The counter to True damage is building HP

Ahristocats·Dec 29, 2016·87 votes·5,825 views

but what happens when a champion has in his kit true damage AND %hp damage?

this happens

191 Comments

Zen InethDec 29, 2016102 votes

Vayne Why, hello there

AhristocatsDec 29, 201678 votes

gosh, silver bolts doesn't have counterplay counterplay has silver bolts

doublelift fgDec 29, 201627 votes

Fiora

EnloctDec 29, 201612 votes

Garen Technically...

Mistress MadokaDec 29, 201610 votes

His is more situational at least, and technically it's %Missing HP True damage

But still I do see what you're getting at, but I think it's More acceptable than Camille or Vayne's cases

EnloctDec 29, 201610 votes

He gets % true damage aside from the execution. Every auto and E tick gets 1% max true damage. But yeah, I said "technically" because its pretty tolerable.

IA9hRfpP5qDec 29, 201639 votes

Vayne this someone say true dmg Vayne lemme get some attack speed. Vayne

BeatzBoyFTWDec 29, 201638 votes

Thought this is a Vayne thread before I clicked it lol

AcidTheWarlockDec 29, 201634 votes

Fiora

just gonna leave this one here

Sahn UzalDec 29, 201622 votes

item 3036

Same concept :P

PennsDec 29, 20163 votes

Why exactly same concept?

Sahn UzalDec 29, 201625 votes

It punishes you for building health, and it punishes you for building armor.

PennsDec 29, 20165 votes

It doesnt punish you for building armor tho, it penetrates (not even half of) it. It kind of punishes you for building health, but Ive never seen that really be a problem. Most adcs do no damage to tanks before 4-5 items anyway lol.

Sahn UzalDec 29, 201622 votes

That's the damn issue. Tanks are really welrounded midgame but just fall off like a brick and get melted once someone buys LDR. And trust me, if I as a tank could build an item that negated half your Crit Damage, or Half your AD, I'd definetly get it. Sadly, we get Randuins with it's 10% crit reduction, you get LDR.

I've often gotten LDR second on GP because it is just that fucking stupid of an item.

And that is why I'm hoping for a Vanguard rework before a Diver rework, Riot said they'd overhaul defensive itemisation in a Vanguard rework. Which should've happened long ago.

PennsDec 29, 20162 votes

Is that why it got buffed twice and never touched again after it got changed? Must be broken Kappa

Sahn UzalDec 29, 201616 votes

Riot is allowing things to be strong for long periods of time? NO WAY?!

PennsDec 29, 20163 votes

And why is it strong? Its designed to kill tanks, does almost nothing against carries, doesnt even do a lot against people with only 1 armor item,... I feel like people want adcs to be like towers, 1- max 2 armor items and they do 0 damage?

Sahn UzalDec 29, 201614 votes

Imagine a world without Lord Domniks.

If you complain Tanks aren't taking damage from your AA's, and I respond with ''Why is that a problem? Armor is designed to counter physical damage''.

Would you say I'm wrong? Why would my statement be wrong while yours would be right? What's the difference?

PennsDec 29, 20162 votes

Id say youre wrong because adcs are supposed and designed to melt tanks late game. If there was no way to counter armor, what would adcs do? ...Probably what theyre already doing, killing squishies with a few crits while doing nothing against tank(y) overlords lul

Sahn UzalDec 29, 201612 votes

Wait a second, please explain to me, what exactly is the goal of our AD Carry Overlords?

Is it killing squishies with 2-3 crits? Or is it killing Towers/Objectives? Or is it melting tanks?

Oh...

PennsDec 29, 20164 votes

Its supposed to be the last 2 but for some reason they do the first 2 while tanks are unkillable to them for most of the game unless youre Vayne.

Sahn UzalDec 29, 201613 votes

You know, I'd be completely fine with ADC's doing the last 2 if they didn't do the first one aswell.

Sahn UzalDec 29, 20169 votes

Once they get the item they are melting tanks, but don't lose the ability to melt squishies.

RexSaurDec 29, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LstzU19u,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-29T15:18:53.165+0000)

That's the damn issue. Tanks are really welrounded midgame but just fall off like a brick and get melted once someone buys LDR. And trust me, if I as a tank could build an item that negated half your Crit Damage, or Half your AD, I'd definetly get it. Sadly, we get Randuins with it's 10% crit reduction, you get LDR.

