"being able to build a teamcomp without marksmen is one of our goal"

Ahristocats·Jan 20, 2018·138 votes·18,443 views

https://youtu.be/G9flvYe_DOA

8 years, after 8 years it's happening...

Never Never was i so hyped for something

Since like Yasuo release in 2013 holy....

https://media.giphy.com/media/rl0FOxdz7CcxO/giphy.gif

221 Comments

KVbqbFsC8eJan 20, 2018114 votes

I'll believe it when I see it.

AirKingNeoJan 20, 201826 votes

I don't think that's going to be possible unless they're able to make new Doran's items for duo-laning melees. Mages wouldn't have a reason to go bot. Melees can't go bot because melee = support fucks them.

meowwow7Jan 20, 20184 votes

unless it's some cheese agro lane with a gap closer melee and taric

RiotRiot MapleNectarJan 20, 201855 votes

This would be the kind of things that's completely on the table / we've started exploring. We can accomplish this goal in quote a few ways, just a matter of finding/picking the right ones

AhristocatsJan 20, 201814 votes

maple nectar!!!!!!!!

https://youtu.be/x0XVYu88vmQ

As a diamond/master tier Mordekaiser+Blitzcrank player and Dota2 player i have my own idea about what you can do

if i can make it short i suggest you look into: -creep aggro -base ad of marksmen -reliability of melees -XP sharing in the bot lane

creep aggro really doesn't help against ranged poke bot base ad of marksmen hurts so much if you try to farm melees are really unreliable Mordekaiser is the only melee able to work bot because of his XP passive allowing to get lvl 3 faster than any melee

Sincerly

HopeStartsWithUJan 20, 20189 votes

Not marksmen are the problem. The problem are the melees themselves since they don't have reliable gap closers or escapes. Yasuo and Morde work on bot because(besides mordes xp passive) they have shields to negate most of the damage from poke.

They kinda have to rework the supports into more "melee friendly"- champs or more procteting champs who can provide help to melees in early stages which wouldn't work because marksmen would abuse it. They could also try to give more sustain to melees in form of items.

Not sure what you think about it but maybe a different form of dorans shield which will act like a xin ult except instead of blocking damage it could reduce the damage in a certain range and become the full damage the closer you get? Melee toplaner wouldn't abuse it and marksmen on top wouldn't be such a problem anymore. Just my 2 cents tho :P

AhristocatsJan 20, 20185 votes

Mordekaiser also works because of his insane sustain

Afterall, the video said they're looking into items to make a comp without marksmen so it will be more about items making melees and other champions like mages able to lane bot against marksmen+supports

maybe they will make an item giving bonus xp in duo lane like morde passive? maybe they will make an item reducing poke, i have no idea

like maple nectar said, there is a lot of ways they just have to pick the good ones

RiotRiot MapleNectarJan 21, 201834 votes

Definitely agree with the short list. Some of the other things that we need to make sure are that they can contribute to objectives (turrets, dragon etc) meaningfully in early/mid game, as well as scale up adequately with game length so that you're not gimping yourself if you take a melee bot into a ranged bot and lose when the game gets to 30 because they're able to take objectives faster. These are all just things on very long lists of problems we'll need to solve for it, but I'm excited.

Oh also, to your reply to me from a few days ago regarding nuanced decision making. This is one of the things that I didn't want to talk about then before this video, but this is one of the things that goes pretty hard in that regard (and that we're pretty excited about if we can do it). Taking a non traditional bot lane changes the way your entire team comp forms, the items you and your teammates buy, how you rotate around the map and all that jazz. I'll agree with your statement that at present there's certain aspects of it that are lacking, but as we investigate new runes and some of this meta breaking stuff I think we're going to get to a state that this is far more of a reality. Here's hoping it goes well.

World EnderJan 21, 20184 votes

I have a question. Say everything about this idea goes exceptionally and we're able to take champions other than Marksmen bot lane, with a traditional support.

