Can we please look at making Sona stronger

only zhule··8 votes·1,426 views

I keep playing Sona and i keep noticing that she just doesn't have the power i feel she needs. She seems like the kind of character that on paper is this power house (5 person buffs sound amazing), but so much about her is just wrong. Your utility stats are really low and on pretty long cooldowns, your early game isn't all that strong (your mana costs to support are super high with very very low power), and most of the champions being picked bottom either are tanks, thus they can take your poke and have a hard engage against you, or champions that vastly out scale you with their abilities. Soraka will out heal your damage with ease, Nami can win trades with poke against you, Bard's shrines can negate a lot of your damage output, Janna out ranges you, pretty sure Lulu's shield can more then absorb your damage output and she can do decent damage if you get close enough to try and poke.

Add to this issue, that Sona's kit is currently designed around her needing A LOT of AP to get half decent numbers. A feat most common in your typical AP carry... who would be in mid.... getting considerably more gold during the laning phase. So we currently have a champion who is still kind of designed (kit wise) as a mage, but needs to function on a support budget (which also means your first item is likely going to be sightstone, then boots, despite the fact that you REALLY need mana regen to be viable in lane)

I keep hearing people say that she's "so strong late game" but i would disagree. If you build her with a ton of armor/resistance she becomes really damage sponge-y and can trick the enemy into over focusing on her. Or you can build her as a glass cannon, but you are still stuck with 1 damage spell + 1 ultimate (not sure how to exactly count the damage from powercord into this). I would argue that most of the other AP support champions would function on equal or better terms then Sona if they were rocking 400+ AP. However most of these champions do not need that level of AP to hold their own, Sona as i have said does not fall into this (you have no hard CC besides your ult, your heals and movement speed bonuses aren't strong enough to effect most battles and are on such long cooldowns you often can't cast them more then twice in a fight).

If you build her to take a hit she's not going to have the numbers to help her team or be a danger to the enemy, If you build her with the numbers to assist her team she's not really being built to fit a traditional "support" role. Sona as she currently exists is a huge mess design wise. She lacks the damage to bully people out of lane, unless you have a hyper damage ally like Jinx or Draven , you lack the support numbers to help keep your ally alive in a fight, and you lack a hard CC outside of your ultimate to engage or disengage in a fight. Your choices also basically end up being either have no damage but be deceptively hard to kill. Or find a magically way to get the gold of a mid lane champion as a support.

My suggestions for buffs to her are

  1. change her bonus healing back to 1% bonus per 1% missing. If i'm going to have super low base healing, it would be nice if i didn't have bad AP rations AND bad bonus healing on the skill.
  2. lower her heal and movement speed ability cooldowns. Again if you are going to have super low base stats on them (or in the case of the movement speed a super short boost) it would be wonderful if the player could use them a little more frequently.
  3. change her powercord E from a slow into a stun. I'm thinking something like a 1-1.25 second stun. The ability feels like such a waste, you hit it 2-3 times to get back into lane 3-4 seconds faster. You basically never use it in the late game because you'd rather hit harder or lower your enemies damage output for a moment.
  4. Make her "auras" into freaking aura's. As they stand her spells do not give off aura's they give off one time use buffs (often very unimpressive ones at that). Keep the time limit on them, but instead of being one and done make them have a lasting effect so long as your allies stand in it. Make the aura feel worth trying to keep up. Make it so that you aren't standing with your thumb up your butt with a useless aura that got +2 seconds, because you tagged all your allies with the initial cast.
  5. MAKE HER AURA AREA BIGGER. If you are going to limit her skills to being one time use, it would be wonderful if they could effect a slightly larger area. We don't need to go back to her old 1000 range aura, but it would be wonderful if i didn't have to be close enough to smell what brand of shampoo my ally uses to give them a boost. Maybe bump it up to something like 500 range... close enough that you are still somewhat in danger trying to buff them, but far enough that you aren't in the front lines trying to give your ally a small shield or a minor damage boost. Remember Sona is designed to be super fragile.
  6. Lower the mana costs on her utility spells in the early game (but raise the power level amount to compensate). I should not be running out of mana because i cast 3 spells to help my ally over the last 2 mins.
  7. Give her back some of the bonus damage on her power cord Q. If she needs to be super vulnerable to hit her combo, it would be nice if the combo did enough damage to push an enemy (yes even the tanky ones) back in lane after they take 2-4 of them to the face.