I've often gotten LDR second on GP because it is just that fucking stupid of an item.

And that is why I'm hoping for a Vanguard rework before a Diver rework, Riot said they'd overhaul defensive itemisation in a Vanguard rework. Which should've happened long ago.

Right instead tanks should be unkillable at all stages of the game with their cheap items instead of just early and mid game.

LDR exists because armor items are for the most part really op.

Sahn UzalDec 29, 20166 votes

And that is why I'm hoping for a Vanguard rework before a Diver rework, Riot said they'd overhaul defensive itemisation in a Vanguard rework. Which should've happened long ago.

Ariel the CruelDec 29, 20169 votes

And trust me, if I as a tank could build an item that negated half your Crit Damage, or Half your AD, I'd definetly get it.

Ooh, I like this game!

Base line: 100 AD IE crits - 250% AD EDIT: 100% crit chance. 100% Armor pen. 2.0 AS Total damage in 2 seconds: 1000 Goal: 500

item 3047 12% AA damage reduction. 100 -> 88 -> 880

item 3143 15% AS reduction 2.0 -> 1.7 [3.4 AA's in 2 seconds, effectively 3] ; 88 -> 264 -> 660

item 3143 10% crit reduction 660 -> 594

item 3110 15% AS reduction 1.7 -> 1.475 [2.95 AA's in 2 seconds, effectively 2] ; 88 -> 176 -> 440 -> 396

item 3046 12% flat damage reduction. Just for fun. 396 -> 348.48

item 3812 15% damage delay. Just for laughs. 348.48 [52.272/3=17.424] -> 296.208 + 17.424/s

##GGGGGGOOOOOOOAAAAAAALLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!

Using the 3 anti-AA items, we managed to cut the ADC's damage output by more than half. Without a single point of armor.

EDIT: extra math 2 2 second windows (since 2.95 is so close) averages to: (396+660)/2= 528 Considering the ADC is unlikely to ever reach 100% armor pen, this still effectively accomplishes the goal. 50 armor (we'll assume the other 130 is shredded ; 61.5...% pen) = 25% damage reduction. 528 -> 396

Sahn UzalDec 29, 20168 votes

''An Item'' starts making a list of items with smaller numbers

Also, let me know when you find someone who builds Phantomdancer on a tank, that item will likely be purchased by the ADC. Inb4 Dyrus' PD Maokai YT video

Ariel the CruelDec 29, 20164 votes

As stated, PD and DD were added for fun. I don't expect any tank to build them (Except maybe AS Braum).

I'm didn't post that to support or dispute your claim about LDR. My point was only that ADC's damage can be cut in half without using any armor. It's a small detail that often gets overlooked in the ADC damage debate.

RalanrDec 29, 20163 votes

Now I want to build PD Sion.

ADC's damage can be cut in half without using any armor.

Isn't a problem in general? That just makes marksmen unnaturally tanky. Obviously that's not the case right now, but why give marksmen damage reduction items when the people who should get those items are the damn predators?

Why not make PD an assassin item?

ACENOXDec 29, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Most adcs do no damage to tanks before 4-5 items anyway lol.

our definition of "no damage" is sure different as hell then

Armor isn't supposed to be penetrated, tanks aren't supposed to die easily. League has a problem of design because riot wants offense to outscale defense for non-known reasons

In Dota, HON, %armor penetration doesn't exist. Tanks are supposed to be hard to kill while doing no damage and helping with utility/debuffs. Armor counters flat armor pen, and %armor penetration doesn't exist, %hp damage like item 3153 doesn't exist

in league it's different, Tanks have quite a good amount of damage, no debuffs at all (i can only think of malphite attack speed nuke) and dies in 2 seconds in late game because defense is outscaled by offense And let's not talk about vi/hecarim being unkillable in mid game while doing more damage than a tank there is a fundamental problem of design

PennsDec 29, 20162 votes

Then tank players shouldnt complain about LDR allowing at least 1 class that is designed to kill tanks to actually damage them without being ridiculously fed.. Because when the Zac can gank my lane from 2000 units away and instaburst half my HP with nothing but a item 3751 , theres something wrong and tanks have no right to complain lol.

