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Rubick's feedback from the entire 7.9 patch

Ahristocats··12 votes·1,577 views

https://i.gyazo.com/28a5a01c7c334a8b0f76e2f573587114.png

so 3 months ago i made this thread where i stated that i gave up on rankeds and only played for the lulz in normals while waiting this big patch that would solve all the problems i listed back then How did it go? did the problems get solved(short teamfight durations, games ending too fast mostly)? i'm not going to give an answer right now as i want to avoid people not reading everything like last time with the previous thread

Let's start with the least important changes before getting into the tank update

Renekton what happened to him? i don't get what happened because you were supposed to remove his animation cancellings (which i don't agree with since it's a feature since 2011 like riven) but you only removed his AA during Q (like riven Q) **and made everything worse ** Renekton is able to tiamat during E now (like old rengar) ending up in a +100% ad burst, he's still able to cancel W with tiamant but now also with Q resulting in a W+Q almost instantly He's still able to cancel E with an other E I guess it wasn't intended? since the opposite should have happened so you need to fixe that however please if you remove them consider looking on renekton in the diver update

item 3096 was destroyed just so you know meddler. doesn't give sustain anymore, requieres you to play agressively which is straight up impossible on every coin user.Janna win rate dropped hard with coin, that https://i.gyazo.com/217097847a02652b42e9295963672017.png https://i.gyazo.com/357a43d8f977ce796a78ea4c1a657ec7.png High elo janna otps are not building it anymore, she's still fine spellthief edge depending on match ups, but i'm just telling you that you straight up destroyed an item Not getting sustain in botlane is a just asking to lose the lane especially if you make it so you can't play safe due to coin's new passive. i get it perfectly that you wanted an interaction believe me, but if you don't give us the tools to do it then it's just no bueno friendo

Now the tank update:

Maokai let's start with this dude because in my experience this was the worst rework ever. Maokai is supposed to be a warden as he was able to peel with his ult damage reduction and CCS but you transformed him into an aberation. Literally the only successful maokai i saw were ap maokai supports, peeling sometimes with Q+W (R snares sucks in melee range) and controlling zones with E bushes. The only good thing about him is his ult to gank (botlane won't be able to outrun it in early game and it has the size of the lane) and his E to control areas due to the insane damage from bushes New maokai is like a control mage peeling champion that sucks at tanking because he lost 20% damage reduction without any compensation He has 51% win rate as a support and 46/47% win rate as a jungle/top laner according to LolAlyctic Please revert this rework we didn't want to do this, thus were not the goals, it doesn't even offer a niche to him like you promised to us

Zac Then we have zac, i honestly had one issue with him and it was the ability to E+W+Q+R and disrupt an entire team while removing half of their hp (or more). But instead of giving his Q+W a delay (with a range increase on Q) you turned his Q in one of the clunkiest spell in the world that doesn't even feel good to use like you promised us. Zac players do you like his Q? cuz what i see is zac extending his arm a bit (while reducing it size for reasons?) and then slowly grabing his targets disrupting them for 0.5 sec His R honestly is a great job, it makes zac a great pick against some champions and WITH some champions. the fact that you can reposition an enemies means you will pick zac against Kindred and force the entire team out of kindred ult (same logic with kindred as an ally) i give a 10/10 to this idea Honestly zac Q should be reverted but that's only my opinion

Sejuani and finally we have the most controversial rework of this update. i kept watching the board talking about sejuani rework and hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... nah i can't hate that rework sorry guys Sejuani rework is the only rework that perfectly fit with the goal of the tank update: -unreliable damage -real tankiness -niche with unique utility hear me out, i don't care about wether she's broken atm or not (i think she's fine since her 2 hotfixes as she didn't give me any troubles) Sejuani damage went from super reliable to decent. Her attack damage and attack speed (both base and per level) were nuked, her Q damage was reduced, her W damage was reduced and all of that went into her passive damage that requieres her to have E first (or ult) In exchange, she gained a unique way to give utility AND tankiness. She received Visage passive from dota2 (armor+mr for few seconds after getting damaged) and now she's the tank that counters burst which is important in this meta. Her E enables melee champions and give her team a reason to pick a melee top laner instead of ranged top laner All of this made her going from a champion that only existed for ultying and running around dealing %hp damage to a champion that counters disengaging by slows+burst+enable melees

My problem is why only those 3 were reworked? Nautilus Shen Rammus Malphite Amumu all suffer from the problems that should have been fixed with zac and maokai. They all have too much reliable damage, no niche and generalist especially nautilus unlike Gragas Sion . Why pick shen? global teleportation to help isn't a niche, you don't pick shen against a special teamcomp. His W is nice but the long cd + low duration makes nobody giving a fuck about it while shen can be a great tank against things like master yi