30 Comments

SaltyKracka3 votes

No.

only zhule3 votes

{quoted}

No.

Would you perhaps like to expand on that? Give a reason you feel she doesn't deserve a power up?

SaltyKracka3 votes

She doesn't need it.

only zhule8 votes

{quoted}

She doesn't need it.

Great chat, really informative. I totally see your thought process with all that logic you laid out.

Just Jangle1 votes

{quoted}

No.

^DIS!! No need to say more.

only zhule3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Just Jangle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LYa353iY,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-09-12T08:26:12.158+0000)

^DIS!! No need to say more.

Guess we disagree there

Just Jangle2 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LYa353iY,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-09-12T08:30:18.938+0000)

Guess we disagree there

I get it you main Sona and you want her to be a bigger faceroll champ, but yeah not gonna happend.

only zhule2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Just Jangle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LYa353iY,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2015-09-12T08:33:03.746+0000)

I get it you main Sona and you want her to be a bigger faceroll champ, but yeah not gonna happend.

I do main her, what's your point?

I would like her not to be designed as an AP mage expected to function on a support budget.

I would like it if she wasn't often just a walking ultimate in the late game

I would like it if her risk reward ratio was actually a freaking reward when you pulled it off.

I would be magical if a champion expect to only fill a support role, wasn't hobbled in her ability to support.

Archon X2 votes

What they need to do is revert it back to persistent damage/resistance auras like in season 3, instead of this chickenshit "oh here's some bonus damage on one attack" or "here's a little shield"

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LYa353iY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-12T08:28:42.800+0000)

What they need to do is revert it back to persistent damage/resistance auras like in season 3, instead of this chickenshit "oh here's some bonus damage on one attack" or "here's a little shield"

I would love the idea of going back to a persistent bonus while the aura was up. Like make them all have a base of 2 seconds, with the plus half a second per ally tagged. Keep players from having it up at all times, but makes it have much more of an impact while it is up.

Indominus Blade2 votes

No. Once she actually requires a brain and skill to use, then she can be buffed, until then, she better remain unviable.

only zhule2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Indominus Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LYa353iY,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-09-12T09:47:56.468+0000)

No. Once she actually requires a brain and skill to use, then she can be buffed, until then, she better remain unviable.

i get the feeling you don't player her. Or you might know the level of bullshit you have to factor into all your actions. She looks easy, but is so much harder to play then people give her credit.

If you want easy look at almost all the hard engage champions. Land one ability get a kill (or weaken enemy so much they have to retreat and you get control of lane for a while)

Placentas1 votes

I can usually do 1/4 an adcs HP after upgrading my -insert that start frost queen item- with one q and then if I rush a sheen its like 1/2 their hp. She doesn't need a buff.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

I can usually do 1/4 an adcs HP after upgrading my -insert that start frost queen item- with one q and then if I rush a sheen its like 1/2 their hp. She doesn't need a buff.

I find this interesting. Usually by the point i've managed to save up the 1700 gold (assuming you didn't get the sightstone if you are rushing sheen) the enemy ADC is well on their way to IE or BotRK. To add to this if they have a support with a hard engage it's going to be hell to get that close unless you baited out their engage somehow.

You claim 1/4 after getting frostfang, this would make me assume your enemy is around level 3-4... so let's call it 600-700 hp. You are saying that with one combo you are doing 150-175 damage after factoring in resistances? With sheen let's bump that up to around level 5 so let's say your opponent has 850-900 hp. You are claiming with a sheen proc you are doing 400+ damage with an empowered attack + powercord?

