AP Scaling Utility is a bad stat, Sona being the worst offender of this.

Masala Chai··28 votes·2,489 views

Our 3 champions with AP Scaling Utility are Nami Sona Lulu

Nami has scaling AP utility with her passive, which isn't a huge part of her kit. Her bases are pretty decent, and aren't affected by AP, which allows her to be pretty good in the support role.

Sona and Lulu have AP Scaling utility across of all or nearly all of their spells. So here's the problem with both of them

  1. Their base values are rather low in the realm of supports, which means they need to scale... which means they can't really support real well early on.
  2. AP items are now really expensive after the cost adjustments in patch 5.22 (exceptions to Lich Bane, Abyssal, RoA, and Nashor's) , and supports in general aren't given a lot of gold for their budgets.

So, Lulu has been shifted around to top lane where she can bully melees, and midlane where she can turn assassins into squirrels. She gets a bigger power budget, and now scales really well in the fact that she's a pretty good replacement for Orianna in terms of utility.

So, what about Sona?

She's too squishy and doesn't have enough peeling tools for a solo lane, and she sort of needs another person in order for her kit to work to its full potential or else her heal and damage is pretty much irrelevant in midlane, and her waveclear is lackluster in comparison to the Yordle. Her ult is OK, but there are other midlaners who have spells that can imitate Flash- Crescendo with no flash such as Orianna Viktor Velkoz . All 3 of which definetly have a form of waveclear.

In the support role, she needs to buy AP stat after finishing FQC + SS, as her utility scales off of her own AP. She normally builds around 4 AP items a game item 3092 item 3100 item 3285 item 3135. And still does a great deal less damage in a given game than other supports that build 4 AP items Zyra Velkoz BrandAnnie , and even does comparable damage in an average game to Morgana who builds 2 damage items. Let's not forget that she deals no form of hard cc without being at least Level 6 while the other 5 have some form of hard crowd control.

So in short, AP scaling utility is bad in a support role is bad, but Nami still has good bases, and Lulu can survive in a solo lane. But Sona isn't really accomplishing that much in her current state except somewhat average damage and a small amount of sustain and she should be reworked, by a support main this time hopefully.

70 Comments

OurLestrade11 votes

I never got the point of AP utility scaling. You're not supposed to get AP on supports in bulk, so why promote getting it?:O

OverpoweredSoap4 votes

{quoted}

I never got the point of AP utility scaling. You're not supposed to get AP on supports in bulk, so why promote getting it?:O

Because they wanted to promote supports building ap when they made ap utility scaling. (Pre-season 4 if I remember correctly)

It crashed and burned and I believe they removed it on most of the supports that got it.

Sona got her's with her rework again though, which is weird.

OurLestrade7 votes

Sona's rework as a whole was pretty depressing. I haven't been able to pick her up again since :/

Sniper 01 votes

{quoted}

Sona's rework as a whole was pretty depressing. I haven't been able to pick her up again since :/

I miss being able to actually play her outside of the support role z.z...

McKeifus1 votes

My guess is to prevent Supports from going all out Mid Lane and building Mage Tanks. A careful game.

Athenes Lulu2 votes

"B-because supports actually have momey now, that means they WILL stack AP!!!!!!!" -Rito

A Miss Fortune2 votes

I think AP Utility Supports are fine but the amount of items for AP Utility items is minimum. item 3504 anditem 3060 are pretty much the only ones aside from the starting item. Would be cool to see items like Ardent Censer, they focus mostly on utility but give a reasonable amount of AP so that it's desirable by AP Supports.

Pika3103 votes

Remove Ardent from your post and replace it with: item 3050

A Miss Fortune1 votes

Yeah because Zeke's is necessary when every ADC has 70% - 100% crit and in a lot of games you don't even have an APC.

Pika3102 votes

That doesn't magically make Ardent Censer stop being complete crap and a waste of data in the game's code.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

Because at the time this was implemented the only thing you were allowed to buy on supports were pink wards, green wards, and Oracle. So they wanted to find away for supports to be decided by something other than, who does their job the best without items.

