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Tanks are much healthier when they do sustained damage than burst damage

Moody P·Nov 12, 2018·84 votes·19,270 views

Change my mind on this. I can't think of a single tank who's capable of bursting me hard without building some damage for it that I'd consider a healthy champion.

Champions that started out as primarily sustained damage threats and became bursty - notably after the tank reworks - are also champions that have been an absolute menace to balance between said burst damage and their CC. Sejuani is losing her CC for more burst damage*, and Zac has already lost all his damage to retain his CC. Maokai, which happens to be the least offensive tank of the three, delivers his damage out in steady rotations. Farther back, Nautilus got changes that shifted him from DPSing people down with his W to chunking you with his E, and he's been a mess ever since, one that Riot is still hesitant to address.

Sion bursts you obscenely hard and we've had him become a recurring issue in top lane where he just becomes the top laner. Either with E max or Q max, either one leads him to hitting you with obscene chunks at a time. Poppy has a fairly good situational burst combo but over the course of a fight her damage leans into sustained threat, and she's been relatively minor on 'balance issues,' I'd say. Ornn? Bursty; huge problem champion. Galio? Bursty; huge problem champion. It's hard not to notice the trend that tanks being capable of chunking or outright killing you in a shorter span than before, on top of them having more CC than they used to, is a glaring issue with Riot's new tank designs.

This isn't to say that DPS-minded tanks aren't problematic but it's usually because of unrelated qualities. For example, Shen's global presence and Tahm's W used to save allies have made them much more troublesome than their damage outputs. Rammus and Malphite are DPS-y but they only get out of hand in very AD heavy metas, which is what they're supposed to do.

So, I'll repeat; tanks should be sustained threats and not burst ones.

138 Comments

RalanrNov 12, 201812 votes

Honestly I feel tanks being more sustained damage puts them at too much of a disadvantage against fighters, but I think that’s enough to get me downvoted.

Moody PNov 12, 201812 votes

Depends on the tank, depends on the fighter.

Malphite is a solid DPS and he dumps most AD/AS fighters once he gets going

RalanrNov 12, 20185 votes

Unless he builds AP, then he’s just a burst champion.

Moody PNov 12, 20188 votes

I'm strictly talking tank builds since that's how they're designed and balanced around

I don't mind tanks investing into damage to burst but I take issue with them when they don't

RalanrNov 12, 20182 votes

Ok. Though a lot of people go these builds to gain burst damage when being tanky isn’t cutting it or their DPS builds are too slow. The last time I saw a full tank Amumu was when I played him, most others I see invest in AP.

I don’t believe all tanks should be DPS, nor do I think they should all be bursty. I like my bursty tanks (Sion, Poppy) because instead of getting stuck in fights that I’ll lose if they last too long, I can use my combo and leave. Not every tank needs to do this however.

Iota ThetaNov 12, 20184 votes

It’s an honest opinion and an interesting point, so shouldn’t be downvoted. It begs the question of how tanks should match up against fighters, which I think we’ve seen people have differing opinions on that.

Should tanks have favorable trades via more burst damage? Should all tanks have to interact and trade with their opponent? What’s the expected general state of the lane: fighter has priority and pushes tank in, forcing tank to waveclear? Even because of slightly higher damage on the fighter’s side with less defense? How do these transition to mid-late game, and how should the game be tuned for that?

I’m not expecting answer, these are just questions my brain kind of goes through. My perspective is the fighter should have lane dominance since tanks have more power in teamfights, which technically would mean fighters are better in solo (which they are) with tanks less so, but making up for it in more coordinated arenas. Unpopular and has gotten downvotes as well, but that’s my perspective.

RalanrNov 12, 20182 votes

Imo it depends on their intended lane.

Top lane? Needs damage and ways to trade in order to interact and prevent sand bagging.

Jungle? Needs damage to clear the jungle effectively.

Support? Doesn’t need much damage, but more reliable CC and peeling power.

Iota ThetaNov 12, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Imo it depends on their intended lane.