Her burst isn't 100% horrible, but it sure as hell isn't that impressive. Plus unless your enemy is very stupid you aren't going to be able to get them repeatedly with your powercord combo. You get off the combo and now are without your damage spell for 7-8 seconds. You could build up for another one but that means dropping about 200-300 mana into spells that do little to nothing. Let's assume you surprised them from the bush, chances are they will either ward the bush or not get close enough to let you surprise them again, you lack any CC so you aren't landing a second round of empowered AA + power cord quickly. You spend 25-40 seconds before you can position yourself again to try and go for some damage... how much as your opponent healed by this point? Chances are you can't surprise them this time, so that means running towards them and hoping they ignore you until you get off your combo and can run back to safety.

IcyPepper1 votes

The main problem with Sona is that she has amazing synergy with several support items, and most of these items are severely boosted in the late-game when your team is grouped close together... just like Sona's auras are.

item 3092 gives her some soft cc (talisman isn't needed on Sona) with some decent stats item 2049 helps against assassins and catching people out (eh, not her specifically but she's vulnerable to flanks!) item 3158 helps give her 40% cdr perfectly. Magic pen not necessary item 3100 not auras specifically, but amazing synergy with her passive item 3504 goodbye towers, hello enemy team meet my autoattacking carries item 3190 aoe mage, meet my active+W combo with boosted MR aura

Even if some of those items aren't the best on other supports, every one of these support items are used to their full potential on Sona. Sona herself is not that powerful, but goddamn when late-game comes and you have these items you make your team, instead of yourself, powerful.

In a sense, that kind of makes Sona the ultimate support. Sure she can poke and all that (passive+LB combo ftw), but she is incredibly powerful in teamfights if you know what you're doing.

It's all about perspective mate. I'm no Sona main, but I love Sona. Just look at my icon. Sure, she feels weak in certain match-ups, and sometimes she feels underwhelming and powerless, but if you look at the big picture... she's a beautiful maven that controls the battlefield with music. She's not there to 100-0 a squishy (even if she could), she's not there to top someone up with heals (even if she could), she's not there to be uber amazing cc overlord, she's there to control her team's movements, the enemy team's movements, and dictate the flow of battle like what's to be expected from a support power fantasy.

only zhule1 votes

My issue with some of those items is they really just end up feeling like win more items. Frost queen has pretty so so stats (and frost fang is painfully outclassed by the other support items), and the effect on it is just short enough that you can't really engage with it, and if you want to catch the enemy team retreated with it you have to be playing the front line (a huge risk with how squishy sona is). Censor bothers me to no end, it sounds amazing on her but again it just feels like such a win more item, it rarely ever feels like you use it and your ADC wins because of the bonuses, more like they won with 10% more health then they would have had if you didn't have the item. Plus in late game it often feels like it just doesn't help the team as much as an item that gave you good AP would (guess it depends a little on the team comp)

Lich bane is the biggest false problem when you talk about Sona. With that item kit you listed she will do +85 magic damage per 1.5 seconds assuming she times all her abilities perfectly, this is from 170 AP. Basically any champion can buy the item and get similar effects.

I'm some what disappointed that the last buff i mention is the first one you focus on. The idea is not specifically to buff her damage (as i think people have this warped opinion everytime they see a thread like this). Her issue isn't damage, her issue is that her support ability is garbage in the early game and it's power in the late game is tied heavily to her building a lot of AP (and issue that other supports do not suffer under). Imagine that same list of items on someone like Janna, Soraka, or even Karama. Do Sona's abilities lend themselves that much better to those items then other supports?

I would hardly call changing her E to a stun making her a "uber amazing cc overlord". Much like i wouldn't call Annie that and she has 3 spells that can be used all with different area's of stun. Remember the ability is on a 12 second base cooldown, requires you to be in AA range, and that your last spell cast was your E. That's a lot to line up to get a short stun.

I honestly believe that she isn't all that strong. She is just designed in such a way that she needs to build like a mage, for both her damage AND her utility, but god forbid she do damage like a mage.

IcyPepper1 votes

I do like the idea of changing her powercord E into a stun (because one you have Frost Queen... what's the point of using anything but Q powerchord? You have exhaust typically as well ;~;). She'd probably need some nerfs since cc is her main weakness, and I can see them hitting her AP ratios a bit and maybe boosting the bases so it doesn't hurt as much.

