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That's not how you fixe Rylai

Ahristocats··63 votes·3,847 views

Not by doing it a high damage option.

How is your mind working? Right now 90% of Rylai abuser doesn't give a shit about Hp, and they're all high burst damage except few one. How is Rylai losing HP in favor of more offensive stats is going to prevent Cassiopeia Viktor Syndra +any other mages from slowing you and dealing tons of damage?

"Having all your abilities slow is something that should be a deliberate choice you opt into, and make trade offs for, not just a default item on so many AP champs"

Yes because they can have access to 100 AP which increase their burst damage with a luden lvl of AP

"That issue's magnified by the HP given by Rylai's, given health's the most universal stat we've got (everyone can always use it, and more's always useful, even if it's not the ideal stat for a specific champ)."

the fuck is this? no one is building Rylai beside mages, some bruiser are building it like Vladimir Mordekaiser , but most of champs buying Rylai are MAGES . Shifting the HP to other offensive stats is going to remove 2 or 3 people buying Rylai while they aren't a problem. while making Cassiopeia and some piece of shit slowing you from 800 range with no downside.

you're going to fuck up massively again.

103 Comments

Malicious Metal15 votes

Giving it Mana and CDR won't hurt the prime Rylais abusers, heck, it may even benefit them. What removing the health does is to just exclude a certain champion group from ever buying Rylais, all of which aren't really exploiting it like others do and really rely on the slow and survivability instead of the pure damage the mages are after (Vladimir Rumble Mordekaiser )

The great AP purge made Rylais one of the biggest AP chunks there when it used to be a defensive 80 AP option where things like 100 and 120 AP items existed.

I feel lowering its damage and giving Ludens a bit more would really help amend this issue while changing the stats slightly (60-80 AP, 400+ hp)

Riot will almost certainly do more bad than good if they change it to the squishy option, having to rebalance messes like Mordekaiser, Vlad, Rumble, A Sol and about 30 more champions.

Just making it less attractive and nerfing the slow, especially the AoE one to 30% would be ENOUGH!

//rant

Best princess EU4 votes

congrat that's exactly what op said

Malicious Metal9 votes

Precisely.

Bladerunner77772 votes

I feel lowering its damage and giving Ludens a bit more would really help amend this issue while changing the stats slightly

Don't buff Luden's

Right now, Luden's is only built on poke champions and roaming champions; it already has a niche and it fills it very well.

Buff Luden's and you'll see it built on literally every AP champion, just like season 5

WarlockLaw10 votes

What they need to do for it is to drop the AP down to 80 (or even 70 like the other AP safety item item 3157). Then they need to reduce the slow strength on AoE abilities, either a lower slow % or lower duration for this would be fine. As compensation for those sizable nerfs is compensate it in cost, build path and/or Health.

It should be intended for champions like Kennen, Swain, or Vlad who want to be in the middle of the enemy team, not for champions like Ahri or Syndra who'd rather sit at the edge of a fight.

A little Peepo8 votes

Rylais is supposed to be a defensive utility item like zonyas. The HP on Rylais shouldn't be touched but the ap should be lowered to 60-80 and have like 10% cdr added to it. I am not sure what riot is planning but this item shouldn't be focused as an ap nuke item but rather a niche utility item that's core on certain champions and a decent items on most mages. Rylais is technically the new zonyas where every champion purchased because 120 ap and lost its unique niche pick. If you want more cc then you should give up some damage to balance things out not a simple win/win. Imagine of frozen mallet gave 60 ad, that would be disgusting beyond believe and every adc who wasn't ashe would build it every game because of health and heavy ad. Don't get me wrong I love Rylais but it's getting annoying how every mage is building it because the only downfall to this item is the price.

Suggestions: 60-75 ap Unique: 10% cdr or slow reduction
Passive remains the same or maybe can receive a diminishing return on spam abilities Builds out of kindle gem, blasting wand and giants belt, this build would make more sense since needlessly large rod is always a heavy ap item build, also adds more cdr options to mana less champions since cdr shouldn't be exclusive to mana mages since adc technically already have a large sum of cdr available to them and they really shouldn't have that option over mana less mages.

GundayMonday5 votes

no one is building Rylai beside mages, some bruiser are building it like Vladimir Mordekaiser

Amumu Evelynn Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Singed Swain All love item 3116 for the HP + slow.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

.... Uh.... Fiddle, Heim and Swain are mages...

Karn Bishop1 votes

They fall into the tank mage category though, they don't do insane upfront damage and instead do it in ticks, if ryalis is made melee only i would not object to having fiddle and swain be the exception to the rule.

HazyCloud74 votes

This is completely and totally false. The fact that mages can buy it to get a huge amount of AP, HP (survivability) and the passive is the problem. It needs to be a glass cannon item.