Top lane? Needs damage and ways to trade in order to interact and prevent sand bagging.

Jungle? Needs damage to clear the jungle effectively.

Support? Doesn’t need much damage, but more reliable CC and peeling power.

Good points.

Top lane: I’m slightly torn on “sand bagging.” I understand that it’s less interactive and people don’t want that, but I feel like there's some space for a tank or two to have the ability to do so. It comes at the cost of tower pressure from the tank, and opens up for heir opponent to roam more. It’s also handy on lane opponents that might just screw over tanks early. Just giving them damage won’t always cause them to interact.

Jungle, agreed. If people complain about jungle tank damage some could possibly be a net 0 shifted into bonus damage to monsters from base damage.

Support, agreed wholly.

I kind of roam between all three as necessary, so it’s possible I blur requirements sometimes. Like I said elsewhere in here, i believe there should be room for both burst and sustained damage tanks. Maybe jungle would be more sustained damage focused? That’d be tough to separate them.

RalanrNov 12, 20183 votes

When it comes to Sandbagging, I tend to think of old Shen. The guy who would not lose CS under tower, not fight you at all unless his jungler came, and could ult to bot lane, then teleport back top without giving you much advantage. You're correct that just giving then damage won't force them to interact, hence with Shen's rework (which has it's own problems) they forced his kit to require fights.

As for the jungle, I'm not particularly a fan of getting bonus damage to monsters as it forces those tanks to just stay in the jungle. I tend to not like most of the main tank junglers (Sejuani, Zac) and I like variety. But it can be used as a balance lever. Personally, sustained damage tanks make more sense in the jungle, because you're not worried about trades.

Iota ThetaNov 12, 20182 votes

{quoted}

When it comes to Sandbagging, I tend to think of old Shen. The guy who would not lose CS under tower, not fight you at all unless his jungler came, and could ult to bot lane, then teleport back top without giving you much advantage. You're correct that just giving then damage won't force them to interact, hence with Shen's rework (which has it's own problems) they forced his kit to require fights.

As for the jungle, I'm not particularly a fan of getting bonus damage to monsters as it forces those tanks to just stay in the jungle. I tend to not like most of the main tank junglers (Sejuani, Zac) and I like variety. But it can be used as a balance lever. Personally, sustained damage tanks make more sense in the jungle, because you're not worried about trades.

Ahhh, that type of sand bagging. Yeah, I very much agree with being against that. His healing mark did not help that one bit. Although, and this is just me being unaware of how his kit has been for almost a year, is the forcing him to fight more the energy regen on his skills for hitting enemy champs, especially with pass through empowered Q?

Yeah, that does force them more into jungle, good point. It’d have to be tuned to allow the flexibility if it was an option. I can understand not being into Zac or Sejuani, cause I’m not as into them either (Favorite jungle tank is Maokai at the moment). Sustained would probably be a better option, like how Maokai and Rammus tend to work in the jungle. I kind of hope the next new tank is a more jungle focused one. It’s an area I want to work on more, thus my Maokai, learning Nunu & Willump, maybe Rammus. Possibly Ornn, but with his changes and the current ult visual bug (ult passes super quick to Ornn and it’s actual position is invisible, forcing one to rely on muscle memory for timing but since it had been so long...), I haven’t been able to play him as well since I got back into League, not sure.

RalanrNov 12, 20182 votes

I could be wrong on Shen, but I believe the forcing him to fight is more or less removing his poke in lane.

Iota ThetaNov 12, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I could be wrong on Shen, but I believe the forcing him to fight is more or less removing his poke in lane.

Ahh. So not really forcing him to have to fight, but forcing him into situations where he can be jumped and forced into trades. Got it. Thank you.

SuffocateMeDaddyNov 12, 20182 votes

Tanks should be in disadvantage to fighters wtf? Entire fighter class is based on sustained DPS and they are even fucking supposed to counter tanks in first place?

RalanrNov 12, 20181 votes

If tanks aren’t supposed to have a chance in top lane then frankly there’s no reason for them to go there. Riot could just make all tanks junglers or supports, but they don’t.