What is the target audience of the Marksmen-replacer, for lack of a better word? Melee carries like Yasuo and Trynd? Bruisers like Jax, Fiora, Aatrox? Or mages? Or is the goal that all of these types of champs could have a place bot lane?

Think this is a really neat idea btw and am super excited to see how it shakes out.

vgamedudeJan 21, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I have a question. Say everything about this idea goes exceptionally and we're able to take champions other than Marksmen bot lane, with a traditional support.

What is the target audience of the Marksmen-replacer, for lack of a better word? Melee carries like Yasuo and Trynd? Bruisers like Jax, Fiora, Aatrox? Or mages? Or is the goal that all of these types of champs could have a place bot lane?

Think this is a really neat idea btw and am super excited to see how it shakes out.

Hopefully loads of different options are viable.

Evil YasuoJan 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LTMxGH15,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2018-01-20T23:24:54.416+0000)

This would be the kind of things that's completely on the table / we've started exploring. We can accomplish this goal in quote a few ways, just a matter of finding/picking the right ones

Now if assassins all get their burst speed back, i'm going to consider this a dream come true.

Janna Me FiddleJan 21, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Now if assassins all get their burst speed back, i'm going to consider this a dream come true.

Dusk blade. You're welcome

Evil YasuoJan 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Janna Me Fiddle,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LTMxGH15,comment-id=0003000200050000,timestamp=2018-01-21T01:34:47.146+0000)

Dusk blade. You're welcome

Abused by tanks and bruisers, you're welcome. Assassins are weak right now

Janna Me FiddleJan 21, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Abused by tanks and bruisers, you're welcome. Assassins are weak right now

Zed

Fizz

Evelynn

Rengar

Akali

I would not call any of these weak.

Talon

Ahri

I'll give you these two.

As for "Bruisers abuse it"

JarvanIV Shyvana are Junglers and that's because Dusk blade is busted as hell especially combined with thunder bolt.

Renekton has all the durability of wet paper if he builds that way.

NineTailedMysticJan 21, 20187 votes

Ahri hasn't been an Assassin in a long time, and her damage now just can't live up to it.

LOSINGISMYPRIDEJan 21, 20188 votes

Plz just dont make melee carry like phantom assasin in dota . I dont want to be hit for 450 % crit . [slayer-jinx-wink]

ArfBarkBoofJan 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LTMxGH15,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2018-01-20T23:24:54.416+0000)

This would be the kind of things that's completely on the table / we've started exploring. We can accomplish this goal in quote a few ways, just a matter of finding/picking the right ones

You'll have to forgive my skepticism on the idea of bottom lane melee carries since the idea of a safe lane doesn't exist in League of Legends and never has. That's probably one of the very few things that Defense of the Ancients does better than this game because you don't always need a ranged carry depending on your team comp. But of course, the only time melee carries seem to have existed in the pure "right click" form are either Master Yi or Tryndamere. I'll be watching your progress but I sure as all get-out won't be holding my breath.

RiotRiot MapleNectarJan 21, 201813 votes

We're definitely not looking at this as an easy thing to do, but I also don't think it's impossible. I'm also seeing a lot of people latching onto the idea we'll only be focusing on melee champs. More mages is another thing I'd be really happy to see in the botlane (how do we get more Ziggs types down there?)

AhristocatsJan 21, 20184 votes

I'm definitly not latching onto the idea that you will be ONLY focusing on melee champions

Meddler during the ziggs stuff said that melees are harder to bring bot and thus mages will be first https://i.gyazo.com/9825b53535c50bb4e2866358b5477ee5.png

But what you have to keep in mind is:

Mages go mid to get an XP advantage just like in dota2

if you bring them bot, it would mean that the XP advantage from mid is no longer relevant to a point where decision making would not be increased since you gain the same thing from going mid or bot

Going bot should be because you're a late game powerhouse that needs protection in early game So i suggest you look at Mages who are really risky choises to play mid due to being immobile or squishy and easy targets for ganks

NaqelJan 22, 201810 votes

(how do we get more Ziggs types down there?)