Final things and we can move to the answer of the thread: items

Overall items brought 2 things right now: -gave item diversity to tanks -gave viable defensive options to the back line, item 3812 item 3102

what it didn't do: made tanks not feast or famin

main problem of this tank update is that it failed to make tanks tanks. Pure tank champions still die in 3 or 4 seconds (except sejuani) item 3071 item 3033 item 3036 still do too much i don't understand why black cleaver just got -6% armor shred Black cleaver is still bought on 99% of ad champions, item 3153 didn't get a single meaningfull nerf (did you think that +100 gold would fixe early game power+draintanking+. This item is pure cancer right now, turning an adc into a 6 sloted jinx. i don't get why you made blade of the ruined king a good item on lane bullies like Draven Lucian as the +45 ad now will increase there spell damage by too much. Again you make blade of the ruined king a viable item against squishies and again it becomes broken not only this but it shreds tanks like hell because you reverted the %hp damage nerf that you did when the item was busted

https://i.gyazo.com/3c5e463f9306fb503456751535f298a4.png

remember this? because it's even more true now, since renekton buys it cuz of +45 ad (used to be +20)

We needed longer teamfights the good thing is that we have items like item 3102 that makes us able to survive we have item 3812 damage delaying, we have item 3065 to sustain more. you buffed the AD given by hydra and death dance which means even more sustain

So who won during this tank rework? everyone but tanks Juggernauts and divers can make use of death dance and spirit visage to last longer in fights ADCS can draintank and use deathdance Mages have too much range and a spellshield now

tanks have.... nothing? because penetration is still insane and blade of the ruined king is still a thing what's more is that item 3026 IS NO LONGER A TANK ITEM FFS you dropped the cost efficiency to 83% from 100% while giving it AD, and now because of your retarded buff to revive hp (increased to 50%) it became broken on adcs+other non-tank champions like yasuo and fiora tanks can't get +60 armor+45 mr and a revive anymore and melee champions didn't get bonus mr/lvl

so did we success at making teamfights longer? overall yes because of all of this teamfights last in average 8 seconds more i would say thanks to the insane buff to sustain, the apparition of defensive items like banshee and death dance (that was never built in high elo) and the mr/lvl to ranged champions

did we fixe tanks? absolutly not they're still feast or famin, depending on if they get tankiness faster than enemy penetration but they also deal less damage because item 3068 might as well be deleted now and item 3742 nerf every tank without exceptions (minus sejuani) had their win rate/pick rate dropping because nothing is good now to them

And thank you for item 1054 item 3053 buff, bot lane Darius went really better than i expected

that's all i wanted to say: overall the game is better now but you didn't fixe everything please meddler do something because tanks are going to be less picked now

57 Comments

Big Lincoln4 votes

now she's the tank that counters burst

https://i.gyazo.com/e639afc8318066252167337ef23d34c5.png

LankPants3 votes

Yes, because that's not what tanks already do passively anyway.

Ahristocats2 votes

i realised that i worded it poorly

it would be more like the tank vulnerable more to DPS than the others as they have better defensive steroids against them

just like how visage works in dota2

Big Lincoln4 votes

wow, you went from +6 to -1 in the op, wonder what happened. i didnt downvote tho

regardless, i hate the rework. too much of a change from the original kit's specialty and niche, and on principle i don't consider any rework that completely alters what the champ is meant for to be good

Ahristocats2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LoJ8E9og,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2017-05-07T15:10:10.571+0000)

i don't consider any rework that completely alters what the champ is meant for to be good

fair enough IMO when i judge a rework i look at the goals and see if the rework fits with the goals

which is why i hate the maokai rework, he's not supposed to be an AP support

LankPants3 votes

IMO when i judge a rework i look at the goals and see if the rework fits with the goals

Was Sejuani meant to be a top laner, because that's happening

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Sejuani/

Rising pickrate top, plummeting jungle.

She has some crazy waveclear and shoving, I know anecdotal evidence is pretty garbage but I was able to keep a Rumble pinned under his tower today, that just doesn't happen. You can't itemise against her damage either since it's amazingly mixed. If she reaches 6 and gets a mana item it's game, you're not ever leaving your tower while she pins you to it and is hard as hell to gank with her passive and Q.

Big Lincoln1 votes

how do you build her top

i vs'd an akali the first time I did it and couldn't deal with her cancer sustain/low cooldown burst rotations. just built tank items to try and fight her, might try more fighter-y builds like titanic since that's far better than fulltank from how i played her in the jungle

LankPants1 votes

You kinda have to play passive until you can get a mana item, W costs too much to spam early and you really need that D-shield start. Just let yourself be shoved and focus on getting what you can and not falling too far behind, try to farm to 1050 or preferably a little more for pots and back and get a Sheen.

From here you should be lv 5+ and have a good mana pool, you can now push like a madman. Try to hit enemies with W when you can, if they have 2 stacks on them you should win any trades they try to engage on you. Mostly though just spam clear creepwaves with W while positioning aggressively, it's an insane waveclear tool.