SuffocateMeDaddyNov 12, 20181 votes

Self awareness much? If tanks are viable fighters arent. PERIOD. Thats how top lane functions. And honestly if you have to choose between class of champions that is half as big as fighter roster, that also forces ADC to play only and only hyper carries, its kinda no fucking brainer to not choose the other better, more diverse, interesting and skill reflecting option.

RalanrNov 12, 20181 votes

So tanks should never be viable?

SuffocateMeDaddyNov 12, 20181 votes

Obviously. Unless you of course enjoy stale meta with same 4 adcies, same 4 tanks,same 3 supports, same game format and sacrificing entire fighter roster again. Hello season 5 and lowest amount of top lane mains.

Iota ThetaNov 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pin me daddy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=000200020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-12T23:18:02.597+0000)

Obviously. Unless you of course enjoy stale meta with same 4 adcies, same 4 tanks,same 3 supports, same game format and sacrificing entire fighter roster again. Hello season 5 and lowest amount of top lane mains.

So, we should just delete the entire tank class and then you can have a slugfest in toplane? Congrats that’s what they’re doing.

Sure, let’s make one of the most team-reliant, team focused classes in a team oriented game completely unusuable, effectively deleting them, despite what the mains of that class say. That’ll make things so balanced, all that damage and damage.

Fun fact, it’s that tank on your team that allows you as a fighter to do what you need to do when it comes time to teamfights. Otherwise, you’d be the first one focused, taking all their CDs, and killed.

SuffocateMeDaddyNov 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=0002000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-13T10:41:32.797+0000)

So, we should just delete the entire tank class and then you can have a slugfest in toplane? Congrats that’s what they’re doing.

This game would be so much more fun without tanks and assassins. Dont believe me? Ask any adc main any top main and mage main what they think about tank metas. Yeah fun is relative, but as long as democracy exists voice of majority should matter. People like fun. Im sorry you dont like fun. But thats how it is. Riot saw what tank metas did, how boring LCS games were, how many people started quitting the game.

Sure, let’s make one of the most team-reliant, team focused classes in a team oriented game completely unusuable, effectively deleting them, despite what the mains of that class say. That’ll make things so balanced, all that damage and damage.

Tank mains and support mains have one thing in common. They talk in echo chambers. Its them against the world. Thats why they dont see other side of the argument. Thats why you do not understand the fundamental issues with your class. Tanks in PVP games CANNOT FUNCTION. Tank is PVE class that relies on STUPIDITY OF AI to focus you to be useful. However unlucky for you players tend to have brains. Not always, but the higher you go the more braincells on average player. How do you make TANK, A CLASS RELIANT ON DRAGGING AGGRO useful against functional human beings? By buffing their defense? Really? Youll get ignored just like tanks were ignored in season 3. Thats why they keep buffing damage over and over again. Thats why tanks get overloaded kits. Because they need it to be useful. Which in turn creates endless loop of buff cycles. Why do you think they even released conqueror? BECAUSE TANKS COULD DUEL DUELISTS. Why could they duel duelists? BECAUSE IF THEY COULDNT NOONE WOULD PLAY THEM. But if they can duel duelists why would you pick duelists? So they released conqueror. And right now they are buffing tanks again. Same cycle again. Simply because your class is fundamentally disfunctional.

Fun fact, it’s that tank on your team that allows you as a fighter to do what you need to do when it comes time to teamfights. Otherwise, you’d be the first one focused, taking all their CDs, and killed.

Fun fact, I main top and I got diamond 3 as Camille main on EUTHRASH. Unless Camille is tank, then I didnt need tanks to let me do what I wanted to do. Or perhaps Kha zix was a tank? Or maybe Graves was a tank? HMMMMM? Tanks arent needed in mobas. They never were.