ACENOXDec 29, 20168 votes

i don't remember tank players complaining, i'm not a tank player but i do feel like the design of tank is awful in league and offense outscaling defense is the worst idea ever

PennsDec 29, 20161 votes

Why? Defense is way cheaper and better early game, a tank with Thornmail is practically unkillable for an adc mid game,.. if defense outscaled offense, thatd be kinda dumb oo

ACENOXDec 29, 20165 votes

defense is cheaper so riot has an escuse to make offense outscaling defense in dota2/hon 10 armor=1500 gold=50 armor in league, in league 50 armor=700 or 800 gold

{quoted}

. if defense outscaled offense, thatd be kinda dumb oo

You're so not smart, NONE of them should outscale the other Tanks should tank carries should do damage

but in league tanks aren't tanks in late game, and they are semi-carries in mid game

PennsDec 29, 20162 votes

Then thats not a problem with adcs or LDR tho, thats a problem with tanks being a damage threat for whatever reason.

ACENOXDec 29, 20167 votes

lmfao

LDR is the reason with last whisper, blade of the ruined king, mortal reminder or anything negating tankiness that tanks aren't being actual tanks in late game

and LDR isn't the only reason, the other reason is riot's design making tanks doing more damage than they should do in mid game like zac/sejuani/maokai/rammus

and that leads to our current problem where bruisers like vi/hecarim are simply better from an objective point,since in late game they tank as much as tanks, and do more damage than them while still bringing a good amount of utility (vi armor debuff+ulti+Q, hecarim E/R)

If they actually made defense expensive and uncounterable, then bruisers would think twice before buying item 3078 or item 3071 because they are going to be squishy for a long time But that would requiere a total rework of a lot of things, and redesigning 90% of our tank roaster

PennsDec 29, 20161 votes

Like I said, tanks do too much damage so they need to actually be killable when 5 people focus them. How is that a problem with armor pen?

Sahn UzalDec 29, 20165 votes

Oh that's an interesting one.

Tanks dealing damage is an issue, right? But ADC's having massive amounts of effective health because of Lifesteal is fine?

Kaisa is HotDec 29, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LstzU19u,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-12-29T14:45:50.509+0000)

Same concept :P

No it isn't because the % is Physical dmg so it's reduced by armor.

Sahn UzalDec 29, 201610 votes

UNIQUE – GIANT SLAYER: Grants up to +15% bonus physical damage against enemy champions with greater maximum health than you (+1.5% damage per 50 health difference, maxing at 500 health difference).

Punishes you for building health.

UNIQUE – LAST WHISPER: +45% Bonus Armor Penetration.

Punishes you for building armor.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 29, 201621 votes

Vel'Koz is like the one champion that has true damage that is balanced with it. Maybe Cho too. % max hp true damage is stupid as hell.

General Esdeath Dec 29, 20162 votes

Not sure about Vel since a Q E W (both casts hit) R can proc the passive 3 times (9 total hits)

THE RlVER KlNGDec 29, 20161 votes

That will proc the passive twice. 1(Q) + 1(E) + 2(W) + 3(R) = 7. That will proc it twice and have 1 stack.

Ariel the CruelDec 29, 20163 votes

W hits twice and holds two charges. So a perfect rotation would be: 1(Q)+1(E)+4(W)+3(R) = 9.

AlienPrimateDec 29, 20162 votes

Except for that one game when I was galio with 350 Mr and Vel'Koz killed me just by pressing r. I looked at death recap and his ult did 1400 true damage.

Legacy HydralphaDec 29, 201616 votes

Vel'Koz's ult only does full true damage when the enemy is marked. He can apply stacks mid-ult, but not fast enough to have 1400 damage be true damage.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRF3NSLaxdWdmIg04TRQTn8PE-ujTDafkDUM0cNKXCt7y0LwntcbA

AlienPrimateDec 29, 20167 votes

I guess he could have had stacks before and I didn't even notice he hit me because my 350 Mr and heal from w.

ZT XperimentorDec 29, 20169 votes

There was a reason riot had left vayne in the gutter for years, too bad they forgot why.

iTaLenTZDec 29, 20168 votes

Wrong. The counter to true damage is damage. Kill before getting killed.

LankPantsDec 29, 20166 votes

That's why Irelia's such a great tank killer right?

Most true damage is straight up countered by HP. The small amounts of true damage most true damage champs have just can't shred through large HP pools.