what's the point in shyvana when there's gnar?

The Bard Dog·Dec 15, 2014·24 votes·3,503 views

gnar has better passive magic damage, better mobility, better escapes, a transform(not controllable, but still very strong), tons of cc, and is ranged. he is seriously there to make shyvana pointless.

52 Comments

Teridax68Dec 15, 20148 votes

You're listing the features of both of Gnar 's forms at once, when his Mini Gnar and Mega Gnar forms' strengths are complementary. In Mega Gnar form, he's super-tanky, has tons of CC and great burst, but is extremely slow and easy to kite ( Shyvana , by contrast, always has access to a movement speed boost). In Mini-Gnar form, he's squishy, despite being fairly short-ranged (his maximum AA range is 485) and he lacks burst. Shyvana always has access to both burst and DPS, tankiness, mobility, and despite what you're saying, more magic damage (Gnar's only source of magic damage is Mini Gnar's proc, whereas Shyvana's W, E and R all deal magic damage, to the point where she often deals more magic than physical damage).

I don't think it really makes sense to compare Gnar to other bruisers, because he's designed to have the strength of two champions. On the flipside, he also has the weaknesses of two champions, on top of a fair degree of unreliability, so he also has to deal with not being in the appropriate form at all times. Most other bruisers do less, but can do everything their kit offers at the same time.

Leti the YetiDec 15, 20145 votes

well shyvana's a stronger duelist if you ask me she can also jungle pretty well

The Bard DogDec 15, 20144 votes

{quoted} well shyvana's a stronger duelist if you ask me she can also jungle pretty well

not in new jungle. no innate sustain=garbage jungler.

Leti the YetiDec 15, 20149 votes

rammus says hi

The Bard DogDec 15, 20144 votes

{quoted} rammus says hi

rammus is one of the very few exceptions. because he stacks armor and gets damage from it.

ZydronDec 16, 20142 votes

Okay Rammus

crippler38Dec 16, 20142 votes

shaco says right behind you

Fiddlesticks I have all this free sustain, I'll be fine Shaco bye bye

shaco then places jack in the box and then kills fiddle although to be fair shaco can use boxes and his e passive to stay healthy, but then again shyv has free armor so eeeeh

SerpensDec 15, 20141 votes

The new changes to shyvana made her better at clearing the jungle. She has some troubles in her first clear but after the first she's free to do whatever because of her ridiculous clearing speeds. And stalkers blade fixes alot of her "no cc" problem. She's a pretty good jungle imo.

GoldenLeSpoinkDec 15, 20141 votes

I am sorry, but Shyv is a really great jungler in this new one; she is able to clear really fast and the fact that she can ult without worrying about mana/energy/cooldown is what makes her one of the best champion IMO. Every old jungler is still good in the new jungle you just need to learn how to path correctly.

Celeste BenalDec 15, 20141 votes

Shyv's jungling is very strong imo

ZeroAnarchyDec 16, 20141 votes

Lol, Pantheon and Vi have no sustain yet they are still very good junglers. Shyvanna has a lot of aoe to make up for her lack of sustain.

The Bard DogDec 16, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Lol, Pantheon and Vi have no sustain yet they are still very good junglers. Shyvanna has a lot of aoe to make up for her lack of sustain.

pantheon has a free damage block every 4 hits/ability cast vi has a passive shield from her abilities.

FHMarshyDec 15, 20143 votes

LMAO u don't need innate sustain in the new jungle =________= Start gomp with smite = free healing. Shyv is still a very viable jungler

JustacoDec 15, 20143 votes

{quoted} tons of cc, and is ranged

He has tons of cc or is ranged. Sorry that just bothers me. You can continue your discussion now.

JustMyBassCannonDec 16, 20143 votes

{quoted}

gnar has better passive magic damage,

Gnar has only one source of magic damage output, only in his mini form, and it can only deal stronger DPS in the very late game, if Gnar's able to stand still and constantly attack a target. That means someone would have to be letting the squishiest champion in League beat them up without attacking them back.

