Huge AOE damage, no CD spammable nuke with isolated bonus…

HateDaddy · 2015-09-22T14:43:09.745Z

Ring a bell? No? Hint: it's always the answer: Sounds pretty damn broken right? I mean, damn, max rank ult is 550 base damage and he has a mana restoration passive spell to boot! Did I mention he still deals a shit ton of damage after he dies for 7 seconds! "Just dive karthus," you mean just give him a penta kill? Sounds pretty asinine doesn't it? I made karthus sound completely broken. That's because I mentioned his strengths and the focus of strengths on his kit without considering his weaknesses or the price he pays or having what he has. Pro-tip: you can make anything sound broken as hell and overowered to all ends if you discuss balance this way and don't consider the price champions pay to have what they have. Another good example is . If I just mentioned her kit alone, you'd think I was talking about a champion from DOTA. Impossible to burst because of a huge defensive steroid passive, mobility, MS boost to boot and passively gains armor/AD from that spell, immune to all CC/damage from 4 champions and a huge targeted max %hp spammable nuke. But then you realize her mana costs are crippling, she has an abysmal time under tower with no means to push waves out and as a result, very hard to scale with. Fair price considering her ult, her passive and absurd damage. Just remember listing strengths or simply giving a summary of what a kit has without denoting the price and conditions in which they have these mechanics/abilities is only telling half the story and is a piss poor argument that should be immediately dismissed of there is a failure to acknowledge this.

HateDaddySep 22, 201513 votes

{quoted}

Tell me 3 weaknesses of Vayne or Darius -specifically-, not just "Vayne is squishy" or "Darius gets """kited"""", which applies to pretty much every champ in their role/ class ... You cant right? :o I mean, Karthus is immobile, has fairly low range, has only magic damage, his ult has a long channel and is countered by a lot of things, his main damage source is a hard to hit skillshot, his W is useless against dat mobility creep as well,...

Darius can be kited, is immobile and melee, extremely exploitable to cc due to that immobility, extremely poor base AS

Vayne is 550 range with no means of extending this range, is prone to being blown up by targeted CC champs (Ryze, Lissandra, Vlad -moreso for damage, annie), very bad siege for an ADC

Both are possibly overtuned but don't understate the significance of their weaknesses.

PennsSep 22, 20154 votes

Like I said, "gets kited" doesnt count (and isnt even true in Darius case), because thats the point of juggernauts. Just like "prone to being blown up" doesnt count since thats the weakness of any carry really.

Darius doesnt even have low AS either and cc is... well. The only real weakness Vayne has is that she doesnt have any ranged spells, tho 550 aa range is pretty good. She maybe isnt the best adc to siege, but she can split push really well.

KögâSep 22, 20156 votes

Tell me x champions weakness but you cant use real arguments, only ones that make your champ look bad.

For reals tho vayne gets shit on by all poke. If you're outside her range she cant do anything, she cant use her CC properly, if she tumbles towards you she now cant position properly to use her CC or to dodge skill shots. Half-rotations can usually burst her down as she literally is a squishy champion. <--- That is an actual weakness.

PennsSep 22, 20152 votes

I didnt say that, I said that "being squishy" isnt exactly a "weakness" of carries. Like, it is, but thats how the game is designed and supposed to be. Also I think that insane self peel with E, insane mobility and stealth is enough to be called "tanky" for adc standards unlike something like Jinx.

DokiDokiTodorokiSep 22, 20152 votes

Jinx is designed to be immobile as fuck until she gets a passive proc. She and Ashe are not the norm. Urgot and Graves are considered "tanky" adcs. Vayne has lower base health than Ashe, and she's the one who should be getting poked down. Self peel with E also means that she can no longer damage the target because it pushes them outside of her range. If she has to condemn away a tank in a team fight, do you really think she's in position to be dueling the other carries? Stealth can be countered by pink wards/oracles/ccing her for the duration. No one complains about Twitch's non-ultimate stealth. Being squishy=able to be blown up by one spell rotation from an assassin. That's how you counter any adc in team fights. You kill them immediately, or their sustained damage will win out. Vayne is an adc duelist, so if you leave her in a 1v1 with most adcs, either they blow her up before she comes into range or they're likely dead.