Iota ThetaNov 13, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pin me daddy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=00020002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-13T12:01:57.077+0000)

This game would be so much more fun without tanks and assassins. Dont believe me? Ask any adc main any top main and mage main what they think about tank metas. Yeah fun is relative, but as long as democracy exists voice of majority should matter. People like fun. Im sorry you dont like fun. But thats how it is. Riot saw what tank metas did, how boring LCS games were, how many people started quitting the game.

This game would be a killfest/slugfest with neither tanks nor assassins. No real stragety, just whichever champ has the best damage wins.

Wow, nice ad hominem. Idk any adc main that complains about tanks beyond what damage some of them put out. Mage mains mainly complain about MR. Like you said, fun is relative. you may hate tanks and say they aren’t fun, but you are only you. Even other fighter mains try to balance tanks, mages and adcs know how valuable they can be in teamfights. You? You just want two classes eliminated.

Ironic how you talk about how Riot made changes after tank meta made LCS games “boring” (can’t be worse than tower trade meta), then say the majority should decide things, because after that they shortened games and a majority on the boards hate that change and still ask for games to be extended. To do that, damage champs can’t be the only thing.

Tank mains and support mains have one thing in common. They talk in echo chambers. Its them against the world. Thats why they dont see other side of the argument. Thats why you do not understand the fundamental issues with your class. Tanks in PVP games CANNOT FUNCTION. Tank is PVE class that relies on STUPIDITY OF AI to focus you to be useful. However unlucky for you players tend to have brains. Not always, but the higher you go the more braincells on average player. How do you make TANK, A CLASS RELIANT ON DRAGGING AGGRO useful against functional human beings? By buffing their defense? Really? Youll get ignored just like tanks were ignored in season 3. Thats why they keep buffing damage over and over again. Thats why tanks get overloaded kits. Because they need it to be useful. Which in turn creates endless loop of buff cycles. Why do you think they even released conqueror? BECAUSE TANKS COULD DUEL DUELISTS. Why could they duel duelists? BECAUSE IF THEY COULDNT NOONE WOULD PLAY THEM. But if they can duel duelists why would you pick duelists? So they released conqueror. And right now they are buffing tanks again. Same cycle again. Simply because your class is fundamentally disfunctional.

Hilarious. You say tanks can’t function in pvp, that people would just ignore them. This is why they’re given CC and utility in teamfights, because you can’t kill if you can’t do anything, and if you don’t kill that tank, they’ll make sure you can’t kill their team.

They also find their best balance in the pros and coordinated play, alongside fighters, assassins, adcs, mages, and supports. Without tanks, you have less outright engage power. Without Warden tanks, you have less peel and disengage. After all, this past worlds had fighters with high priority, and tanks could still fit in their proper place.

Fun fact, I main top and I got diamond 3 as Camille main on EUTHRASH. Unless Camille is tank, then I didnt need tanks to let me do what I wanted to do. Or perhaps Kha zix was a tank? Or maybe Graves was a tank? HMMMMM? Tanks arent needed in mobas. They never were.

I never said you played tanks. But who were your supports in those matches? Or junglers (i highly doubt it was only those 4)? Tanks aren’t just toplaners. Remove tanks and you lose the Braum and Leona supports, or Taric.

Every class is needed in this game for a purpose. Mages and assassins kill the carries and each other, tanks and supports protect the carries, tanks engage teamfights the best and provide lockdown, adcs and fighters typically kill tanks and objectives with sustained damage.

QuadraBananasNov 12, 20184 votes

Garen can kill any squishy in one combo with only item 3071 ... that's 40 ad (with armor shreeding) an adc that use skills (like lucian) doesnt do that much

and garen doesnt even spin for a long time for it to be enaugh. Q+1 sec spin+R=kill on a silenced target

ZephyrDrakeNov 12, 201840 votes

{quoted}

can kill any squishy in one combo with only ... that's 40 ad (with armor shreeding) an adc that use skills (like lucian) doesnt do that much

now if Garen was only a tank your argument would actually mean something

Moody PNov 12, 201823 votes

Garen isn't a tank and his CC doesn't compare to a tank's output. It's reasonable that he does the damage he does because he can't initiate on you from range with a hard gapcloser or a stun.

