is nice too). Point being, a TF under pressure is a TF that's not ulting bot lane. And it's really easy to keep TF under pressure.

Hèntaî 1 votes

Cough

warpenguin5555 votes

so if the jungler runs down mid and dies its my fault? Fuck that

Purple Death3 votes

How is this controversial?

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

How is this controversial?

Given that I'm now sitting at -7, after being at +6 yesterday, it seems pretty controversial.

Penta Ace1 votes

I think its because your points came across as whining/complaining/ ranting rather than discussion oriented, even though they were valid points.

Purple Death1 votes

{quoted}

Given that I'm now sitting at -7, after being at +6 yesterday, it seems pretty controversial.

-7 what? lp? Deaths??

NovaDisk2 votes

Sometimes you pretty much have to put yourself in a risky situation in order to win lane. If you play too passive, you will fall behind in EXP or CS.

There are many situations where your lane opponent can get a kill and there's nothing you could have done about it.

Remember that a single kill is only worth 300 gold and half a level, so it's entirely possible for your lane opponent to TP away, get a kill (or even a double kill), and you respond by denying 2 minion waves while getting Turret First Blood, giving your team an overall EXP/gold advantage.

For the most part, though you are correct, especially in lower brackets of play.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Remember that a single kill is only worth 300 gold and half a level, so it's entirely possible for your lane opponent to TP away, get a kill (or even a double kill), and you respond by denying 2 minion waves while getting Turret First Blood, giving your team an overall EXP/gold advantage.

That's exactly my point though. Your lane opponent's kill was traded for your extra lane advantage. You came out ahead overall (likely). It means you're doing fine.

It doesn't mean you're trying to carry the crap bot lane that your opponent killed. It means your lane opponent chose to kill bot while you chose to take a turret. That's a valid trade. The fact that you chose to make that trade is still your responsibility though (i.e. you've now chosen to sacrifice whatever advantage your bot lane would have had so you could have that advantage mid, so you better use that advantage mid to win, now that your bot lane lost their advantage).

Again, responsibility - not fault. You're responsible for beating down your opponent who now got a kill - so don't complain that your opponent got free kills bot lane. They shouldn't be free, you should make him sacrifice something (e.g. the turret) to get it.

ReshiKillim1 votes

Except when your teammate tower dives the enemy laner which you repeatedly ping danger to warn and dies.

ModAttysu The Poro1 votes

^ Or the fact that I spam missings, and because of my team actually cough listening, their roam is useless and I have a CS lead. But when they don't listen I gotta drag my ass to the dark-ass river as I can only ward so much near my lane and the rest is ignored by the supp.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

^ Or the fact that I spam missings, and because of my team actually cough listening, their roam is useless and I have a CS lead. But when they don't listen I gotta drag my ass to the dark-ass river as I can only ward so much near my lane and the rest is ignored by the supp.

Except why are they missing? I used to play a lot of mid lane. I never once had a lane where I felt I was doing remotely okay and my opponent was able to roam. The only time my opponent ever roamed was when I felt a lot of pressure in lane and was losing. I was being forced to back, not backing because I wanted to buy. I was being forced to farm under turret, not choosing to have the lane pushed against me to be safe from a gank.

i.e. I was playing my opponents game, because my opponent was better than me. So when he roams and gets kills, it's because he's better than ME. Not because my bot lane sucks. Not because his champion is OP. Strictly because he was better than me in lane, so he earned the time to roam without being punished.

Roaming is a huge risk. There's a chance at a kill, but there's the certainty that you lose CS and XP in lane, your turret should take damage, etc... So people don't typically roam unless the "risk" of roaming is low, i.e. that they've successfully put so much pressure in their own lane that they have time to roam before missing most of the next wave. They'll maybe miss 1 creep.

I play a lot of top lane now. Whenever I play J4 top against a mid laner without a dash, I look to fast push the wave and roam mid whenever I have the chance post-6. I get away with it most of the time - it's never the enemy mid laners fault. It's always my lane opponent's fault for giving me the time to roam. A Syndra/Orianna/Veigar/etc... is not going to get out of a J4 ult unless their flash is up (and getting their flash is good too anyways). The counterplay was for my opponent to not let me force them out of lane at around level 6, so that I couldn't get in a risk-free roam. If they had me at 1/3 health when I forced them back I wouldn't be healthy enough to roam.

So it doesn't really matter if a missing is pinged. What bugs me most is that you're losing lane. I'm winning lane. I'm trying to turn my advantage in lane into something tangible - a kill or an untimely forced back that lets me lay on some turret damage. So when your lane opponent has time to roam, he negates my lead. If he happens to get to my lane and kill me, that's on you - regardless of the circumstance. It's always blamed on bot lane, but that's because bot lane has an inherent disadvantage. Solo laners will always be a higher level. Mid lane's wave gets to lane before bot lane's does so he can get to my lane just shortly after the wave I want to kill has arrived. And if you do let him roam, you better get something out of it in return. Watching your mid laner recall at 10% hp while the enemy mid laner is ganking you is a terrible feeling.

