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Why you should max W (Mocking Shout) on Tryndamere before any other skill. (Numbers included)

Lafouboy··9 votes·4,847 views

Yes, I realize that everything is situational, but it seems that nobody ever does this. For the trade off of some stronger early game sustain and a bit extra AD, at level 9 you can practically gimp your opponents AD by reducing it by 80 and, if their backs are turned, slow them by 60% for an entire 4 seconds. I put numbers into it to see how much it would affect the enemy team by level 9; a Yasuo would only have 0.976 Base AD, a Jax would have 8.97 Base AD, a Jinx would have -2.6 Base AD, a Volibear would have 5.944 base AD, and a Malzahar would have -1.3 Base AD for the entire 4 seconds if they were mocking shouted (which is literally impossible to miss).

The trade-off for maxing W before Q (the difference between the amounts lost and the amounts gained with Q being level 2 instead of 5 and W being level 5 instead of 2): You are trading some early game sustain, 30 (+1.35 per fury) less HP on active use, and some early game AD, 15 (+.15 AD per 1% health you are missing) less AD, for this level 9 AOE massive AD debuff, 45 more AD stolen, and potential slow, 22.5% extra slow, that lasts 4 seconds.

You can trade out your ignite for a teleport and literally be the person who wins those early team fights by jumping at the enemy and shouting at them. This also keeps him just as safe (if not safer) and may be able to help set up counter ganks twice as well while in lane. Your laning power switches slightly, but does not go down, while your early game teamfighting ability skyrockets (seriously, imagine Jinx shooting at you or your teammates with only the bonus AD from the items she bought for a whole 4 seconds).

So, what do you think forum? Should you max W before Q on Tryndamere? If not almost always, when? If never, why?

EDIT I did the math wrong; some champs are stripped down to negative AD, such as Jinx, when mocking shouted at lvl 9. Fixing it now.

Also, you must remember that people at lvl 9 have not that much base AD compared to your W's flat decrease. The base AD for every champion is within this range: 61.168 (Orianna) - 94.756 (Skarner and Cho'Gath)

That means the amount of base AD after a lvl 9 mocking shout goes down between: --18.832 - 14.756

And it stays that low for an entire 4 seconds.

Honestly, he has one of the strongest AD debuffs in the entire game, if not the strongest; and it is AOE. Too many people seem to forsake it to last skill to max, but there is really no reason not to max it.

EDIT For champs like Ekko, also, it would reduce a ton of damage from them (because they still rely on their AD, for auto attacks, for damage when they go in on you at that level).

26 Comments

Shroom Junkie5 votes

As Abnegates said, max Q against AP champs or champs like Jayce who poke hard(granted you don't have a ton of lifesteal). Otherwise, I never thought about it, but that would be pretty OP. I mean, you wouldn't even need to have a Q because you'd just kill them within the four seconds of a fight due to items and that base crit chance. I personally level E up last, because its really utility, but I used to max Q first. Now that I see this I'm going to try that.

Lafouboy1 votes

"Champs like Jayce who poke hard" It is not like you would beat him in a 1v1 anyways; he would knock you away after bursting you if you E'd in, then back off, or burst you harder then back off until you used your E, then knock you away. Might as well get the higher slow/AD cripple to weaken him for jungle ganks (and so you can gank other lanes).

Yet again, I can see the argument for using Q over W, but if you max Q second anyways, the small amount of sustain you are losing in the early game really doesn't equal the benefits you gain in maxing your W instead. W slow could guarantee a successful gank/a successful counter gank (and think of all the people who would dive you pre-6, not expecting the W to cripple their AD under turret so badly). Q gives a minor sustain boost.

But that is just my thoughts on that.

Shroom Junkie1 votes

{quoted}

"Champs like Jayce who poke hard" It is not like you would beat him in a 1v1 anyways; he would knock you away after bursting you if you E'd in, then back off, or burst you harder then back off until you used your E, then knock you away. Might as well get the higher slow/AD cripple to weaken him for jungle ganks (and so you can gank other lanes).

Yet again, I can see the argument for using Q over W, but if you max Q second anyways, the small amount of sustain you are losing in the early game really doesn't equal the benefits you gain in maxing your W instead. W slow could guarantee a successful gank/a successful counter gank (and think of all the people who would dive you pre-6, not expecting the W to cripple their AD under turret so badly). Q gives a minor sustain boost.

But that is just my thoughts on that.

True. But, pre-6 your Mocking Shout would only be probably rank 1-3, meaning it'd only reduce it by 20 to 50 AD. Still, could be good bait, especially if you just smack'em in the face with your sword then kite around the turret until they're low enough and shout to slow them. Shout if they're in your face too or ranged.

Lafouboy1 votes

True, but 20-50 AD is still a really strong AD reduction at the level you would be getting it by maxing your W first.

Here is Jayce's base AD from lvls 1-5 (which at lvls 3 or 4 you would reduce his AD by 35, and at lvl 5 you would reduce it by 50): Lvl 1: 50.38 Base AD (30.38 [rank 1 W] after W) Lvl 2: 53.88 Base AD (33.88 [rank 1 W] after W) Lvl 3: 57.38 Base AD (37.38 [rank 1 W] - 21.88 [rank 2 W] after W) Lvl 4: 60.88 Base AD (25.38 [rank 2 W] after W) Lvl 5: 64.38 Base AD (14.38 [rank 3 W] after W)

And remember that the slow scales from 30%/37.5%/45%/52.5%/60% when their back is turned.

Shroom Junkie1 votes

{quoted}

True, but 20-50 AD is still a really strong AD reduction at the level you would be getting it by maxing your W first.