How about you don't nerf them to the ground when they show up?

redniwediSJan 20, 201821 votes

Can we go back to the fighter/support bot lane days? Even if it's just for a week?

WDG DevourJan 21, 20186 votes

Am I the only who doesn't like the sound of this?

redniwediSJan 21, 20185 votes

Don't worry, it won't actually happen. Basically it was just top lane with supports, and so nothing happened unless someone got caught out by support CC.

What we're getting is going to be much more annoying that a permanent wet noodle fight.

RainfallJan 20, 201817 votes

Riot's secret plan: step 1:make marksmen so broken that they are picked in every single lane step 2:everyone now picks to counter marksmen step 3:now no one plays marksmen step 4: Marksmenless team comps Genus.

zero356Jan 20, 201813 votes

My only issue is talking about the resolve tree and how they think people will be inherently less interested in it. I've had suspicions for a while that Riot is inherently focused on damage and offense; this confirms it.

Now, is that a bad thing? Not entirely, but I would like a little more recognition for people who could care less about doing damage. I like tanking. If I play a tank and can win by keeping everyone else alive, I really don't care if I do damage.

~~Also, Yasuo came out in 2013? Still feels like he's a relatively new champ.~~

ModKnightsKemplarJan 21, 20187 votes

That's not how I interpreted the statement on resolve. I think what they're saying is that they've seen a trend in the player-base that people like to play high damage, flashy champions like Yasuo and Riven.

What they were saying was that they still care about tank players, even though they are a minority of players. They're going to do what they can to make the runes more interesting for those players even though they think that's unlikely to make people want to be tank mains.

If I'm interpreting your comments and their comments correctly, these changes are aimed at pleasing people like you. They want to help you by making those runes better.

zero356Jan 21, 20185 votes

Two points

I am will make my claim right now that whatever changes they make/add to resolve will ultimately be more offensive than defensive. Riot likes things to be active. That's fine, but they have yet to generate more than a handful of half decent ideas that are defensive in nature while still being active.

Second, I would question whether that is the naturally occurring nominal opinion or if preference for damage is merely an offshoot of offensive being more prevalent for the last several seasons.

Ozzie StormJan 20, 20188 votes

SO instead of fixing adc's in season 8 they're planning to get rid of the role alltogether smh #sarcasm

AnateraJan 20, 20188 votes

How can it be one of their goals when the current meta is undeniably the opposite of that?

ChuShoeJan 21, 20187 votes

I know this is kind of off-topic, but did ANYONE else notice this BOOSTED ape tryndamere melee auto that drag at zero health and die because of it at 2:04? https://youtu.be/G9flvYe_DOA?t=124

LárxeneJan 21, 20182 votes

Yeah lmao I was like wtf??

Yordle XayahJan 21, 20186 votes

Mordekaiser YEAH CAUSE WE HAVE A GREAT PRECEDENT ON THAT "NEW" IDEA

mack9112Jan 21, 20186 votes

If this becomes a thing I will play this game again

THE RlVER KlNGJan 20, 20184 votes

would be cool if Swain turns out to be a mage designed for bot

aka he's a general so he's good at sieging, conquering, and taking new ground like Azir

didn't riot say he has some sort of long-range vision/control ability too?

Oakleaf RangerJan 21, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LTMxGH15,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-01-20T22:45:19.806+0000)

would be cool if Swain turns out to be a mage designed for bot

aka he's a general so he's good at sieging, conquering, and taking new ground like Azir

didn't riot say he has some sort of long-range vision/control ability too?

As a Swain main, let just me say HELL NO.

DoozkuJan 21, 20183 votes

Last time they reworked a champion to be a botlane pick from a top/mid pick, we got Mordekaiser . Id much rather they introduce new items/systemic changes to ease new champions into the lane rather than force one champion to go down there and have it all fall apart.