KING OF MASKSSep 22, 20156 votes

"Darius doesn't even have low AS either" What. Have you even played post-rework Darius? He starts off with 0.625, which scales up to a whopping .73 at level 18. That's fucking low if you ask me.

RisenDarkKnightSep 22, 201517 votes

Darius isn't weak to cc. He is a champion who is nearly always built extremely tanky, with a huge low cooldown missing hp heal in his kit. If you waste a bunch of cc on the tank, you probably won't even kill him since as soon as the stun wears off he'll just q and heal back a third of his health. He's certainly kiteable, but if you chain cc darius to death the 4 other champions on the enemy team will wreck you, and if you let him get off a q he'll negate most of the damage he took.

GorgannanSep 22, 20154 votes

He's slow enough that a slow is as good as a stun on him.

There's a reason people pick red card, and it's not always for the AoE.

TurquoiseYoshiSep 22, 20151 votes

And on the eighth day, God looked at juggernauts and found them weak to slows, because the Boards told him. So God made Dead Man's Plate, Black Cleaver, and Swiftness Boots with Alacrity.

Battlecast SonaSep 22, 20157 votes

And then you slowed that character before they could get to you, and they were still worthless.

Dead Man's Plate stops building stacks while you're slowed (and the stacks actually decay)... The only ACTUAL slow counter is Swiftness Boots (since it actually reduces effectiveness of slows), but if you have Swiftness you don't have Merc Treads. THE TRADEOFFS ARE REAL!

TurquoiseYoshiSep 22, 20151 votes

"Worthless"

If you get a single hit in, which isn't difficult, you get stuff from Black Cleaver. In any case, when you have 430 MS, short slow is not going to stop you from getting anywhere.

Battlecast SonaSep 22, 20151 votes

You realize that slows are a % of the MS of the person who receives them, right? So stacking MS actually doesn't help you counter slows, the only part of that kit that helps you even remotely is Swiftness Boots. So you reduce the effectiveness of the slow (but not the duration, because no tenacity)... Which actually means that, with this build, you should probably be going Merc Treads with Alacrity instead of Swiftness, since the idea is to be slowed for as short a time as possible, not for a lower %. But thank you for playing!

TurquoiseYoshiSep 22, 20151 votes

I worded my argument extremely badly, I didn't mean that slows weren't effective, but that the juggernauts are still getting to your back line no matter what you do. Sure, your slows will maybe keep them away for a moment, but that isn't going to end up in anything useful unless you absolutely need to peel off and aren't going to re-engage.

Battlecast SonaSep 22, 20153 votes

Every second that the Juggernaut is not in your backline is another second that your backline is DPSing instead of running away. This is incredibly valuable time, and talking about it like it's nothing is pretty ignorant. The whole counter method to juggernauts is specifically this - keep them out of your backline for long enough that you can either focus the juggernaut and kill them, or keep them out long enough for your backline to kill other people and then disengage. You can't just say "they're still getting there no matter what you do" as if that makes slows obsolete. What you're describing is literally the point of slowing a target, and since the slows are doing what they're supposed to... I don't see the argument.

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20156 votes

Vayne low range, she's crap at outpoking most other ADC who actually have abilities. Vayne has the lowest of, probably, all base health ADCs in the game. Her main damage is sourced from basic attacks so AS debuffs cripple her greatly.

Darius has a hard time against champions who outrange him. Sticking to his face reduces his Q damage. Tanks whom he can't simply ult and have a lot of health reduces his snowballing potential by a lot.

What do I win? :p

PennsSep 22, 20157 votes

I think I already posted a thread about Vayne in lane a while ago, showing how shes not getting outpoked by most champs, even less if she can dodge with her Q. In the end, supports decide pretty much every bot lane anyway. Her base HP is fairly average for an adc. Its low, but as if that mattered. Vayne has retarded damage from 2-3 items so its not that rare for a Vayne to just build like a QSS or banshees or whatever as third item if she needs it. Other adcs would be called a troll if they did that, but item 3153 for Vayne is basically item 3031 item 3046 item 3072 for every other auto attack adc :P

Only if they play really carefully + have some sort of hard escape. Tanks are actually pretty easy for Darius from what Ive seen. Like, if a tank is around him in a fight, they basically heal him more than they damage him lol.