Here is Jayce's base AD from lvls 1-5 (which at lvls 3 or 4 you would reduce his AD by 35, and at lvl 5 you would reduce it by 50): Lvl 1: 50.38 Base AD (30.38 [rank 1 W] after W) Lvl 2: 53.88 Base AD (33.88 [rank 1 W] after W) Lvl 3: 57.38 Base AD (37.38 [rank 1 W] - 21.88 [rank 2 W] after W) Lvl 4: 60.88 Base AD (25.38 [rank 2 W] after W) Lvl 5: 64.38 Base AD (14.38 [rank 3 W] after W)

And remember that the slow scales from 30%/37.5%/45%/52.5%/60% when their back is turned.

Very true. You make a good point. I'll try that tomorrow. For now, its off to bed for me! SLEEP IS GOOD. <3

ChargeItDownMid5 votes

[deleted]

Lafouboy1 votes

I posted the numbers for what you were giving up and what you were gaining. The amount of damage you are losing (30 AD if you are a 0 HP and 15 AD if you are at 100 HP) is not really worth the loss of an AD debuff that so heavily affects the early game by pretty much disabling all AD champs (and some AP champs, as most still auto between spells to keep sustained damage; especially Ekko and Diana) damage for a whole 4 secs and slowing them massively if they turned their backs towards you. Elongating the amount of time you have until you need to use your ult by 4 seconds is just pretty much adding another 4 seconds to your ult's invincibility time. His W is a pseudo-ult that can help your entire team at lvl 9.

I posted the numbers for a reason; to help show the correlation of what you are gaining vs. losing. The gains easily outweigh the losses.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Lafouboy1 votes

You are only elongating it the amount of time it would take to kill them if you have an extra 15 - 30 AD (yet again, how much your Q would give you); which is likely not more than 4 seconds. Also, that is an extra 4 seconds that your carries get to stay alive and attack them for. (Hey Rengar, so I heard you liked ulting my carry. How much do you like doing it when you lack 80 AD in the middle of our team?)

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

Be more dense please.

KING ATTILA3 votes

Maxing w sounds nice in theory (I used to max it second after Q) but I find it more useful to my playstyle with Trynd to be as offensive as possible...so I start E, Max Q (the extra damage and heal is too good) and max E second (dat 120% AD bonus tho).

I really like that you made a post about W though and incorporate that into your own playstyle! Plus 1, man.

A Miss Fortune3 votes

You don't actually NEED abilities to play Tryndamere, just right click with your level 1 Infinity Edge.

lB2kGRlc8y2 votes

That's funny, I agree to a point since that's all his damage, auto attacks, but getting into melee range is a whole different problem. Trynd's spin is one of the slowest dashes there is, hitting him mid spin is laughably easy, and he has no room to be sneaky really, he has to go straight for you to deal any damage. If nobody else had any defensive abilities at all, then sure he would only need autos.

Sire Hippington2 votes

it's rather situational what to max. If you face an ad enemy that actually wants to trade with you, W is the way to go, if you get poked down by a ranged laner that you can't really all in(like liss), max Q for sustain. in all other cases max E, better waveclear, better trades, better chaseing/escape potential

W is powerfull, but it's off no use if you enemie doesn't want to fight with you in the first place(more slow isn't as great as less cd on your gapcloser+more burst if they try to run)

Player of Games1 votes

I think maxing W is particularly good against any AD based top, I'd personally max Q against pokey lanes or AP tops though (Rumble/Vlad).

Lafouboy1 votes

I can see where you are coming from, but I personally think that if you are not gonna win your lane anyways (like dominate it), then why not just max W and win other lanes for people (teleport W gank or teleport into a teamfight and W to gimp/slow all of the enemies), instead of just farming stagnantly?

Lauricella31 votes

E is for waveclear, I personally like to put a second point in w for a stronger slow, q is good for sustain if you are losing.

Durzaka1 votes

Mocking Shout max can be amazing, in specific circumstances (supp tryn OP).

But it is almost always better to just go for the raw damage and sustain of Q.

Mocking Shout may let you win a trade, but Bloodlust will let you win the entire lane.

1011001110001 votes

I max W against Riven's and the stray top Xin Zhao, along with other AD scalers. It's funny watching their trades reduced to **** because I called them chickens. :^)

Edit: I tend to max Q though, for the extra AD and increased healing.

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

I always go for bloodlust first for the obvious damage increase and sustain, its practically all he has in terms of damage from his kit since it affects his autos. I usually grab one rank of slash then go hard mocking shout, as the -AD is crippling against AD champs early game, and it makes its slow more effective.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

it really depends...if you have trouble chasing someon down/waveclearing maxing e is also viable - and for the few cases that you need extra sustain during early laning even leveling q can have it´s merrits. Never tunnel on one skillorder/buildpath, it will just cripple yourself. That being said, in most cases maxing w is absolutly the right choice.

Aboylova921 votes

I generally have always maxed second, or at least even with Q. It really helps against all in champs like Riven. The only reason I might be maxing E second is when I'm just steamrolling top lane, and the extra damage/CD does help.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

It's all situationally, really. I do find myself maxing E first more often than not, however, because it offers good trading (Auto a few times then spin back), waveclear and mobility.

Say you crit twice in a trade with rank 5 E, you can realistically use it to engage, and then to disengage/finish off after 5 seconds.

Maxer131 votes

Start with E, than q, than W.

Max Q first allways.

VS AD champions max W

VS AP champions max E

Max ult when you can.

420 grams1 votes

I put a few points in e early to help me clear camps, then Max w.

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