ModAttysu The Poro1 votes

There is inherit benefits as well however; I understand your point, but for example;

You have bot as a passive lane as it is. They ward up river and farm while avoiding fights until their later in-lane spikes. My jungler is in red side near bot lane, hovering bot. I'm even in CS with my opponent, and they go to roam bot. I ping missing, jungler hovers bot to catch mid laner out, they get my mid-laner, I get extra cs, Dragon.

Obviously this doesn't always work, but usually a variation of this happens with good wards/pings.

I feel like while letting the mid laner roam 24/7 isn't a smart idea, sometimes letting them roam for a wasted opportunity while you soak exp and free minions is a good idea.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

There is inherit benefits as well however; I understand your point, but for example;

You have bot as a passive lane as it is. They ward up river and farm while avoiding fights until their later in-lane spikes. My jungler is in red side near bot lane, hovering bot. I'm even in CS with my opponent, and they go to roam bot. I ping missing, jungler hovers bot to catch mid laner out, they get my mid-laner, I get extra cs, Dragon.

Obviously this doesn't always work, but usually a variation of this happens with good wards/pings.

I feel like while letting the mid laner roam 24/7 isn't a smart idea, sometimes letting them roam for a wasted opportunity while you soak exp and free minions is a good idea.

If your bot lane is pretty passive that's fine. When your bot lane is denying farm, pressuring the turret, etc... you should be doing everything you can to deny roams and to follow them.

If your jungler is already near bot, an enemy roam is an opportunity to collapse on him in the river. Why let the jungler force a 3v3 bot when you could follow and win a 4v3? Especially when your bot lane is already ahead? What if the enemy jungler was there too? What about your mid lane opponent's level advantage on your jungler?

I mean, obviously we agree with eachother overall and it's just trivialities that we're pointing out. There are times to follow and times to not. If you're not following it should be because you can do something more useful in your lane, or because you've lost sufficiently that you can't safely follow (which then is your fault).

Truly Prideful1 votes

So if I recall and my jungler for whatever reason tries to 1v1 my lane opponent while I'm walking back it becomes my fault if they die? I don't see how that makes any sense at all, I had no control over that player's actions nor did I have any ability to assist them. If they couldn't wait the 10 seconds for me to get back that kill that my lane opponent got was not my fault in any way.

Even if your lane opponent roams, it isn't always the correct play to chase them especially if they are ahead. Have wards down, ping to warn the lane being roamed to, and shove the hell out of their turret or take dragon.

I can only agree with you if you're making no effort to warn about a roam or if your lane opponent is getting kills on you because you are stupidly dying to repeated jungle ganks or 1v1s.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

So if I recall and my jungler for whatever reason tries to 1v1 my lane opponent while I'm walking back it becomes my fault if they die? I don't see how that makes any sense at all, I had no control over that player's actions nor did I have any ability to assist them. If they couldn't wait the 10 seconds for me to get back that kill that my lane opponent got was not my fault in any way.

Even if your lane opponent roams, it isn't always the correct play to chase them especially if they are ahead. Have wards down, ping to warn the lane being roamed to, and shove the hell out of their turret or take dragon.

I can only agree with you if you're making no effort to warn about a roam or if your lane opponent is getting kills on you because you are stupidly dying to repeated jungle ganks or 1v1s.

Your point about the jungler is 'somewhat' fair. It really comes down to why your opponent is able to 1v1 your jungler. Is it because you backed unfavorably and your lane opponent had high health, summoners, and ultimate all available? Then it's still partially your responsibility (how did he force you back for no cost in return?). Did you back because it was a favorable time after forcing him to back? Then sure, I can agree that you've found an exception. I'm sort of assuming some level of common sense here, I mean plays like that don't often happen at level 30...

With respect to the roams, this was the whole point of my post. Even if following the roam isn't the right play, your opponent being ABLE to roam is your responsibility. As I said elsewhere, I've NEVER had an opponent manage to roam on me when I felt I was doing even remotely okay in lane. Only when I'm getting my ass handed to me does my opponent manage to roam. If you're applying some moderate pressure, your opponent can't roam. Or if he does, you'll take the turret in return. In the latter scenario, his roam is still your responsibility. You chose to trade turret for the roam. If he gets a kill or two on the roam, you should be prepared to deal with it because you got the turret in return. I.e. if he's playing a super snowbally champion, maybe trading is not the best idea because it gets him rolling. If you're on a Lissandra or Malzahar and can eliminate him from teamfights with your ultimate, then maybe it's a really good idea to have that turret gold spread across your team. Either way, it's not your fault but it is your responsibility. Whether it was your choice or your opponent's superior skill to yours, that's how the roam happened. It didn't happen because your opponent knew your bot lane wouldn't react to pings and he could get a kill and would prefer to get kills bot instead of protect his own lane. Players typically don't behave that way.

Catastrop1 votes

I'm sorry, but if I explicitly told my ally, to back off and they died, that's entirely on them. If it had been a normal gank where my jung/whoever died, because chances are I actually did misplay.

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