Malicious Metal11 votes

Easy coming from an Azir/Viktor main, huh?

Edit: sorry about that, I'm just really scared how these changes will impact Mord. After the Juggernaut patch he was in an awful state and him actually being in a good spot right now makes me very defensive of him. My apologies for that comment.

HazyCloud73 votes

Doesn't make my point any less true.

The power of being able to grab the giant belt component in difficult matchups that will eventually build into a 100 AP instead of grabbing seekers/negatron which build into items that provide 60/70 AP respectively is absolutely huge. It might be irrelevant for Azir but its certainly not on Cass/Viktor.

Malicious Metal12 votes

Mages wouldn't bother getting that early giant belt if it would severely impact their damage output.

Rylais got too much AP for what its niche's supposed to be. People would rush Zhonyas/Abyssal just as often if they provided one HUNDRED AP.

Its stats are severely out of balance and should be reevaluated.

Hell, if it were up to me Rylais would become two different items. One squishier damage option with a ton of AP and one tankier one with a stronger slow

It would benefit both parties while making you chose between damage or durability

HeadHonchkrow3 votes

poor AurelionSol

TeCoolMage2 votes

tbh I think tankiness + utility is always a recipe for disaster when making damage dealer items. Abyssal Scepter lets you deal more damage and be more tanky against magic, that's fine. Zhonya's making you more tanky towards physical and giving you even more survivability with an immunity active is fine, if not a bit crazy.

On the other hand, slows benefit the entire team, detriment all enemies, and have versatile uses. It can be built by someone far behind and still be useful, and it can be built by someone ahead and be as useful as rabadon's and void staff. It should be made into a purely utility item with CDR, mana and only 60 AP, or a glass cannon item with 100 AP only with maybe a few other stats like movespeed, MPen or something and a much cheaper price.

The final solution is to not let it be a damage dealer's item at all, and make the AP 30-50 AP, converting it into an AP bruiser item. Tankiness + utility is alright with bruisers, just not with damage dealers, as it implies the item also meets the minimum damage requirements to be a carry item. As someone who's built Zz'rot on Soraka and considers BoC on Anivia on a regular basis, (... And was among the first to notice how frost queen's claim can be used by AP mids...), I'll find a way to get it into my main build anyway, even if it means having crap damage.

Vistha Kai3 votes

An alternative route would be to to stop nerfing AP every major patch.

A year ago RCS was a core on selected few champions. Now it's a norm. The funny thing is nothing changed about Rylai's since then.

So what did? Nerf to RoA. Nerf to Zhonya. Nerf to Abyssal Scepter.

Abyssphere2 votes

Also indirect nerfs to Deathcap and Luden's from AP on other items being reduced. Squishy AP builds are harder to make and less rewarding when you do attempt them.

zacktootall3 votes

[deleted]

Critmaster Garen31 votes

{quoted}

i think the change was to make them less tanky you know?

which is exactly the wrong direction theyre going in.

the champions who actually care about rylais health arent the problem. its the champions who are abusing the passive to ridiculous levels.

WoonStruck3 votes

Its both the passive and the champions in question.

Many champions used to have their single target abilities considered as AoE or even DoT for the purposes of spellvamp and Rylai's.

They removed that on Cass after she was unanimously considered utter garbage last rework in a sad attempt to make her viable. They never restored that little restriction with her latest rework.

A few other champions got this benefit as a 'buff' when they were weak without Riot realizing that there was a reason for it being there in the first place.

However, the reason its such a strong item right now is the AP that it offers more than specific champion interactions.

One of the biggest HP, AP, and utility items a mage can get, all in one package that costs far less than Deathcap? There's no reason NOT to grab it.

Dengeden1 votes

Tankiness is never a bad thing on any champion. The champions who build Rylai's specifically for health are niche, few and far between. I mean really, who are they Morde and Vlad? One a jack of all trades that can build anything and the other an LCS pick. It's unlikely the loss of health will affect them that much. And if not, you'd like solo lane Morde buffs.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Tankiness is never a bad thing on any champion. The champions who build Rylai's specifically for health are niche, few and far between. I mean really, who are they Morde and Vlad? One a jack of all trades that can build anything and the other an LCS pick. It's unlikely the loss of health will affect them that much. And if not, you'd like solo lane Morde buffs.

i can think of morde, vlad, and rumble.

but thats exactly the problem. the champions who are buying the item for the stats arent the issue. its champions like malzahar, zyra, azir and other mages with damage over time + aoe abilities and already inbuilt cc who are abusing the shit out of its passive.

lowering the health on the item and adding other caster stats like mana or cdr hits the champions who arent a problem with the item while making it even better for those who abuse the shit out of it.

the only change that would come from this is that the 2 or 3 champions who bought the item for the stats are nerfed and it becomes even more of a core item on every other mage.