Also that unlike most of these tanks he's actually buying damage

QuadraBananasNov 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-11-12T11:28:33.978+0000)

Garen isn't a tank and his CC doesn't compare to a tank's output. It's reasonable that he does the damage he does because he can't initiate on you from range with a hard gapcloser or a stun.

Also that unlike most of these tanks he's actually buying damage

well, if you exclude every bruiser, i dont know any tanky champion that can burst... i think

Iota ThetaNov 12, 201810 votes

{quoted}

well, if you exclude every bruiser, i dont know any tanky champion that can burst... i think

His point that they can burst targets, like an assassin. He’s trying to say that a tank that has all their damage in one longer CD combo, like Sejuani, or Malphite (for an older example), then it’s less healthy than if their damage is spread out over the fight, like Amumu’s W, Old Sejuani’s W, or lesser damage release Ornn’s W (as health got lower), Naut’s W, or lower overall CDs outside ult like Maokai (who prefers to stay in the fight after his initial engage cause he gets more heals off. As far as I’ve played I haven’t done more burst-like damage as a full tank build on him).

ZephyrDrakeNov 12, 20182 votes

Galio is only "bursty" if he builds pure AP and the same can be said about pretty much every tank in the game. Sorry but if a tank is "bursting" you with next to no damage items then either that tank is hilariously fed, you are hilariously behind or both

Moody PNov 12, 201832 votes

Bursty =/= 100-0 burst. Galio either delivers his payload in one quick rotation or avoids interaction altogether and uses Q for poke. Every new tank is bursty. This is just a fact.

I know there's a lot of tank fetishists on this forum but try to be reasonable.

ZephyrDrakeNov 12, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-12T11:20:41.964+0000)

Bursty =/= 100-0 burst. Galio either delivers his payload in one quick rotation or avoids interaction altogether and uses Q for poke. Every new tank is bursty. This is just a fact.

I know there's a lot of tank fetishists on this forum but try to be reasonable.

sorry but then it's not burst. Sorry to say this but dodge skillshots and you don't lose health. Simple as that. No tank can burst you down and require a lot of time to kill you. Sorry but TRY AGAIN!

Moody PNov 12, 201811 votes

Unsurprising argument for a tank apologist to make, yikes

ZephyrDrakeNov 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-12T11:26:53.824+0000)

Unsurprising argument for a tank apologist to make, yikes

unsurprising argument from someone who just wants to complain about things for the sake of complaining about them

Moody PNov 12, 201819 votes

"It didn't kill me, so it wasn't burst."

I guess every assassin that only takes you to 10% health in one rotation and forced you off a fight didn't 'burst' you then. Your arbitrary definition of what constitutes 'burst' is ridiculous, ignoring that every recent tank does, indeed, deliver their damage in bursts and then waits for modest-to-long cooldowns to do it again.

I wouldn't expect Boards to do anything but swear up and down that tanks are beyond unplayable and refuse to ever look at what might be driving their issues though. I've come to find that I should lower my standards when conversing here.

ZephyrDrakeNov 12, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-12T11:34:44.616+0000)

"It didn't kill me, so it wasn't burst."

I guess every assassin that only takes you to 10% health in one rotation and forced you off a fight didn't 'burst' you then. Your arbitrary definition of what constitutes 'burst' is ridiculous, ignoring that every recent tank does, indeed, deliver their damage in bursts and then waits for modest-to-long cooldowns to do it again.