Pika3101 votes

No, it happened simultaneous to when that era of supporting came to an end. Nearly every support in the game got nerfed(lone exception being Lulu) and a few were gutted(Taric and Sona). Then the gold-gen items got transformed into the 3 lines we have now. The AP scalings didn't even help anyone(except Lulu) as they were so ridiculously low that it meant MASSIVE amounts of AP to make them worthwhile. Hell, with the shitty AP-support items we've gotten to this day, those still aren't enough to compensate for the nerfs supports took to their bases.

If you really want to inform yourself about it, check out patch 3.14 and the subsequent patches following.

MagicFlyingLlama4 votes

Sona always buys AP. Living under a rock, are you?

Start spellthief, upgrade it for the gold income first back. It should easily give you over 2k gold in a game if you upgrade fully early and poke frequently. That is basically an item that pays for itself. Get lichbane, troll fools with it, pick up assists, profit. Sona has sickeningly high ap ratios and damage so she can function well on a support budget.

Ever seen a truly fed sona? She oneshots people like veigar on crack with 400 siphoning stacks.

Masala Chai6 votes

But she shouldn't have to buy AP in order to be relevant, that's the point.

You can do the same with Lulu, Help, Pix! on to their ADC and then Glitterlance them straight through, and you'll probably get around 75% of their HP with FQC and Luden's.

SaltyKracka1 votes

Why shouldn't she? Tank supports have to build tank items to be relevant, other AP supports build AP items to be relevant.

What makes Sona so different?

Masala Chai4 votes

Sona builds 4 AP items (as well as the other damage supports) + SS and Boots.

Other mage supports (such as Morgana, Nami, Bard, Soraka and the occasional Kennen) don't go 4 AP damage items normally. Kennen can go with the Rigtheous Glory, Morgana, Soraka, Nami and Bard gets Locket and/ or Crucible or some defensive item or varient for supporting their ADC. As Sona has only 1 damaging basic ability, it doesn't make a lot of sense for her to build damage, but she is forced to build AP because most of her power is in ratios and not bases. Zyra has 2 damaging basic abilities, Brand has 3, Vel'Koz has 3, Annie has 2, and Molten Shield damages you if you auto attack her.

SaltyKracka1 votes

So group her with the other damage supports, but remember that her healing, shields, and utility scale with AP alongside her damage.

It's really not all that hard.

Masala Chai4 votes

Nami's and Bard's heals scale with their AP and Nami's E slow scale with her AP, so why isn't Nami building a whole ton of AP?

Lich Bane and Luden's Echo are purely offensive items, unlike Abyssal, Rylai's and Liandry's which all have some defensive component such as HP and MR.

Ulquiorra9955 votes

The fact that she is completely useless unless going full AP - and not just full AP but specific items. Riot has overnerfed to the point that she relies on every available source of artificial scaling (Lichbane, Ludens and Thunderlords) - and if she can't obtain those (like when falling behind), she's just a ult bot with a durability of a minion.

Other AP supports don't need to go full AP to be relevant. If i get ahead as Janna or Nami for example, I'll build more towards AP - but if I'm behind I can afford to go cheaper utility items and still provide for my team. As Sona I don't have that luxury. It's do or die, win big or go home.

chipndip14 votes

{quoted}

Why shouldn't she? Tank supports have to build tank items to be relevant, other AP supports build AP items to be relevant.

What makes Sona so different?

Cause Sona has to build straight mid laner items, not just an Ardent Censor or a Zeke's.

That and tank items are significantly cheaper than damage items, especially ap damage items.

1000angrybees8 votes

high ap ratios lmfao

her bases are average to below average and no ability is above 50% of her AP. If you're talking about how she has a lot of front loaded damage with Staccato+Q Aura+Lich that's still the only way she does damage. Lich is literally a 3k gold extension of her mediocre damage output that artificially creates a high AP ratio for her attack.

Sona is absolutely nothing without items like Lich and Ludens- which is one of her glaring problems.