I like to rush into Titanic after Sheen since it's a great trading tool and lets me shove even faster. Basically I just want to play at the enemies tower as much as I can harassing them with W when possible. Since you're always shoving you can also go B at almost any time and restore your mana, so you can afford to spam yourself down to 25%.

If an enemy tries to fight you, you basically win by default. Just make sure you hit W then AA-Tiamat/Hydra-AA and stun them up, then you can either disengage with Q or use R and all in.

Basically you're playing Rumble, you're not fighting them, you're fighting their creeps.

As for a build I tend towards item 3057 > item 3748 > item 3078 > item 3053 / item 3742 / item 3001 or item 3194 . item 3046 is also an interesting option sometimes, I was fucking around with it early on, it didn't feel bad but it is quite situational.

Big Lincoln1 votes

what about runes, i've been running fulltank stuff, lack of pen/AD etc might be why i had trouble early

LankPants1 votes

I've been running AD Reds, HP/Lv Yellows, a mix of CDR/Lv and MR/Lv (6/3) Blues and Armour Quints. So I'm basically running fairly standard tank stuff I'd say. IMO AD Reds are needed, your base AD is so garbage that trying to CS without them is impossible.

You do have trouble early though, she's not an early dominant champ. She needs a few levels for her W CD to come down and its damage to go up before she can really start working.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

Was Sejuani meant to be a top laner, because that's happening

toplane still fits with sejuani's role unlike support for maokai Why? because maokai being only good at controlling areas is not intended

{quoted}

She has some crazy waveclear and shoving, I know anecdotal evidence is pretty garbage but I was able to keep a Rumble pinned under his tower today, that just doesn't happen. You can't itemise against her damage either since it's amazingly mixed. If she reaches 6 and gets a mana item it's game, you're not ever leaving your tower while she pins you to it and is hard as hell to gank with her passive and Q.

that seems like pre-nerf nautilus to me, but i'm pretty sure you can itemize against her since stoneplate gives both armor and mr and you can still dodge her W

LankPants3 votes

because maokai being only good at controlling areas is not intended

That was the stated goal of the Maokai rework, make him an area control champ with his Saplings and R. By your logic it seems good to me.

that seems like pre-nerf nautilus to me,

Pre-nerf Naut had way worse waveclear than Sej does now. He actually needed to walk into the wave too. Sej just spams W from a range and tries to bonk you whilst doing so.

but i'm pretty sure you can itemize against her since stoneplate gives both armor and mr

Stoneplate is conceding lane, not itemising against her. Once you get stoneplate you're never going to trade with her again, you're going to slowly lose tower HP to her as she shoves you in over and over again. Sure you may not die, but she's still going to soft snowball and generate a ton of pressure off of it.

and you can still dodge her W

Just pinkward the spear.

Even if you dodge the W it doesn't matter anyway, your creeps can't and she'll just have it up again in a few seconds.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

That was the stated goal of the Maokai rework, make him an area control champ with his Saplings and R. By your logic it seems good to me.

No it wasn't, sapling according to riot should have got a "clever way to use", not be all of maokai kit while making the champion only good at that

{quoted}

Pre-nerf Naut had way worse waveclear than Sej does now. He actually needed to walk into the wave too. Sej just spams W from a range and tries to bonk you whilst doing so.

he actually didn't, one E+bami cinder and you minions were gone while also poking you like sejuani while doing it and dodging nautilus E good luck with that

{quoted}

Stoneplate is conceding lane, not itemising against her. Once you get stoneplate you're never going to trade with her again, you're going to slowly lose tower HP to her as she shoves you in over and over again. Sure you may not die, but she's still going to soft snowball and generate a ton of pressure off of it.

you asked me a way to reduce her damage, not a way to not lose your tower

as i said it's pre-nerf nautilus, and they will fixe that by reducing her mana regen/increasing her mana cost

{quoted}

Just pinkward the spear.

you literally compared pre-rework Q of nidalee that had an insane projectile speed+hitbox to new sejuani W

LankPants2 votes

No it wasn't, sapling according to riot should have got a "clever way to use", not be all of maokai kit while making the champion only good at that

Why is using it to support not clever? Is the answer "I don't like it" by any chance? If it is then you need a better argument.