I wouldn't expect Boards to do anything but swear up and down that tanks are beyond unplayable and refuse to ever look at what might be driving their issues though. I've come to find that I should lower my standards when conversing here.

all I see is someone who has no idea what burst means and just wants to use the word like a buzzword like every single boards member who just want to use buzzwords in a desperate attempt to make their arguments be valid in any way shape or form. Sorry to say this but NO TANK CAN BURST! you can say whatever you want but the only way a tank that is building like a tank can burst anyone is literally if they are hilariously ahead, the target is hilariously behind or both. If it takes the tank like 5+ rotations to kill someone then that tank isn't bursting anyone down

Warlord RhinarkNov 12, 201818 votes

{quoted}

all I see is someone who has no idea what burst means and just wants to use the word like a buzzword like every single boards member who just want to use buzzwords in a desperate attempt to make their arguments be valid in any way shape or form. Sorry to say this but NO TANK CAN BURST! you can say whatever you want but the only way a tank that is building like a tank can burst anyone is literally if they are hilariously ahead, the target is hilariously behind or both. If it takes the tank like 5+ rotations to kill someone then that tank isn't bursting anyone down

If a champion deals all of it's damage in one rotation, it's burst damage.

If a champion deals damage continuously over time, it's sustained damage.

If a Tank's damage output is dropped in one rotation and isn't over time, then it's burst damage.

I don't see how it can get anymore simple than this.

AlzonNov 12, 20182 votes

Tanks are unplayable unless it’s someone else playing them, in which case they outdamage all the carries :^)

VelasanNov 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Tanks are unplayable unless it’s someone else playing them, in which case they outdamage all the carries :^)

Can I just say in all fairness, that while I know you're joking playing tanks this season has indeed been miserable. For the entire first half of the season almost nothing you could do actually made you tanky because everyone was playing damage and then they added Conqueror on top of that and gave True damage to Infinity Edge item 3031 .

Add to that how popular damage supports have been this season and that most tanks can't properly contest scuttle and it just felt like Riot basically said if you like to play tanks your play style is invalid. You could often be against teams of Brand support, Kaisa/Varus/Twitch, Ekko, Yi/Jax in jungle, Fiora top etc and every single one of them has some form of true damage or percentage health damage. Wasn't until 8.16 when some of the damage was lowered and several tanks buffed that they started to come back.

In the same way as in earlier seasons they probably over buffed tanks in s5 or mages when they used to have more safety, this season has been molded for assassins and fighters. However, bending the normal rules of the game in a dozen ways to make those characters better has also been horribly disruptive on the game state and balance.

Just felt that needed to be said with all jokes aside, because while I play both tanks and fighters, I feel for other people who tried to play tanks this season; it was rough.

Iota ThetaNov 12, 201810 votes

{quoted}

sorry but then it's not burst. Sorry to say this but dodge skillshots and you don't lose health. Simple as that. No tank can burst you down and require a lot of time to kill you. Sorry but TRY AGAIN!

Damage in a burst does not always mean a tank one shotting a person, but all their damage coming out at once.

Take Sejuani current vs old:

Current Sejuani lands Q, and starts stacking her E stacks. Once that’s done, she deals a burst of damage in E -> aa -> R -> aa. Whereas Old Sejuani’s damage relied on fights lasting longer and ataying among the enemy team, dealing less damage up front and instead have it spread out over time.

Malphite is another good example of a burst style tank, unloading all his skills at the start of the fight, and with his base values it’s a burst of damage. Might not one-shot without his AP build, but it’s still considered a burst. On the other hand, tank build Amumu is about half burst and half sustained, since his W becomes a good portion of his damage at that point.

VerxintNov 12, 20185 votes

You're missing the point. Tanks with a pattern of doing quick bursts of damage instead of slowly wearing you down while taking your counterattacks tend to be more of an issue

Pika FoxNov 12, 20181 votes

Theyre giving more damage to tanks and nerfing utility because its the most effective way to nerf pro play while buffing lower elo play.

Aka, theyre fixing sej like everyone wanted.

Sions a juggernaut.

Poppy isnt a tank.

Moody PNov 12, 201810 votes

No they aren't

No he isn't

Yes she is

Pika FoxNov 12, 20181 votes

Yes they are.

Yes he is.

No she isnt.

RalanrNov 12, 20188 votes

Both Poppy and Sion have too much CC and utility to be classified as any kind of fighter. They are both tanks, one is a Vanguard, the other is a Warden.