Plastic 5 ADCJan 21, 20184 votes

Puke, absolutely horrible idea.

saltranJan 21, 20183 votes

Everyone is here now happy, wait when wathever they are planning go to live and we will have the biggest unbalanced game ever. And then Boards will say that what is Rito doing.

vgamedudeJan 20, 20183 votes

PLEASE DEAR GOD. Let this be like a good game where the carry is actually varied and diverse for once and not just one damn class in one role ALL THE TIME.

Jinx HunterJan 20, 20183 votes

Calling it now, this is going to end up like Magma chamber. You know they make a lot of promises and never keep half of them.

SlythionJan 20, 20183 votes

Oh god they're going to be adding new items though...given Riot's history of listening to the community on this stuff I dread the incoming cases of abuse and bullshittery :(

Deus SolarisJan 21, 20183 votes

why fix marksmen when you can just delete them from the game? :D this is just the perfect meme

Pokemonred200Jan 21, 20183 votes

I genuinely question how one item will allow for team comps without marksmen.

Wouldn't this be something that requires several...?

It would be interesting to see what a new Doran's item for something like mages or melee fighters botlane would do, though.

Seeing Ziggs as an ADC was fun (although it wasn't always the most fun to play against), and I would like to see a meta where we would see champions like Yasuo , Cassiopeia , Gangplank , Ahri , Tryndamere or Ryze as replacements for marksmen like Jinx , Vayne , Draven , Caitlyn , Kalista , or Twitch .

It scares me a little bit to think about, but I'm exited to see what you do come up with.

Bronze DemonJan 21, 20183 votes

Good, am sick of this supermeta role of adc for 7 seasons str8

kirlosJan 21, 20182 votes

you want people to stop using shooters in games maybe you should consider to give some help for champions who is forgotten. like Volibear Sejuani Nunu Maokai Chogath DrMundo Galio Alistar Amumu Malphite Poppy . these are some of the champions that people never choose and if they buy them they regret the moment they bought them. today every body only cares to themselves which means they only want to kill so they choose rangers with high attack speed and assassins with high dmg and easy play. nobody want a headach on playing tanks rolls because they barely have dmg or attack speed or crapy skills and before they could kill they'll be dead.

mack9112Jan 21, 20184 votes

You don't league often do you

macromiteJan 22, 20182 votes

to make melee work in bottom you are going to need to make this game a LOT more melee friendly from the bottom up.

ISLAMICWARRIOR99Jan 22, 20182 votes

I mean this can't happen without making marksmen unplayable. Unlike all the other classes they are more or less only viable botlane because they don't do enough damage or have enough utility/tankiness to face other champs 1v1. Mages are just better at doing more damage earlier (some of them can do most of ur hp in a burst combo with a d ring) so if you make them work bot most marksmen are gonna be trash. This just sounds like pandering to the boards and their refusal to accept its ok for something to be the best at a role. I mean by this logic we should buff all the assasains so they can be played to vs bruisers and tanks just bc they've worked best mid for a long time.

JustMonika13Jan 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I mean this can't happen without making marksmen unplayable. Unlike all the other classes they are more or less only viable botlane because they don't do enough damage or have enough utility/tankiness to face other champs 1v1. Mages are just better at doing more damage earlier (some of them can do most of ur hp in a burst combo with a d ring) so if you make them work bot most marksmen are gonna be trash. This just sounds like pandering to the boards and their refusal to accept its ok for something to be the best at a role. I mean by this logic we should buff all the assasains so they can be played to vs bruisers and tanks just bc they've worked best mid for a long time.

Thing is, there's a multitude of viable (sub)classes in every lane but bot. Support, top and jungle can be anything from full tank to (almost) full damage. Mid is more damage oriented but dealing that damage can be done in a multitude of ways. And with reworked Galio you can even play a tank/ bruiser (depending on build) mid. Only botlane is always ranged (and in 80-90% of the cases also physical) damage mostly delivered through basic attacks.

My ideal solution would be to make marksmen more self-reliant but shave off a portion of their lategame damage.