Maokai's doing exactly what you'd expect, he's controlling zones, he's utilising his CC and he's flanking with his ult. He's living up to his goals. You have two choices here, the goals were bad or the rework was good, I'd say the former.

he actually didn't, one E+bami cinder and you minions were gone while also poking you like sejuani while doing it and dodging nautilus E good luck with that

Sej doesn't need the Bami and she doesn't even need to walk into melee. She just W's the wave and it loses damn near all its HP. She also has far better followup on this than Naut ever did. Naut clears the wave, Qs in, then does a lot of not very much. Sej can hit you with W, Q in then short trade with her E burst or even all in with her R, far higher damage than what Naut could do even at his prime. She also builds far more aggressively with items like Tri and Titanic too.

as i said it's pre-nerf nautilus, and they will fixe that by reducing her mana regen/increasing her mana cost

It's already insanely high. It doesn't matter. She's quick enough at shoving you under tower that she can already get preferential backs whenever she wants and unlike Naut she doesn't have 325 MS so she can actually get back before you can punish her. They couldn't increase it more without gimping her jungle clear, it's already 80 mana that you need to throw out 2 times per camp, 180 mana (+E) is an insane cost for a jungler to clear one camp already.

you literally compared pre-rework Q of nidalee that had an insane projectile speed+hitbox to new sejuani W

Sej's W is easier to hit by a lot. Next question?

Big Lincoln4 votes

IMO when i judge a rework i look at the goals and see if the rework fits with the goals

i think so far all the reworks considered the most successful by the most people are the ones that take what people like about the existing champ and emphasize that while trying to make it better to play against. Darius Talon for example. some still have their issues but overall Darius and Talon are at least tolerable when they're in meta and can be meta without being overbearing

IMO judging the reworks by their goals isn't a bad idea because they can at least succeed in that department Vladimir , but sometimes the goals are flawed to begin with, like Malzahar. they put a very strong emphasis on spawning mass amounts of weak minions on a kit that was built around them being a compliment to strong basic abilities but not being a large part of his power budget. and now he's in balance hell.

of course, preserving a kit isn't always good either, because Riot tried to 'fix' Shaco Swain when these champs arguably DID need big changes. shaco became a lot easier to play because his passive was turned into a one-time burst rather than encouraging multiple backstabs between his autos and abilities like it used to, now he's been nerfed so hard the only way he can function is by building like a bruiser. And this is confusing because front-loading Shaco's passive like that was completely contrary to the goals of the assassin rework -- make their burst take longer. and Swain is swain

overall im really frustrated that every time it's time for a class update a champ I like is being changed radically. either they get a rework that fundamentally alters the champ entirely Sejuani Malzahar or none of their actual problems get solved and new ones crop up as a result of poor foresight on Riot's part Shaco Garen. at this rate i'd rather see class updates stop because we end up with a minority of the reworks being successful

Ahristocats1 votes

The problem with malzahar is that they acheived the goals in a bad way

they promised counterplay but the counterplay that they added (destroy minions as they're all of malz power) made him completly binary "do i have minions or not"

so you can't really compare malzahar rework to sejuani rework. Sejuani still deals a lot of damage with W not only passive (which is why it got nerfed) and you can dodge it, i call that a successful way to not make a champion binary

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Overall a good rundown. I hated the coin changes as a Soraka player.

MysterQ1 votes

I just dislike the quest reward. It is too "fleeting/temporary." Use it and gone.

Ahristocats1 votes

if mira approved my feedback i can now rest in valhala

in all serious the game became better but tanks are worse it's only a matter of time until other non-tank players realise it. They lost a lot of damage for nothing in return since penetration is still too much and they have less hp, the worst part of this is that stoneplate isn't good unless you can make use of the bonus health as after 4 seconds your max hp returns to what it was before so it's like you didn't get hp at all, it's only good if you use it like darius Q (to heal more as it scales with max hp) i forgot to mention this in the op.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

This. Soraka was hurt so much by this...

I feel like I need to grab a refillable and load up on biscuits to live through laning sometimes.

LankPants2 votes

I still can't stand the Sejuani rework.

The balance between her abilities is just so far off and there's so many poor design decisions which would have been very easy to fix up pre release but most likely won't be now.

Pretty much everything I thought would happen with her rework has happened, she has far too much power in her E and passive, far too little in her ult and W. Her ultimate doesn't even feel like an ult, it's use cases are either a glorified cocoon or a follow up to the rest of her damage only thrown out to increase her burst and honestly something an observer could entirely miss. Her W feels like it should be the majority of her damage, but quite often it falls short of her passive in terms of damage. W's also randomly physical damage so you lose out on synergy with Liandry's and Abyssal and I'm yet to hear a gameplay based objection to this that actually makes sense.

Her E and Passive are just way too powerful as well. I've got 40% nukes off without even entering a fight in melee before, just pop the E damage with R then W. This doesn't feel like a play a tank should have access to at all, it's basically a mage level nuke at mage ranges. Past that having all the damage on passive really just feels bad anyway, both to play against and with.

I also despise having allies mark enemies, it just feels like Sejuani's had her agency over teamfights completely striped away from her and instead slapped onto her melee allies. It also sucks when I want to play my main but she's a suboptimal pick because my team's ranged heavy. This is before mentioning the pain a Sej/Ren or Sej/Irelia combo can bring. I said before the rework that this mechanic should go and die in a fire and I stand by that, it's a garbage mechanic that should never have been implemented.