Dengeden1 votes

How did you miss my first sentence? Tankiness is never a bad thing.

It's also ridiculous to say CDR is a useful stat when everyone here was whining how easy it is to overcap on CDR. Especially when you consider they'll undoubtedly nerf the health first and leave it at that.

Also, again, the AP bruisers who build it are either staple LCS picks, who can use the nerfs, or Morde, who can use the stat buffs.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

How did you miss my first sentence? Tankiness is never a bad thing.

It's also ridiculous to say CDR is a useful stat when everyone here was whining how easy it is to overcap on CDR. Especially when you consider they'll undoubtedly nerf the health first and leave it at that.

Also, again, the AP bruisers who build it are either staple LCS picks, who can use the nerfs, or Morde, who can use the stat buffs.

i understand that defense is never a bad thing.

but increasing the offensive stats on the item and reducing the hp, makes it still more useful for burst mages and especially the sustained damage mages who are entirely ridiculous with rylais passive.

at the same time it makes the item less useful for battlemages, and morde.

fiddling with the stats doesnt fix the problem of champion kit interaction with the passive that allows them to permaslow opponents. which is the actual problem with rylais right now.

nerfing the health for mana and cdr hits the wrong champions, and just makes it a rush item on champions who abuse the passive.

Ahristocats8 votes

No it's not, read the quotes from Meddler they're doing this to make people buying Rylai for hp not buying Rylai

aka morde/vlad which are the least of our problems

especially vlad who rushes SV and zhonya then buys rylai, he's going to not change at all because i don't even realise it when vlad buys Rylai, he's just going to replace it by an other item.

Bladerunner77771 votes

idk how you play vlad

item 3152 item 3158 item 3116 item 3135 item 3089

item 3065 item 3157 are both only situational for me

Best princess EU15 votes

item 3065 is nowhere to be situational on vlad

in lcs, it's his first item in all games except maybe if he played against an AD

Bladerunner77772 votes

LCS =/= Solo Q vlad

The reason Vlad is picked in LCS is the same reason why Tahm, Lulu, Zilean, etc often find there way into LCS if they're viable at all: because they're super safe and boring. Vlad rushes SV in LCS so he can farm safely at little to no penalty and eventually he'll scale from csing safely all game

LCS vlad is a snoozefest

Fortunately, Riot realizes this and they are constantly trying to readjust him back into a fun champion (like the most recent set of changes)

Best princess EU6 votes

let me rephrase, every vladimir i see builds SV first, Tides of Blood a vladimir main in plat builds SV in every vlad games on his match history, that's not situational.

and builds do matter in lcs, because they build the best items in the game.

Bladerunner77771 votes

I don't care about what a single plat vlad main builds

I don't care about what "the pros" build

People have been copying the pros' Vladimir build for months, and he has sat at a sub 45% winrate for just as long (direct correlation). Playing the game the same way the LCS plays it doesn't work in a chaotic Ranked environment; this has been proven time and time again.

Spirit Visage is a good item, Spirit Visage is good on Vlad, rushing Spirit Visage/Zhonyas every game on Vlad is just... stupid.

GahRii3 votes

lol wut? I don't think you're aware of what spirit visage does.

you can be wrong and not angry, just move on from this conversation

Bladerunner77771 votes

Okay then, keep playing Vlad the way you're playing him and keep enjoying that global average 45% winrate.

GahRii3 votes

hey man, if you have some secret vladimir build that's going to take him over 50% winrate then feel free to share.

If you don't and just want to bash everyone that builds spirit visage then I don't really see the purpose behind this conversation.

Bladerunner77772 votes

Easy lane: item 3152 item 3116

Harder AP lane: item 3211 item 3152 item 3065

Harder AD lane: item 3191 item 3152 item 3157

Example full build: item 3152 item 3065 item 3158 item 3116 item 3135 item 3089 and situationally item 3157 if you really need the active for a fed bursty champion (replace deathcap)

Carnerox5 votes

{quoted}

Easy lane: item 3152 item 3116

Harder AP lane: item 3211 item 3152 item 3065

Harder AD lane: item 3191 item 3152 item 3157

Example full build: item 3152 item 3065 item 3158 item 3116 item 3135 item 3089 and situationally item 3157 if you really need the active for a fed bursty champion (replace deathcap)

https://i.gyazo.com/e12e65f3f5eff3f5f5f4fb82f0e8b5c6.png

How is that a secret build. All that changes is the build order.

47892 votes

build order is still important im a kass main, you dont rush a deathcap and get roa last, its actually pretty important, and this is just generalizing the basic vlad build

crippler382 votes

oh I see.... that's why I suck with vlad.... my builds suck!

