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Urgot is considered "Unfun" because of his strength/trades in lane

Drunk Rummate··4 votes·930 views

Vesh -

"Urgot has an invisible passive that means he just wins trades without having to do anything special. The enemy gets no play around it, they are just weaker when they fight Urgot. The combination of his base kit means that if you ever fail to dodge his aoe skill shot, he not only gets to do guaranteed damage to you until you leave his range, he also gets to slow you with this guaranteed damage so you cannot leave his range. "

You know what? I agree with this. I really do. But if you truly believe this Riot, then I'd recommend addressing more than just Urgot here. There are actually other champions who just 'win trades' without having to do anything special and I think you should address them all if you're going to address Urgot for that reason alone.

Allow me to take a moment to compare Urgot to Swain here, so that I can highlight what I think is a prime example. Urgot is in the limelight because he's notoriously been "bad" in the past and is now played in LCS because he's within his niche (tank meta); but Swain exhibits a lot of the same problems as Urgot and simply isn't as popular right now for whatever reason.

Without further ado, here is Swain's kit: Decrepify - this ability damages the target over time and slows them within a 900 range tether.

Sound familiar?
"...he not only gets to do guaranteed damage to you until you leave his range, he also gets to slow you with this guaranteed damage so you cannot leave his range."

Torment - this ability 'curses' Swains target causing them to take % increased damage over 4 seconds. Follow this up with any other ability for halal amounts of damage. No skillshot here friend, just click 2 win.

Sound familiar? "Urgot has an invisible passive that means he just wins trades without having to do anything special."

Last of all~~ Nevermove. Place an AOE skillshot that roots and damages your foe if they're inside at the end of the animation. If this lands you not only lose the trade to swain, but you also probably die.

Sound familiar? "The combination of his base kit means that** if you ever fail to dodge his aoe skill shot,**"... [then bad things happen - paraphrase, see above]

TL;DR - Urgot is not the only champion in this game with the issues you've described as a primary reason for reworking him. I applaud your attempts to make the game better in this regard, I think it's a great idea, but I merely ask for consistency across the board. I hope you also have Swain and other champions like him in your sights.

12 Comments

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

This would make more sense if Riot had also said "This is the last rework we are doing, everyone else is fine and there are no further plans to make changes to anyone". But they didn't, so maybe Swain will get changes that you like? Or maybe there's nothing wrong at all with him...

Drunk Rummate2 votes

It's naive to assume that simply because they haven't spoken on the topic means that they will address it. Lack of communication is not communication. Bringing it up increases the likelihood of that communciation, which I want. Therefore I made a thread.

And I just laid out an entire thread for why I think there's something wrong with Swain that's in line for the reasoning behind the Urgot rework. Unless you would like to dispute those claims then I can't see how there's "nothing wrong at all with him"

Deep Terror Nami1 votes

Where did I assume that they will do something about him? Nowhere.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valkyrie Witch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LwbMY8mA,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-13T18:37:41.252+0000)

Where did I assume that they will do something about him? Nowhere.

You said the thread would "make more sense" if Riot had specifically said this was the last rework they were doing. I think the thread makes plenty of sense and I just told you why.

Your statement either implies that we should assume they will do something since they never said anything to the contrary (lack of information is not information) OR we should assume that all the other champions are fine since they haven't been addressed (to which I just laid out information to the contrary).

Deep Terror Nami1 votes

No...my statement is implying that you shouldn't be making assumptions...

Drunk Rummate1 votes

Then your comment is completely useless considering I never assumed this was their last rework. Perhaps you misunderstood the point of this thread which was to open discussion on other champions with similar issues to Urgot. More likely you just skimmed it, and I can't blame you for that because it's long, but there's a TL;DR which sums it up you know.

Voluug131 votes

Of course both Urgot and Swain win trades. They are made to win their lanes, except its only specific lanes that they win. That is because they are counterpicks, and that is completly OK. Swain gets trashed in midlane against anything not melee (Anything not Katarina/Zed/Yasuo/Akali), while Urgot is utterly weak against strong all-ins and sustain (Fiora, Vlad and Rumble destroy him).

Both have their good lanes and bad lanes. I dont see a problem with that.

Urgot only got ''popular'' because of the meta shift. Swain has always been a counterpick, just like Janna, Malzahar and Heimerdinger.

Honestly speaking, Riot's logic is often contradiction or extremely flawed. Or simply trying to spoonfeed a game design that completly devalues anything not called twitch reflexes (aka ''counterplay'').

Vistha Kai3 votes

If I had to chose between Swain QW's uncounterable damage(inb4 QSS or Flash argument) and twitch reflexes, I'd take "counterplay" any day.

Also, what is Yasuo going to do exactly? Sit behind the tower?

Voluug131 votes

Maybe dont pick Yasuo into Swain in the first place? The same way you dont pick Lux/Vel'koz/Ziggs/Nidalee into Yasuo?

I mean, if Yasuo gets to hardcounter skillshot reliant champions, he should be, in all fairness, be hardcountered by something else too. If scissors counters paper, but there is no rock/rock is too weak, who counters scissors?

Yasuo (and Zed) make several champion ''sit behind tower'' (not even that is safe against Zed), but the moment someone does that to them, and only them, those champions are ''unfun'' and ''uncounterable''?

Your bias is pretty clear in that regard.

Vistha Kai1 votes

My bias is that I consider Yasuo awfully weak and play him once in a blue moon.

You can fight Yasuo with any champion, even with skillshots.

Laning aganist Swain is determined by the champion select, because:

  1. Swain has no mechanics, landing snare isn't necessary to do anything.
  2. Swain's enemy can't do anything aganist Swain unless they outrange him.
Voluug131 votes

Yasuo being awfully weak isnt anyone's fault except CertainlyT, as he was the one to utterly bloat his kit, and the balance team for nerfing him in the wrong places.

Wanting to get counterpicks nerfed for being counterpicks is a silly concept on its own, and one extremely individualistic and shallow at that. Nerfing Swain wont do anything to improve Yasuo's state, aside from making the rare game where a decent Swain appears slightly easier. What Yasuo needs is a flat rebalance of his kit, to give strengh in the parts that he needs to, basically, what is said in this thread: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/lBkYPFEW-as-a-plat-1-yasuo-main-with-400-yasuo-games-yasuo-needs-a-damn-rework

You have to understand that the massive strenghts of hypermobile assassins makes low counterplay high counterpick (and thus high risk high reward) kits like Swain, Malzahar and Heimerdinger a complete necessity, at least until mobility is put a leash on.

Vistha Kai1 votes

We have a number of overloaded kits, but nobody bats an eye unless that kit belongs to a manaless/carry/assassin champion.

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