I also hate that the rework seems to shove her towards top rather than jungle. It just seems like when Sej is balanced she'll only really be playable top.

Saevum3 votes

She's not as good as she used to be in my opinion, I played her old kit, it was a really good kit and it wasn't toxic. She was the malphite of the jungle: Strong engage ult.

But then again, im not a Sej main.

I dislike her new E and R above all. I just lost 6300 ip there.

Ahristocats2 votes

{quoted}

The balance between her abilities is just so far off and there's so many poor design decisions which would have been very easy to fix up pre release but most likely won't be now.

alright let's see then

{quoted}

she has far too much power in her E and passive,

Except her Q+W+R are still relevant? Q is a mobility tool+still knock up W deals less damage but slows to allow her to stack her E R is now less CC as i remember how hard it was to balance her ult, to an AOE nuke but unreliable

you expected Q to deal a burst damage like before? because that's not what tanks should do and it was clear during the reworks that we would get ride of reliable damage

transfering damage from Q+W+E to passive is a great idea to me as sejuani would still be relevant damage wise but not as good as real damage charcters

{quoted}

Her W feels like it should be the majority of her damage

nowhere this rule is written, just like nowhere it is written that sona should not get skillshots Her W right now has its own use and still deals a total of 50 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 210 (+ 6% maximum health) 」unreliable damage unlike before where she would run around applying frost and dealing something like 400+12% of her max hp as magic damage which means even more damage since we have less MR than armor in this game

{quoted}

but quite often it falls short of her passive in terms of damage. W's also randomly physical damage so you lose out on synergy with Liandry's and Abyssal and I'm yet to hear a gameplay based objection to this that actually makes sense.

Because we don't want you to buy liandry and abyssal. It's not your job to deal damage it's not your job to shred people while disrupting and tanking.

I understand that you lost something that you liked but gameplay wise it makes sense in the eyes of someone that doesn't play sejuani

{quoted}

Her E and Passive are just way too powerful as well. I've got 40% nukes off without even entering a fight in melee before, just pop the E damage with R then W.

if it's a squishy then you might be right, but they should have fucked up hard if they went in that range of sejuani If it's a melee unless they're glass canon they won't lose 40% of their max hp damage due to magic resistance but something like 20% or 25% as sejuani doesn't buy penetration and that's in late game where her passive gets max damage

this allows her damage to be consistent against any targets squishy or not, and avoid balance problem about relevant damage or not

{quoted}

This doesn't feel like a play a tank should have access to at all

because prerework sejuani felt like a tank? Everytime i see sejuani before her gutting in lcs, pressing Q+W+E on the backline in midgame to remove 70% of someone's hp while running around as they were slowed by permafrost. Pressing ult in fight + W running around to deal damage

i'm literally asking you to stop, because that would be like me saying that Darius rework is a massive failure because "wtf riot, i can't oneshot anymore with E+AA+W+Q+R in 1 sec with all those delays and damage transfered from W+Q+R into noxian might bonus ad"

{quoted}

it's basically a mage level nuke at mage ranges.

Nop

{quoted}

I also despise having allies mark enemies, it just feels like Sejuani's had her agency over teamfights completely striped away from her and instead slapped onto her melee allies. It also sucks when I want to play my main but she's a suboptimal pick because my team's ranged heavy. This is before mentioning the pain a Sej/Ren or Sej/Irelia combo can bring. I said before the rework that this mechanic should go and die in a fire and I stand by that, it's a garbage mechanic that should never have been implemented.

that's the only point i'm giving to you this is true that sejuani lost invidual power as some of her budget power went into allies. Just like mordekaiser and mordekaiser requieres a support that knows mordekaiser to be good But WAKE UP, sejuani's E is way easier to understand than mordekaiser's W, all they have to know is that their job is to attack

i didn't meet any sejuani that had problems to make use of her E, both alone and with allies

also last point:

{quoted} It also sucks when I want to play my main but she's a suboptimal pick because my team's ranged heavy.

Good, your main should not be LeeSin League doesn't need more generalists anymore, i hope that lee sin gets reworked to get a niche because generalists are causing cancer in league

LankPants2 votes

I love having someone with literally 0 games on my main spout out bullshit they spent 15 whole seconds thinking about at me.

W deals less damage but slows to allow her to stack her E

That's not even W's power, that's E's power and quite often it ends up not mattering anyway. You lead a fight with your R like Riot seems to have intended? Congrats, W is now a worthless spell.