Over Innsmouth3 votes

omgomgomgomgomg you're my favourite now.

Tychusfindlay9195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M4EhFxuA,comment-id=0000000100010000,timestamp=2016-10-07T09:15:59.019+0000)

item 3065 is nowhere to be situational on vlad

in lcs, it's his first item in all games except maybe if he played against an AD

Worlds isnt being played in 6.20

After 6.20, I dont think SV is a legitimate rush item anymore unless if youre against a hardcore lane bully. I think vlad is being pushed towards a more generic AP heavy mage build (unfortunately, he's going to be hurting on CDR since many CDR mage items have useless mana).

Auz the Ripper1 votes

He'll be fine on CDR Abyssal's, Zhonya's, Protobelt, Spirit Visage, and/or Ionian boots. All have passive or actives he likes too.

In today's day and age, you almost have to actively avoid hitting the CDR cap

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M4EhFxuA,comment-id=000000010001000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-07T17:28:16.327+0000)

He'll be fine on CDR Abyssal's, Zhonya's, Protobelt, Spirit Visage, and/or Ionian boots. All have passive or actives he likes too.

In today's day and age, you almost have to actively avoid hitting the CDR cap

The point of my post was that SV is slowly becoming more and more inefficient on vladimir with the changes coming out. AKA it's being pushed out of his standard build.

Zhonyas abyssal and protobelt will be a very very weak AP count build unless combined with deathcap and void staff, which would then take out rylais (or vice verse rylais takes out either the staff or dcap).

Auz the Ripper1 votes

the other stats help make up for the lower AP values in those three items plus the passives and actives are too desirable for Vlad to pass up. He'll never be glass cannon anyway, he's far too short ranged and relies far too much on DPS, plus his new Higher AP ratios also give you the leeway to build those lower AP items and still get a fair amount of damage out of the deal

Sniper 04 votes

Clearly the main reason you're catching so much heat is because you called SV situational. It's overall a really good buy on vlad unless you're playing against a heavy ad team. Rushing it is situational, such as vs a Rumble who's ahead.

Zhonya's, I would venture to say, is clearly a situational item, especially with his blood pool. Pulling rank on people also creates salt. xD

I agree with you in that the rush of either of those items is very situational. (You said a lot of this later, it's just easier to respond to the crux of your original arguement.)

Bladerunner77772 votes

Thanks man

It's kind of comical that I'm getting flamed for not playing one of the lowest winrate champions correctly, even though the data for patch 6.20 hasn't even been released so nobody has any evidence to back themselves up.

Maybe it's not build that's a problem. I personally take 3x Movespeed Quints, Storm Raider's Surge, AND Ghost/TP (I don't like flash on him and TP is safer laning).

Saianna2 votes

How is your mind working? Right now 90% of Rylai abuser doesn't give a shit about Hp

Congratz, you failed at brain logic.

Lots of DMG -> people (mages) die off fast

Lots of DMG -> Some way to bulk up for for example 400 HEALTH , while not losing much of damage -> Mage survive

This whole "Rylai rush" is caused by players trying to survive retarded damage ADCs dish out. Want it gone?

  1. Reduce AP ratio AND price on Rylai (hard)
  2. Overall reduce damage ADCs do by 20%
  3. Promote OTHER items for mages they could use instead of Rylais.
The Deckowner5 votes

No one is rushing Rylais to defend against ADC, your logic makes no sense.

These Rylais abusers gives 0 fuck about hp, they are mid long range burst/dps mages who kites the living dhit out of you with perma slow from rylais and short cd dmg abilities.

Saianna1 votes

they are mid long range burst/dps mages

Who happen to be also squishy AF.

The Deckowner1 votes

They can easily kill an adc before the adc kills them in early mid stage of the game, they don't rush rylais for the hp.

Saianna1 votes

sigh..

Look, if Rylai was bought only cause of slow & AP, then it'd have been spammed since season 0. But for some WEIRD reason it begun being (ab)used second after Riot overbuffed damage.

Mages don;t build tank-items. Nor HP-based items such as warmogs. They try to maximize usefullnes of items that provide necessary stats, right?

Then if they die too fast, CAUSE THEY DO, then obviously, they will try to find some solution for their squishy'ness.

You still disagree? You still think Cassiopeia needs her spammable slow from Rylai (which, obviously, is abusing this item), then remove health from rylai along with proper price drop. You'll see Rylai becoming next trash-tier, never used item.

The Deckowner5 votes

You clearly has no idea about the history of the game.

Rylais was shit tier until they buffed it and changed the build path from blasting rod to needlessly large rod. meaning MORE AP.

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