Pika FoxNov 12, 20182 votes

Sion is a juggernaut. He doesnt have more CC than other juggernauts, especially given his Q is conditional and R is both an ult and difficult to land outside point blank (which has a low CC duration).

Poppy cannot effectively fulfil the role of warden unless picked as a counterpick. She is a niche warden at best, but is generally a tanky fighter who puts someone into a wall and damages them.

RalanrNov 12, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=00070000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-12T17:52:11.402+0000)

Sion is a juggernaut. He doesnt have more CC than other juggernauts, especially given his Q is conditional and R is both an ult and difficult to land outside point blank (which has a low CC duration).

...what?

Sion has two slows, and two AoE hard CC abilities. Them being difficult to land or conditional doesn’t actually matter. What juggernaut has as much CC as Sion?

Poppy cannot effectively fulfil the role of warden unless picked as a counterpick. She is a niche warden at best, but is generally a tanky fighter who puts someone into a wall and damages them.

No, Poppy doesn’t need to just use her W to be a Warden. Her ult is good in many situations, and her E is still very useful for peeling when she needs to.

Poppy’s kit has leanings towards defensive or reactive protection while still being an effective top laner. She’s basically a shield that you hit people with. To claim that a shield can only be used defensively is ignorant.

Pika FoxNov 12, 20182 votes

Poppy needs more than her E to be a good warden. Peeling 1 person just isnt good enough. She lacks the control necessary. Hell, even her E is situational. Morganna is a better "warden" than poppy most of the time.

And sion has a conditional hard CC, and another on his ult. Thats all he has. Both are easily dodged. He, again, lacks the guaranteed control necessary to tank.

Sions best builds are also very offensive heavy. He doesnt build tanky. Ghostblade isnt a tank item. He primarily builds AD and is even rewarded for it by doing massive damage on death through autos.

RalanrNov 12, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=0007000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-12T18:07:12.558+0000)

Poppy needs more than her E to be a good warden. Peeling 1 person just isnt good enough. She lacks the control necessary. Hell, even her E is situational. Morganna is a better "warden" than poppy most of the time.

On a basic ability, it is fine as is, especially with what her W ends up countering.
Morgana is a whole different class, and as dumb as it sounds, a big difference in class separation is usually range.

And sion has a conditional hard CC, and another on his ult. Thats all he has. Both are easily dodged. He, again, lacks the guaranteed control necessary to tank.

That doesn’t make Sion any less of a tank. He’s intentionally designed to have difficulty in Landing his abilities because of how impactful they are.

Sions best builds are also very offensive heavy. He doesnt build tanky. Ghostblade isnt a tank item. He primarily builds AD and is even rewarded for it by doing massive damage on death through autos.

Builds don’t determine class. Graves isn’t a burst Mage if he builds AP to turn his smoke bomb into a burst grenade.

Pika FoxNov 12, 20181 votes

Again, poppys W is niche. She is, at best, a niche warden. Most matchups she cannot successfully control the field enough to be a warden.

Tanks physically cannot have abilities that are unreliable. You need guaranteed control. Sion is a juggernaut. His CC comes at the cost of a heavy, telegraphed delay, and he is built moreso to be a giant, immobile beat stick that does damage. Sion is not a control/CC bot.

Builds do play a role in determining class. Graves doesnt have enough AP scaling to he a burst caster. However, kaisa does have enough to be an APC. Like wise, ziggs and azir can be built as APCs, as both have amazing objective control and auto damage, even if ziggs is primarily a control mage.

RalanrNov 12, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=000700000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-12T18:40:54.224+0000)

Again, poppys W is niche. She is, at best, a niche warden. Most matchups she cannot successfully control the field enough to be a warden.

Tanks physically cannot have abilities that are unreliable. You need guaranteed control. Sion is a juggernaut. His CC comes at the cost of a heavy, telegraphed delay, and he is built moreso to be a giant, immobile beat stick that does damage. Sion is not a control/CC bot.

Ok I think I understand what point you’re making: Tanks need to have reliable abilities.

Let me explain that this is incorrect.