ChaosThief1 votes

Well, combined with the items power chord + Q's proc + lich bane is quite a hefty ratio, but this is more amplified by the items than it is by AP itself.

1000angrybees2 votes

Exactly. If anything is the culprit here, it's lich bane. Otherwise she has pretty average damage herself.

Pika3102 votes

Average is an overstatement. Sona's damage potential is amongst the worst in the whole support class. Bottom 3 without exception, possibly THE worst depending on circumstances. If Spellblade and Echo were taken out of the picture, Sona's damage output on 3rd-party sites would begin to reflect exactly this. Her overall winrate would also fall all the way below 40% to boot, she'd have THE worst winrate in the entire game.

These facts are already evidenced in professional play. She is the LEAST likely champ to ever be considered being picked as a support competitively. Going as far back as patch 4.13, she is the least-recently played support across all regions. It's so painfully obvious that 4.13 is the reason she's not a playable character.

MagicFlyingLlama1 votes

How about we compare all champions in a state where none of them can buy core items, then use this to reflect real game balance. It would make about as much sense as most of these complaints.

How many other champions have items they are almost obligated to build in order to be effective? Most of them.

gsai4 votes

Ya Sona's rework didn't make any sense. Before she had higher base utility because of her aura stats that gave an absurd amount of gold worth of stats. What they gave her in return was a really shitty lane phase and spending money in order to go even with the old utility that she got base.

1000angrybees4 votes

I used to disregard people when they said that Sona is just a worse Nami, since I love playing Sona. But honestly? Nami's fucking W does all three things that Sona's QWE does, and that's just ridiculous to be outclassed by a single ability. Not to mention she has hard cc outside of her ult, which is also another thing Sona can't do.

It's sad to see her like this when she could have more potential, instead of mediocre poke, bad heals and shields, lackluster speed boost and an ult that's definitely not bad but isn't great either.

RocketRelm4 votes

I know Sona's 'bad base scalings' were mentioned in sum, but I'm a little disappointed that we have a whole thread about Sona's sad state without explicitly highlighting the "wat." that is Sona's gain with every rank of E.

Matezoide3 votes
Masala Chai5 votes

Winrate wise? Sure.

But looking at the other numbers, you might not be so sure, Sona builds 4 AP items, yet still does almost half or 2/3 as much damage as the other supports who build 4 damage items (except Karma). And she does comparable damage to Morgana, who builds two AP items, and then straight utility.

Morgana also has the infamous snare, and anti-autism bubble which in itself brings a lot more utility than auras. She should not just be using Lich Bane and other items just because she is dependent on AP scaling.

SaltyKracka1 votes

What's Zhonyas? What's Zeke's Harbinger? What's FQC?

Masala Chai1 votes

FQC and Zhonya's are the two AP items.

Zeke's is mostly gotten for its utility, and not the AP

SaltyKracka1 votes

And yet it has AP, and no small amount of it either.

Masala Chai2 votes

But no Mage will ever build Zeke's. Riot designed the item for duo laner, not midlane. FQC was shifted to midlane during preseason, and Zhonya's is a mage item due to NLR.

SaltyKracka1 votes

{quoted}

FQC was shifted to midlane during preseason

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

No.

Masala Chai4 votes

But it's true! A lot of AP midlaners started using FQC because it was basically better Athene's or Morellomonicon.

TotalJerk1 votes

{quoted}

anti-autism bubble

wut

ChaosThief1 votes

One important thing that kind of bothers me: why does she have higher winrate if she ignores E until level 13?

LightIsMyPath2 votes

They can't add too much base damage to Sona, or her q mechanics would turn her into a very toxic champion ( I think noone likes the idea of a support able to 2-shot the enemy ADC while having an heal, a shield, a damage debuff, a movement speed buff, a slow, a damage amp for her carry and an aoe stun.). IMHO she needs some work, the concept of "able to do many things but not being the best at anyone" could even work, but right now she is TOO lackluster in every field.Don't forget that, on top of needing decent AP to be relevant, you need some defenses too because you are probably the squishiest champion of supports. And besides the" jack of all trades" role of support is greatly occupied by nami. Sona was supposed to be THE buffer support, but they changed her, they changed the reason for which you should pick her without adapting her kit accordingly.