R is now less CC as i remember how hard it was to balance her ult, to an AOE nuke but unreliable

It's a glorified Cocoon. I've never even seen the AOE hit anyone in my 10-15 games on post rework Sej. It's a joke of an ultimate. It's best use case is just to hit your passive a second time.

nowhere this rule is written, just like nowhere it is written that sona should not get skillshots Her W right now has its own use and still deals a total of 50 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 210 (+ 6% maximum health) 」unreliable damage unlike before where she would run around applying frost and dealing something like 12% of her max hp as magic damage which means even more damage since we have less MR than armor in this game

W feels like it should be the majority of her damage both because it's the hardest to apply (maybe tied with Q) and because it has the fewest additional effects on her kit. E and passive are actually crazy easy to apply, just have your Irelia (or insert bruiser here) do it for you.

You're also right, it's unreliable damage, wouldn't that make it fair for it to be higher than her old W? I mean it doesn't have to be higher per say, just around 70% of the damage IN MAGIC DAMAGE would be fine since it is on a shorter CD and it has the slow as well. I'd be completely cool to lose some passive power, or even all of it for this. The shatter feels terrible to play with, maybe if you played some games as Sej you'd understand this. W feels like a really solid skill, it's the E and passive damage that feel like they're holding the kit back.

Also Sona should get skillshots, not because she actually needs skillshots but because it would stop bronzies complaining about her not having any. You'd be able to actually give her some power if you did this IMO, this is 100% tangential though.

Because we don't want you to buy liandry and abyssal. It's not your job to deal damage it's not your job to shred people while disrupting and tanking.

Have you even checked what post rework Abyssal does? It's still the best MR item on Sejuani about 60% of the time anyway, basically you buy it unless Helm is better.

And I'm sorry, but it is Sejuani's job to be doing damage. Damage is a necessary part of her kit. If she wasn't doing damage she'd just be a very bad Nautilus, like utterly abysmal.

All W being physical does is reduce jungle Sejuani's itemisation "choices" to be a pitiful and linear build with very few actual choices since she lacks her old options for offence and shove Sejuani in the direction of being a top laner since it makes her damage absurdly hard to defend against.

if it's a squishy then you might be right, but they should have fucked up hard if they went in that range of sejuani

Yes, because let's act like Sej doesn't have her cancer ally interaction. You can stay away from Sej if you want, good luck avoiding Camille, Irelia or Renekton in the same way. It's not even like it's that hard for Sej to stun an enemy past their frontline anyway if you know what you're doing, Q/Flash is still a thing.

because prerework sejuani felt like a tank? Everytime i see sejuani before her gutting in lcs, pressing Q+W+E on the backline in midgame to remove 70% of someone's hp while running around as they were slowed by permafrost. Pressing ult in fight + W running around to deal damage

Oh, so that's what this is about. You're salty about pre rework Sej and never got over that single patch where she was overpowered. I'll see how you feel about this complaint when Bruiser build Sejuani top lane catches on, it's way better than tank Sej jungle currently anyway.

i'm literally asking you to stop, because new sejuani feels more like a tank than before and i say that as someone who has the experience of dota2 as they have REAL tanks with unreliable damage unique utility and tankiness

I don't give a fuck about DotA2 quite frankly. It's a less fun game than LoL, hence why it has a playerbase that's a fraction of LoL's. The last thing Riot should do is base their game off of another, less successful game in its own genre, and before you say it's based off DotA, yes it is, so is DotA2.

I've also had far more success with Sej the less I play her like a tank. If I go and buy a Triforce and a Titanic Hydra and just split top 24/7 looking for duels it feels far more impactful than actually trying to teamfight assuming your team hasn't gimped themselves by picking 3 other melees. She's a surprisingly strong bruiser and a surprisingly strong duellist post her rework, she's certainly better at both of these things than teamfighting with her gimped ult.

this is true that sejuani lost invidual power as some of her budget power went into allies. Just like mordekaiser and mordekaiser requieres a support that knows mordekaiser to be good

They removed Mord's reliance on his teammate and let him drop it on a creep when they realised it felt like shit. Hopefully they realise the same thing about Sej soon too.

i didn't meat any sejuani that had problems to make use of her E, both alone and with allies

Everyone I've talked to agrees on the problem with this. VS one champ she's fine, VS a team she's garbage. You can't solo stack VS a team at all, which seems like an odd choice for a champ who's always been an AOE tank.

League doesn't need more generalists anymore, i hope that lee sin gets reworked to get a niche because generalists are causing cancer in league

I don't want Sej to be a perfect champ in every scenario, hell I want Lee to stop being that. What I want her to be is not a terrible champ arbitrarily because my team picked the wrong champs. No other champ has this, not even supports. Sure, picking Talon into Syndra may not be a good idea, or picking Vayne with a group of assassins may not work out, but this is far different to what Sej has. Sej loses her individual power when she has the wrong teammates, she doesn't function as she should at this point.