Here's her stats. Too much buffing is going to throw her into OP zone, a possibility that none of us want (because we all know Riot would immediately take the nerf bat to her knees).

She'll deal a little more than 85 damage, just add 75% of her basic attack. Keep in mind that it's not her only damage, she still has her passive and Q (which comboes with Lichbane, and hurts) and her reasonably low cooldowns really helps poking as long as she's protected by her team. By itself, Lichbane isn't much, but due to her kit it's one of the better "selfish" non-support mage items for her.

All in all, Sona is pretty decent but she doesn't always feel strong so I know where you're coming from. If we give her any massive, more visible boosts in power, she's probably going to get love taps in other departments as compensation.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

I do like the idea of changing her powercord E into a stun (because one you have Frost Queen... what's the point of using anything but Q powerchord? You have exhaust typically as well ;~;). She'd probably need some nerfs since cc is her main weakness, and I can see them hitting her AP ratios a bit and maybe boosting the bases so it doesn't hurt as much.

Here's her stats. Too much buffing is going to throw her into OP zone, a possibility that none of us want (because we all know Riot would immediately take the nerf bat to her knees).

She'll deal a little more than 85 damage, just add 75% of her basic attack. Keep in mind that it's not her only damage, she still has her passive and Q (which comboes with Lichbane, and hurts) and her reasonably low cooldowns really helps poking as long as she's protected by her team. By itself, Lichbane isn't much, but due to her kit it's one of the better "selfish" non-support mage items for her.

All in all, Sona is pretty decent but she doesn't always feel strong so I know where you're coming from. If we give her any massive, more visible boosts in power, she's probably going to get love taps in other departments as compensation.

My issue with lich bane making Sona "too strong, because of her kit" can basically be highlighted by comparing Sona's kit to Soraka. If you gave both characters a Lich bane, because of Soraka's kit she would have the ability to use it more often (2 of Soraka's base spells have lower cooldowns then Sona... both of those spells also scale to even lower base cooldowns as your level them up). Now you basically never see a Soraka running around with Lich Bane, because she is considered a pure healer. Would people say Soraka does to much damage if it became common for people to build her with Lich Bane? As i said she can active it MUCH more often then Sona, thus the damage adds up much faster. Now imagine someone like Thresh being built with around 200 AP and having Lich Bane, i would argue that his damage would go through the roof. Neither of those champions is really designed (concept wise) to do a ton of damage, but give them a selfish item like Lich Bane and all of a sudden they are monsters damage wise. So why is Sona (who concept WAS based around her poke) punished for picking it up?

As i said before it's not her damage i really want to see get a boost its her utility. Her heal feels super underwhelming, and the shield while nice don't feel like it lasts long enough and kind of feels inherently weak because it could be abused with Censer. Then you look at her E, the spell just feels so useless most of the time. It doesn't do damage, it doesn't help your allies most of the time, you might use it to get back into lane a few seconds quicker but over all until your team is trying to get somewhere fast, the spell just doesn't do enough to deserve taking up a slot in her kit. I can't think of any other champion who has a skill that feels so underpowered/ useless for so much of the game

Fiveofswords1 votes

sona is a support. everything you are complaining about also applies to all the other supports. sonas early game poke is actually very strong...the q and power chord does impressive damage. also lost of supports would be jealous of sonas ult. as far as a damage support goes shes actually pretty high...even without ap. she certainly would beat soraka or Leona for overall damage output. Maybe she cant heal quite as much as soraka but she heals just fine. she buffs fine. her ult is important.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

sona is a support. everything you are complaining about also applies to all the other supports. sonas early game poke is actually very strong...the q and power chord does impressive damage. also lost of supports would be jealous of sonas ult. as far as a damage support goes shes actually pretty high...even without ap. she certainly would beat soraka or Leona for overall damage output. Maybe she cant heal quite as much as soraka but she heals just fine. she buffs fine. her ult is important.