Nami was intended as a possible midlaner, or so they said, and so is lulu. I read they nerfed to the ground the possibility of nami to go midlane, now they are slowly nerfing lulu every patch.but their support contropart is not really being compensate..

Penguin Eclipse4 votes

{quoted}

They can't add too much base damage to Sona, or her q mechanics would turn her into a very toxic champion ( I think noone likes the idea of a support able to 2-shot the enemy ADC while having an heal, a shield, a damage debuff, a movement speed buff, a slow, a damage amp for her carry and an aoe stun.). IMHO she needs some work, the concept of "able to do many things but not being the best at anyone" could even work, but right now she is TOO lackluster in every field.Don't forget that, on top of needing decent AP to be relevant, you need some defenses too because you are probably the squishiest champion of supports. And besides the" jack of all trades" role of support is greatly occupied by nami. Sona was supposed to be THE buffer support, but they changed her, they changed the reason for which you should pick her without adapting her kit accordingly.

Nami was intended as a possible midlaner, or so they said, and so is lulu. I read they nerfed to the ground the possibility of nami to go midlane, now they are slowly nerfing lulu every patch.but their support contropart is not really being compensate..

I'm not so sure that is accurate. Nami's kit is pretty clearly designed to not go in the solo lane.

Masala Chai1 votes

Champion Spotlight kappa.

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

{quoted}

Champion Spotlight kappa.

The spotlights are not known for being accurate.

QjTHqo3RTq3 votes

{quoted}

"able to do many things but not being the best at anyone" could even work,

They already have someone who does that. Thresh

Catastrop1 votes

People keep talking about having to build AP on Sona to be useful, yet I'm always going; item 3069 item 2045 item 3009 item 3190 item 3110/item 3025 item 3050/item 3504/item 3222 and having a great deal of success. Granted this was like, last year July- mid September when I played nothing but Sona for a while, but I've never had issues going with a standard support build.

LightIsMyPath4 votes

The thing is what you provide with that build could be provided, better, by a Nami ( if you don't consider the shield and the damage debuff on w.. But no one would pick sona for her shield, which is pretty crappy, and she is too squishy to make really good use of damage reduction because if someone focus you you will explode before the autoattack animation is ended.Of course if you like her and practice her it's not impossible to have succes, but the reward is less then the one given to other champions.

M0b1us1 votes

Kayle

Her heal and speed boost are both increased by AP.

Masala Chai4 votes

But she's a solo laner and not traditionally a support. She can have her scaling because she can get her AP items easily. Sona? Not so much.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

AP scaling utility gives you the option of buying standard support items and the utility they provide or building AP instead to enhance your own natural utility. I fail to see the problem.

chipndip14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LkonWzLi,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2016-04-05T00:17:23.482+0000)

AP scaling utility gives you the option of buying standard support items and the utility they provide or building AP instead to enhance your own natural utility. I fail to see the problem.

I think the issue is that it blends supports and mid laners too much.

If you put too much ap on a support item, mid laners want the support item because now they get free utility on "good enough" ap. If you don't put enough ap on it no one wants it because it's Ardent Censor garbage.

They could have made a separate stat for scaling buffs that ap supports could clamor around, with unique items that had 40 - 60 ap, some of that stat, cdr, movement speed, or whatever else have you. That way if someone really wanted to go hamm on making a big ass shield or make someone go-g-go go go-go go gotta go fast, they could do that, but if they wanted some damage on their last item, they could do that too. This way we could give ap supports fair amounts of ap on their items while making sure mid laners would be punished for taking their items (cause they'd get useless stats).

Could it work now? I doubt it. Would it have worked if they did it way back when? I bet yes.

More from Gameplay

More by Masala Chai