Reliability vs unreliablity: If a tank has an ability that is unreliable, it means that the ability can miss or be avoided based on player vs player skill. This isn’t like the RNG of crit. The reason why Maokai’s W is reliable is that a bad or good Maokai can land it without a problem. Adding unreliable abilities to tanks (abilities that can miss or be dodged) adds a new skill floor or skill ceiling to the champion. This is generally how tanks are being designed nowadays, with more ways to dodge or miss abilities so it better rewards players who practice them.

Builds do play a role in determining class. Graves doesnt have enough AP scaling to he a burst caster. However, kaisa does have enough to be an APC. Like wise, ziggs and azir can be built as APCs, as both have amazing objective control and auto damage, even if ziggs is primarily a control mage.

No. Builds do not determine class in the slightest. Builds can alter playstyles to a point, but they don’t change what the champion is designed to do.

Kai’sa will always be a marksman despite building AD or AP. Her role won’t change from being a high DPS champion, even with a little more burst from her W.

Ziggs and Azir (I’m not sure on his class) aren’t APC’s officially because APC is not an official classification. They are mages that are really good at certain things (like objectives with Ziggs) because their kits point them in that role. If a Ziggs is 12/0 he’s still a control or objective Mage, he’s just doing enough damage to enemy champions to be a threat.

Builds do not determine class. Champion kits do.

Pika FoxNov 12, 20181 votes

Unreliable does not mean it can miss. Leona is a reliable tank; her ult and E can miss, but you can always land them if you aim properly.

Sion and poppy are unreliable tanks because sions utility can miss even if you play well because theyre meant to be easily dodgeable, and poppys main warden trait, her w, only works on select abilities, of which only a smaller set of champions would be what youre trying to tank for/prevent getting to your back line.

Marksmen is a terrible overarching role. The correct term is ADC and APC. Yas, trynd and yi all fill the same role as marksmen do, but are melee. Graves and kindred are both ADCs primarily played elsewhere. Marksmen is not a good class description.

RalanrNov 12, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LuAuIO4b,comment-id=00070000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-12T19:12:10.272+0000)

Unreliable does not mean it can miss. Leona is a reliable tank; her ult and E can miss, but you can always land them if you aim properly.

Sion and poppy are unreliable tanks because sions utility can miss even if you play well because theyre meant to be easily dodgeable, and poppys main warden trait, her w, only works on select abilities, of which only a smaller set of champions would be what youre trying to tank for/prevent getting to your back line.

You’re telling me that Sion’s abilities are unreliable because they can be dodged even if Aimed well but Leona’s abilities can’t be dodged even if aimed well?

That’s simply not true. Aiming well means you actually landed the ability.

Marksmen is a terrible overarching role. The correct term is ADC and APC. Yas, trynd and yi all fill the same role as marksmen do, but are melee. Graves and kindred are both ADCs primarily played elsewhere. Marksmen is not a good class description.

Marksmen description: Marksmen excel at dealing reliable sustained damage at range (usually through basic attacks) while constantly skirting the edge of danger. Although Marksmen have the ability to stay relatively safe by kiting their foes, they are very fragile and are extremely reliant on powerful item purchases to become true damage threats. Marksmen are such an already distinct set of champions that they are not currently divided into subclasses. Even though there are some potential ways to split the Marksmen (ex: mobile vs. immobile, spell-based vs. basic attack focused), all of the Marksmen ultimately serve a very similar role for their team. In the future, we may explore breaking down the class further.

Seems to categorize all bot lane ranged ADCs, jungle ranged ADCs, and Kai’sa very well.

Pika FoxNov 12, 20181 votes

Leonas abilities are impossible to dodge if she aims it well unless you predict she is going to do so and adjust before she even uses it. Same as most other fast or large skillshots.

Sions abilities arent designed to stick the best outcome without the enemy actively misplaying, or you getting support from your team. Same as aatrox's abilities. Aatrox has more control and utility than sion, hes not a tank.

Cassiopia is a marksman. You heard it here first. (Again, marksman is a terrible role name)

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