{quoted} better mobility, better escapes,

Shyvana's MS steroid is much easier to activate, lasts much longer, and she has the longest range free-roam dash in League.

{quoted} a transform(not controllable, but still very strong), tons of cc, and is ranged.

His transform lasts a shorter duration (15 seconds to Shyvana's 20+), almost has the worst mobility in League of Legends, and trades his ranged attacks for his CC. Then, when he changes back, he trades the CC for his range, the defense for the mobility, and he can't gain Fury for 13 seconds.

{quoted} he is seriously there to make shyvana pointless.

k, you tell me how well Gnar goes counter-jungling. I'm just gonna stick to my half-dragon.

CarrierKestralFeb 2, 20151 votes

Meanwhile Gnar showcasing plays in LCS meanwhile shyvana gathers dust....

JustMyBassCannonFeb 2, 20151 votes

I could not be paid to give a damn what happens in LCS.

Besides, most everyone who does care uses LCS as a compass to call champs overpowered, broken, toxic, anti-fun, and all the rest of that bullshit that they don't really comprehend.

Lumus AvatarDec 15, 20141 votes

I still prefer Shyvana.

RaiokuMoonscarDec 15, 20141 votes

Yo check this out for idea's of bring Shyvana back into stronger JG use. Not Gnar tir broken but better than now

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/VqoEer1H-a-bit-more-tweaking-to-shyvana-poll?show=flat

SasogwaDec 15, 20141 votes

Not only Shyvana but pretty much every other toplaner. Gnar kinda has every thing the other toplaners already have, and other advantages on top of that. (CC for ganks, ranged, melee, kite, selfpeel, high damage all in, teamfight presence, ability to splitpush as well) But in jungle? I'm not sure he's that awesome.

DurzakaDec 15, 20141 votes

Gnar can't jungle.

They play entirely different top lane.

There is the point to Shyvana.

CarrierKestralDec 15, 20141 votes

actualy, the transformation is entirely controllable. It simply requires you to farm it before using it.

JustMyBassCannonDec 16, 20142 votes

It's possible to set up transforming as you enter a fight, yes. However, that takes up time to do. On top of that, you can't control it when you don't want to transform, as it auto-shifts 5 seconds after hitting 100 Fury, and you gain Fury from attacking or being attacked.

CarrierKestralFeb 2, 20151 votes

ok? I fail to see how that makes it "completely random"

JustMyBassCannonFeb 2, 20151 votes

I did not say "completely random" before this post saying that I did not say it. In fact, you are the only person in this thread to say that phrase.

I said that you can't control it. As in, you are not the sole factor in choosing whether Gnar changes forms.

CarrierKestralFeb 2, 20151 votes

but as I clearly stated you can very much control it. If you couldn't control it then it would be completely random. If Gnar's alternate form was truly uncontrolled then it would be like crit chance, something entirely out of the hands of the player. A player can influence crit chance, but a player does not designate when and where you crit. Meanwhile gnar is simply a short term farm up transformtion entirely under the control of the player as they can choose when they hit critical mass AND for 5 seconds after they decide when AND where they transform.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

but as I clearly stated you can very much control it. If you couldn't control it then it would be completely random.

Can't control it. It's not something that happens on a die roll, but you can't control it, entirely because of the fact that Gnar gains Fury when damaged by an enemy. This, in turn, means that an enemy champion can make Gnar change forms when he doesn't want that.

And before you even ask, I wouldn't want to change forms before a fight for which I was preparing, because then the early shape-shift would most likely screw up my initiation, and I don't have the option to wait 28 seconds to start gaining Fury again.

CarrierKestralFeb 8, 20151 votes

cause gnar totally lacks mobility, a jump/blink, a speed buff, or an easily spammable kiting slow....ohwait....