Ahristocats2 votes

{quoted}

I love having someone with literally 0 games on my main spout out bullshit they spent 15 whole seconds thinking about at me.

nice ad hominem, i guess we can't elo shame someone but we can "main shame" someone as they didn't play your main but still can't talk about it despite all the games they had where they plade WITH and AGAINST a sejuani

i don't have too much time unfortunatly as i have my final exams approaching so i can't have fun looking at your reply

i will only let the time decides about whoever was right about this just like i remember darius mains telling me that darius rework sucked on realise because of damage delayed and then after the hotfix buffs he became a monster and now is one of the healthiest champion ever

LankPants2 votes

nice ad hominem, i guess we can't elo shame someone but we can "main shame" someone as they didn't play your main but still can't talk about it despite all the games they had where they plade WITH and AGAINST a sejuani

You can elo shame all you like, I give 0 fucks.

What I'm saying is that you have 0 games on Sejuani, everything you know is at best second hand. How are you meant to understand the feel of the champion? How would you understand why it feels bad for her E/Passive to be so much of her damage and her W to be so little. How would you understand how bad it feels to have so much of her power wrapped up in your allies?

If you want to argue with me on this, try her first. You don't have to spam her for days on end, just play a few games and you'll almost certainly understand where I'm coming from.

Also I don't think it's unreasonable to weight my opinion above yours here, I have literally thousands of games on Sejuani and already 10's on post rework Sej. I think the unreasonable thing here would be to say our opinions are equal. I wouldn't claim to know jack shit about your main unless I actually played them.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

You can elo shame all you like, I give 0 fucks.

i don't

{quoted}

What I'm saying is that you have 0 games on Sejuani, everything you know is at best second hand. How are you meant to understand the feel of the champion?

i give 0 fuck about a feel about a champion, i'm here to post a feedback about balance and new sejuani offers more way to balance the game niche wise and power wise

{quoted}

If you want to argue with me on this, try her first.

i think you mean play against her first because i did and a lot of time and all of those times i didn't encounter the "burst of mage" you talked about neither the "you can't escape E as a ranged champion because of my allies and myself"

{quoted}

Also I don't think it's unreasonable to weight my opinion above yours here,

shaco mains telling us that shaco was destroyed sona mains telling us that sona was balanced during 58% win rate area

i know mate, i know that mains are more objective than us

LankPants2 votes

i give 0 fuck about a feel about a champion, i'm here to post a feedback about balance and new sejuani offers more way to balance the game niche wise and power wise

Well I don't care about your opinion if all you're going to think about is balance and not feel at all.

Let's design a perfectly balanced champ, at the start of the game you flip a coin, if it's heads you win, tails you lose. Perfectly balanced, garbage feel. This is important.

i think you mean play against her first because i did and a lot of time and all of those times i didn't encounter the "burst of mage" you talked about neither the "you can't escape E as a ranged champion because of my allies and myself"

You can't learn much about music by simply listening to songs, you need to actually pick up an instrument and try it for yourself. Your opinions on Sejuani will be juvenile and uninformed until you actually try her.

shaco mains telling us that shaco was destroyed

Shaco lost a lot of his identity in his rework. I don't blame anyone who doesn't like it, it was far from good.

sona mains telling us that sona was balanced during 58% win rate area

That stems mostly from what people consider balance. Sona was a competitively balanced champion at that time. She wasn't breaking pro play at all. For some that would just mean she's a balanced champion.

Glory ln Death2 votes

To be fair, Maokai did get tankiness compensation for losing his damage reduction ult. His passive got massively buffed - from 5/6/7% max health every 5 spellcasts to 10-130 (+4.5% - 10.5% max health) every 30/25/20 seconds, reduced by 4 seconds for his own casts and enemy spells that hit him. If he gets hit (very likely in teamfights) he has the same "cooldown" of 5 spellcasts lategame as before the update, and heals for significantly more.

chipndip11 votes

But

  1. That means his tankiness is negated by GW...last thing I want as a tank.

  2. He's not "out the gate" tanky more than he's "proxy" tanky early on, and that feels bad as fuck in the jg. I can't seem to make his clears not garbage.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

You say Rubick's Feedback like you know the guy. :P

In all seriousness, nice write-up. I never played these reworked champs so I can't give my thoughts on them. I haven't played with them yet because they are always banned or never picked, and I don't own them myself. But this gives me a pretty good idea about what a high elo player thinks about them.

Also quick question, how much CS should I aim for? I find it difficult to CS because if I ignore my opponent to farm I get harassed, and if I harass or poke my opponent, they usually hit me back, and after the trade is done we look back to the minions and realize we missed a few.

Sahn Uzal2 votes

100 per 10 minutes is a good goal to aim for as far as CS goes.

MysterQ2 votes

is that even a realistic goal for any new player. What the heck does 10 minutes mean.

Sahn Uzal2 votes

He asked for how much CS he should aim for, a good goal to aim for is getting 100 CS per 10 minutes. So 100 at 10, 200 at 20, 300 at 30.