You want to compare damage? Let's compare it to other damage based supports, your Lux , Annie , or Karma

You want to compare healing let's compare it to Nami , Bard , Kayle

Her damage with the powercord combo isn't awful levels 1-3, but after that your damage doesn't hold up/do much in lane until you either get a lot of AP or build a spell blade item (which surprise surprise makes basically any support with it a whole lot stronger). The issue is that while it does half decent damage you often have to risk your ass to do it, and most of the roster either can punish you heavily for it or have an ability that negates 75% or more of the damage... and you take a few auto attacks for your trouble. This all assumes the ADC (or if they have a super squishy support) is stupid enough to let you get it off a couple times.

I never said her ultimate was bad. Just that it's kind of shitty to end up playing a character who's basically defined by their ultimate and their ability to hit multiple people with it every time.

Fiveofswords1 votes

well u don't do as much damage as for example Lux Fiddlesticks but the trade off is those guys have practically no sustain at all. you do. I think sona heal is better than kayle or nami or bard also...look at the cdr and the fact u heal both u and yr laner

im actually not sure if sona would do less damage than karma. I think sona probably does a bit more on average. and im also not sure about annie.,,,annie can get nice burst but its fairly long cd so its more for a kill than for poke. kinda like blitzcrank.

only zhule1 votes

higher base cooldown, for more healing and a speed boost tacked on for good measure.

Then there is Nami, with her heal also having the ability to bounce to an enemy champion for damage (or more common bounce from enemy champion to self or ally). Still with a movement speed boost tacked on for good measure.

Nami, 80% of Sona's base kit on one ability.

Fiveofswords1 votes

things are different on paper than in practice. Ive played both name and sona support plenty. Namis bouncing heal damage thing is fine and all...its quite mana hungry...and its also somewhat uncommon that you actually get a position for it to have full effect. its quite rare to get 3 bounces. frankly more often than not u dont even get 1 bounce, u are just healing your adc who got low and had to retreat toward turret. sonas heal is a double heal, quite easy...less mana hungry. As far as speed boost....namis passive and kayles heal are quite pitiful compared to sonas ability. Also as name with the somewhat short range in everything u can really wish quite often that you had picked sona. Its just so much easier for sona to poke without getting herself in danger.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

things are different on paper than in practice. Ive played both name and sona support plenty. Namis bouncing heal damage thing is fine and all...its quite mana hungry...and its also somewhat uncommon that you actually get a position for it to have full effect. its quite rare to get 3 bounces. frankly more often than not u dont even get 1 bounce, u are just healing your adc who got low and had to retreat toward turret. sonas heal is a double heal, quite easy...less mana hungry. As far as speed boost....namis passive and kayles heal are quite pitiful compared to sonas ability.

Oh i am well aware Kayle's movement speed bonus is lower then Sona's but it is tied to the heal. Nami on the other hand her movement speed bonus exceeds Sona's until Sona maxes out her movement speed bonus and gets level 3 ultimate. It can also be activated with her ability that increases her allies damage.

You comment that her ability is very mana hungery. I will admit that at rank 3 it exceeds Sona's cost. But that is also both her primary damage spell and her healing spell (the combined cost is still higher if sona was to cast both her abilities.)

Sona's double heal is a trap logic wise. Hell her heal numbers are a trap in all regards. Yes if you add the amounts together they look impressive. But when trying to keep an ally alive the amount of health healed and the amount of shield given for 1 target are painfully low, add to that the fact that the shield last such a short period of time.

Booriin1 votes

{quoted}

sona is a support. everything you are complaining about also applies to all the other supports. sonas early game poke is actually very strong...the q and power chord does impressive damage. also lost of supports would be jealous of sonas ult. as far as a damage support goes shes actually pretty high...even without ap. she certainly would beat soraka or Leona for overall damage output. Maybe she cant heal quite as much as soraka but she heals just fine. she buffs fine. her ult is important.

I main both Soraka Sona and I can easily beat Sona in lane phase by Soraka Janna. No matter how hard Sona could poke, I can still keep my ADC full HP with Soraka.

Sona ult is crap compare to Soraka Janna ult. It required her to find good position or burst her summoner 4 to be effective, the stun is just way too short, require her team to quick engage. While playing Janna you can easily make play with her ult or change whole teamfight and bring victory to your team with ap Soraka .