Hard as it may be for your mind to comprehend the fact that a player can have total control over what damage he does and does not take, it is infact true. This is also besides the point that if anyone is in range to be damaging gnar they are in range for the 5 seconds it takes gnar to pop 3 stacks, speed boost at said enemy, jump transform into them, and start the fight himself.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

cause gnar totally lacks mobility, a jump/blink, a speed buff, or an easily spammable kiting slow....ohwait....

His speed buff requires him to deal damage, which gains Fury. His slow deals damage, which gains Fury. His jump can escape if he has an allied target, so his bounce doesn't deal damage and gain Fury.

Hard as it may be for your mind to comprehend the fact that a player can have total control over what damage he does and does not take, it is infact true. This is also besides the point that if anyone is in range to be damaging gnar they are in range for the 5 seconds it takes gnar to pop 3 stacks, speed boost at said enemy, jump transform into them, and start the fight himself.

And if starting the fight himself there means he just leapt into a multi-man fight without his own teammates in tow...?

Or what if forcing that initiation early was exactly what the other team wanted? What if their team can pull off a counter-initiation stronger than Mega-Gnar's initiation?

But, no, arguing strategy with you at this point is like arguing heliocentric theory during the Renaissance.

CarrierKestralFeb 10, 20151 votes

what if no matter what you do you lose? funny how that works. I assume also your one of those asshats who thinks the word "fly by wire" is the equivalent to "no control". You don't need direct control to have any control.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 10, 20151 votes

Considering I lack any experience in aviation, that's not a very effective analogy.

A more accurate analogy to use with gamers is building a deck in any TCG. You have full control over what the deck contains, and you can build it to fit a specific strategy, but you're never in control of how that strategy plays out in the end. Between your cards coming in a random order and your opponent's counters to your cards, you can't guarantee full control of the situation every time.

CarrierKestralFeb 11, 20151 votes

not having full control does not equal having no control. And seriously you couldn't bother to google fly by wire? It's also a term used in cars, anything RC, or anything in which you do not have DIRECT CONTROl but despite you STILL RETAIN CONTROL. I mean shit the way you describe it transforming with gnar is like trying to pull gold card while having your eyes closed. Ohwait you have full control of that as well!

JustMyBassCannonFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

not having full control does not equal having no control.

Thus why the TCG analogy works. You know what to expect, and you have control. Not complete control, but control. You can't fully control it.

FFS, the only point was that you don't have full control over it. You can't control it in situations where someone else is attacking you.

And seriously you couldn't bother to google fly by wire? It's also a term used in cars, anything RC, or anything in which you do not have DIRECT CONTROl but despite you STILL RETAIN CONTROL.

I did google it, and the first thing it came up with aviation terminology. Excuse me for not looking into three or four links worth of information.

I mean shit the way you describe it transforming with gnar is like trying to pull gold card while having your eyes closed. Ohwait you have full control of that as well!

Not really. It's more like Graves' passive, if Graves' passive consumed itself and went on cooldown for 15 seconds at maximum stacks.

CarrierKestralFeb 13, 20151 votes

please stop editing your comments.
TCG's are entirely random UNLESS you engineer the TCG to allow you to pull from the deck.
Even If graves' passive worked like that, you would still have as much control over it as gnar in the "fly by wire" sense. Again, just because you don't have COMPLETE control does not make things suddenly uncontrolled, and therefore random.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 13, 20151 votes

Except for fixing a mistake in my most recent reply before you responded, I haven't edited my comments.
Is the number of cards you get in your hand random? Is the number of cards drawn per turn random? Are the rules of how many cards you can play in a turn random? Nope. All of those are static, and only changed if a card overrules those rules. You can base a deck's cards on those rules, and always expect to get a certain level of output, regardless of whether you started with Lightning Bolt or Slumbering Dragon.
I didn't say it was anything like TF's gold card, you were the one with that analogy. I was actually making my own analogy, and one that's significantly more accurate. And as long as you can't control enemy champions' actions or enemy minions, while you have a degree of control over Gnar's transformation, it's not the same level of control as, for example, every mechanic in League of Legends except for Crit Chance. I'm saying you do not have full control.