I find myself failing to get 100 at 10 from time to time, but getting 200 at 20 etc is not too hard.

Nobody said it's Easy to have good CS, but it is what you should be aiming for :P

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Personally with Azir I have trouble CSing before I get atk speed and AP.

Then I usually shred waves and catch back up to the recommended CS.

MysterQ2 votes

Game 4 TSM vs GAM. 10:02 (Since you say 10min and not 12min or whatever). Top 83 vs 86 Mid 73 vs 74 Bot 90 vs 78

All you people need to stop telling people to aim for 100/10 min. A goal should be reasonable and realistic. Maybe you meant in good faith aim for 100 in 10 minutes, but honestly it is most often used as an insult to bronze players "your cs is terrible, get at least 100 in 10 minutes or you don't deserve to climb."
I could be wrong. I will watch more games (too bad spectating is gone). Maybe it just sounds nice and even. But that vague comment is a terrible thing to spread around. Yes focusing on CS is good, but not with one line "goal."

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Yeah... No. 100/10 is perfectly realistic, don't compare LCS to Solo Queue, it might aswell be a different game. The guy asked what he should be aiming for, so I told him what he should be aiming for. And it's not even like I'm calling people who don't reach this goal are bad players, Malicious Metal is a good friend of mine, and he's probably a better player than me across the board, but his farm, in most of his games, is nowhere near what he should be aiming for.

MysterQ2 votes

It may be, I wish I could spectate challenger games still.

But if anything, most LCS games play safe and farm more than solo (generally held belief). So if the safe farming teams aren't hitting your "goal" then I'm not sure it is reasonable. Sure they have more coordination, but the first few minutes should still be farm (unless vs GAM lol).

PermabannedGaren2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LoJ8E9og,comment-id=000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-05-07T15:03:01.192+0000)

Yeah... No. 100/10 is perfectly realistic

Yeah if you're playing Gangplank.

For people that play champions that actually have to interact with their laning opponents who don't have incredible farming tools no, it isn't.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Oh I definetly agree that Gangplank has an easier time farming than most champions, that's why I can reach silly shit like 360 at 30 :P If Quas can get his 100 per 10 on Swain, who won't one be able to do it on another champion?

Again, I'm not even saying everyone needs to have 100 per 10, but that's the general goal you want to be aiming for, even if you do not succeed because of the circumstances.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

I'm not a new player btw.

MysterQ1 votes

Doesn't matter new, vet or bronze, silver, gold, plat. I could be wrong I will watch more games. But for him and others to just post one line (essentially git gud) is not good advice.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

LS the pro coach says more than your enemy laner and as much as is reasonable. The 100cs per 10 minutes quota is unrealistic. It was a figure named for ADC mains to aim for in custom games practicing. The goal is more than your enemy unless they are a lane bully and you have to scale, then try to stay no more than 10cs behind them. When you have the upper hand in laning a secondary goal is to deny them farm.

Ahristocats3 votes

IMO 100 cs at 12 min, and 150 cs at 18 min is what i managed to do at best

there is a certain gp otp that can get 300 cs at 30 min

MysterQ1 votes

(As a lowly bronze scrub) As the game goes later too, you may have more opportunities to farm too. I mean if you have waves pushing towards you and your team isn't taking them that can help your cs out.

100 at 12 seems more realistic (why I asked literal 10 or not), still probably hard for many players. But yea the first 1:30 minute of the game you can't get anything.

Eternal Torment1 votes

About the Maokai rework everyone could now make something out of it, i personally think they removed his damage reduction to lower his massive impact in teamfights and now really serves as a distuptor rather than a vanguard tank. He is more focused around his own survivability now due to his new passive becomming very spammy later on or if you lane vs a very Skill oriented champion like ryze.

i can't honestly say they fulfilled what they wanted to do with him, sure, he fits more for his specific personality now, an undying mad tree-ghost. but as a tank they really shot far off the target.

DarkRitual1 votes

I think the new coin line is stronger, but just on different champs. I used it on Morgana the other day, while the enemy Soraka had gone Spelltheif's. I finished my quest up in about half as much time, even with my ADC feeding pretty hard.

It's just going to take some time for people to get used to the new item dynamics. You can't take coin if you're going to be zoned and pushed out constantly, even on supports that WANT to take coin.

chipndip11 votes

New coin is great...

...for Rakan. >_>

Troll for Trump1 votes

Armor pen nerfs in conjunction with armor buffs are actually pretty significant.

Anonagon1 votes

I don't know how you can complain about the decision to only rework three champions. It's been clear in the past that attempting to tack extra reworks onto a class update just results in shitty reworks that cause major problems later on (Syndra, Shaco, Fizz), and it's also clear that attempting updates of this scale on champions that need VGUs creates monsters (Skarner, Morde). With this in mind, the decision to rework just a few champions who only need work at this scale is appropriate.

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