If Riot keep Sona weak like this, then she is not easy to play at all, her weak kit won't give her much room to makeplay, she is just a boring champion for new players to learn support. When your rank reach above Platinum, you will find out that Sona won't fit Support Role at all because her utilities is too weak and most players know how she work so they can counter her easily

{quoted} sonas heal is a double heal, quite easy...less mana hungry. As far as speed boost....namis passive and kayles heal are quite pitiful compared to sonas ability.

Did you play Sona? Her heal cost a lot of mana, it is a mana trap for Sona early game. Nami have stun with shorter cooldown, her damage buff give slow effect as well and her ult is way bigger than Sona's ult. I have no idea why would you compare Kayle with Sona in term of utility.

I won't deny that Nami is a hard champion (hardest support in my opinion because of AP scale, squishy and required good skill to land Q)

Baby Ghoul1 votes

I think Sona gets the job done in lower ELO because of how easy she is to play. It's pretty hard to mess up as Sona, and I think that's why a lot of people there pick her, and why people hate her. However she needs a lot of AP to be relevant. You're completely right that Sightstone itemization hurts her more than any other support. Her E ability is also useless.

Something should be done to balance Sona, and this might not necessarily be all buffs. AP Sona is not viable on Summoner's Rift because of the laning phase, but it's still strong.

If they were to make Sightstone more diverse and friendly towards AP supports, then she'd most likely be in more games than Thresh. I feel like she could use a rework.

Crett1 votes

She needs power shifts, badly. Sona's state as a glorified poke-bot is holding her back, and I doubt most Sona players will tell me they would rather play Sona as a poke-bot than an actual aura focused champion.

Q should be more focused around the damage it gives her team rather than the obnoxious poke it is right now. May need a bit of a rework to get that working in a way that doesn't leave her hanging on the thread of her teammate's response to her Q casts. Once her Q is in a better spot, she could definitely get buffs to the rest of her kit.

It would be a net powerup, but in a way that doesn't make her an oppressive monster in lane like flat out buffing her in her current state would do.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

Sona has imo all the power she needs (been playing her a lot recently after sulking her post-rework). the meta just doesn't favor her because she isn't and was never good against tank supports. She doesn't need raw numbers increase as they could make her oppressive which means nerf bat. She could use some tweaks on her auras to make them more practical and more rewarding.

For instance:

Q aura can no longer be wasted on minions, can be spent on buildings, and is more visible (that last one is purely QoL) W shield automatically applied to the healed target and tagging that target with W refreshes the shield (Lux style), and/or the shield lasts longer E's aura gets either better lvl 1 and becomes a valid one point wonder skill, or gets more increase per level, OR speeds allies as long as they stand in the aura

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LYa353iY,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-09-12T12:54:28.171+0000)

Sona has imo all the power she needs (been playing her a lot recently after sulking her post-rework). the meta just doesn't favor her because she isn't and was never good against tank supports. She doesn't need raw numbers increase as they could make her oppressive which means nerf bat. She could use some tweaks on her auras to make them more practical and more rewarding.

For instance:

Q aura can no longer be wasted on minions, can be spent on buildings, and is more visible (that last one is purely QoL) W shield automatically applied to the healed target and tagging that target with W refreshes the shield (Lux style), and/or the shield lasts longer E's aura gets either better lvl 1 and becomes a valid one point wonder skill, or gets more increase per level, OR speeds allies as long as they stand in the aura

I will admit a lot of her "weakness" is based around how many tank supports are now in bottom lane, the issue is not made any better by the fact that the last 2-3 support characters to show up have been tank-y supports.

You also have to look at the meta, which sadly currently is 75%+ tanks in support roles. When the meta doesn't favor your champion you usually can just wait it out a bit, this time however the meta doesn't look to be shifting away from tanks. How long does a meta have to stick around before character who are inherently weak to it get a buff so they can be more competitive?

TNHA Baritone1 votes

I just wanted higher heal percentage and higher movespeed on her E

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