CarrierKestralFeb 13, 20151 votes

pls look at 3
Your moves however are limited to the cards in hand. Unless you can pull from thee deck directly then your moves are infact random and not chosen. The other reason this analogy doesn't work is Gnar doesn't gain a completely random amount of rage at a completely random amount of time. He gains rage in a very predictable and manageable manner. For someone who is all about random morphs, Gnar and his counterplay style are entirely based off of accurate predictions from consistent information.
Besides the fact that you are making the goal post fallacy now, pls stop editing your comments. I would not have said they "aren't random" if you had not stated they were. But do please broaden your goalpost until it is impossible for your statement to be incorrect.

TheKingDodoDec 15, 20141 votes

Skarner's fine in the new jungle. he has no innate sustain. anyone with aoe and some sort of defence will do fine. shyv gets free armor so...

BudupopsDec 15, 20141 votes

shyv is cheaper

HayaishiDec 15, 20141 votes

Shyvana is obsolete compared to Gnar, like many other champions.

Xela SyabDec 16, 20141 votes

this discussion brings a greater discussion: how come gnar doesnt jungle?

CataclysmCrashDec 16, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xela Syab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MAcslA7B,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2014-12-16T00:17:23.028+0000)

this discussion brings a greater discussion: how come gnar doesnt jungle?

The nature of his transformation makes ganking unreliable or restricted.

MattAkhavanDec 16, 20141 votes

you can use shyvana's ultimate whenever you want and gnar must wait for transformation.

Yulen XoshxiusFeb 2, 20151 votes

Using this, couldn't we ask the same with Jynx and Caitlyn? I know Caitlyn's Ult is a bit more reliable, but the skills feel quite similiar except Jynx has more POW to it.

MrSlowDieFeb 2, 20151 votes

why everyone love shyvana jungle? I don't like her as her or playing with her. Her gank just meh :/

19 19 19Feb 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

why everyone love shyvana jungle? I don't like her as her or playing with her. Her gank just meh :/

Her ganks suck, she's all about mobility and that's just straight up stupid. SHES A DRAGON FOR FUCK SAKES RIOT.

SleepyLionCubFeb 2, 20151 votes

More consistency i guess? With gnar u have to manage when ur going to go megagnar, and when ur little gnar.

With shyvana, you actually controll when u get to turn super badass mode.

M0b1usFeb 10, 20151 votes

Easy.

Shyvana has a ton more innate damage than Gnar. This is because she deals tons of magic damage even though she relies pretty heavily on auto-attacks. So itemizing against her is a bit harder. Gnar on the other hand has a lot more reliable CC.

Lets look at the transformation. Shyvana's ult is on a much shorter CD because she can quickly build fury/rage (whatever its called) by fighting and it gradually increases. It also doesn't force a transform so she can hold onto her ult and have it up for critical moments. Gnar either must wait to do anything or must waste his transform. The tradeoff for both is that Shyvana doesn't get as much stats from it and Gnar can't hold on to it.

Gnar is just a lot stronger in lane because he has range so he can harass or handle 1v2s safely and his transform essentially heals him. Lane Shyvana was popular when a lot of lane bullies were popular because she could trade with her high damage and outscale them. Then Trundle became a popular top lane and then the meta shifted away from top laners like Mundo and Shy.

19 19 19Feb 11, 20151 votes

Gnar only needs 1-2 pots to sustain in lane against Shyvana while Shyvana needs 5 pots. (Tested this)

AnonagonFeb 13, 20151 votes

Shyvana can jungle.
Shyvana has vastly superior 1-item damage, whether that item be Devourer or BORK, and comparable full-tank damage.
Shyvana is reliable and has all her strengths at once.

Shyvana could use some love, but there is no point in directly comparing two champions unless their niche is exactly the same, like Kalista and Ashe, or Ziggs and Xerath.