TroyTheUnconquerSep 22, 20153 votes

Teemo and Teemo

Oh what's that darius? you wanna farm? pokey pokey my love

Had a darius rage quit on me top lane and just stand under tower trying to bait me into his pull under tower...

Same thing when playing against the gasp fizz top lane, had his tower by the 10 minute mark and at like 5 minutes in he said forget this and stayed at bot the rest of the game

ayNigerianPrinceSep 22, 20152 votes

That's always been a skill matchup. I don't know how Darius handles him since rework, but I'd assume it's pretty close to the same.

KING OF MASKSSep 22, 201514 votes

Teemo's autoattack range (500) is within Darius' E range (550).

Any halfway decent Darius will be able to exploit this to at the very least even out the matchup.

My Waifu VanillaSep 22, 20155 votes

Okay....Darius hooks teemo and then he can just stand in melee range of you and auto trade and win due to blind and Darius only having 1 viable ability at that point. People don't realize that Darius Q is complete ass in melee range (no heal, no passive proc, and practically no damage).

AlphadefSep 22, 20153 votes

And the pull has a slow. If they're gonna stand still, you move faster than them and adjust during the wind up...

TroyTheUnconquerSep 22, 20154 votes

standing up next to a darius after his grab isn't smart, since most Darius's build tanky i personally never have the time to kill him before my blind wears off and he starts a game of rape the scout. Also if he does his little spinning axe thing that heals him, plus his ult, he can kill you with just abilities

KING OF MASKSSep 22, 20152 votes

Early on that could be viable (if a little stupid, considering Teemo's greatest strength is his ability to hit-and-run) but standing next to Darius at any point past 6 is an excellent suicide method, even if you have a blind.

TroyTheUnconquerSep 22, 20153 votes

Blind's range tho is 560? 580? something like that if i remember correctly, so with some grasp of distances you can get a blind, suddenly back up as Darius wastes his E grabbing at a teemo who never came in for the auto, then get you auto in (or just ignore the auto, blind then run)

So technically teemo can still poke the hell out of darius with his Q

ThryaleSep 22, 20156 votes

that was true until riot fixed dar's E.

Previously, it'd drag you in if you were in range when he pushed the button, now you get dragged if yer in range when it finishes the animation. This gives teemo time to walk out with a tap of his W, when before he'd be screwed.

KING OF MASKSSep 23, 20152 votes

Excellent point, I haven't played as much post-rework Darius as I would like so I can't say for certain what effect that change has had, but I'm sure it isn't insignificant (especially on this matchup).

AzlagorSep 23, 20152 votes

Honestly, it was a huge hit into Darius face. Prettymuch all that rework did for darius and garen, but mostly darius, is makeing them even stronger vs melees, especially those that have little disengage, so even stronger in situations in which he already was rather opressive witt bloodrage/noxian might, and made him far worse vs high mobillity and/or ranged, mostly with the E change, but also the Q delay and overall nerfs to his kit besides heal and aditional passive.

I used to pick him vs short ranged adc like lucian or vs mobile champs like riven, cause i could use my E to screw their day and burst them down. Now, it's very hard to ever land a E if they are somewhat competent, and even if you do, without reaching 5 stacks, you deal rather poor damage, especially if you miss the Q-blade, and vs high mobillity it is nearly impossible to keep em in range for 5 stacks oe land the Q(again, asumeing they are competent)

Now, in adition to the juggernaut rework, three new items were released, all for melees only. The result: Tons of melees getting played to test the new stuff, while at the same time, the 4 juggernauts were played, champs that by (imo bad-)design hard-counter other melees. Not really supprising that juggernauts had an absurd performance and still perform well... And pretty telling that (new)darius was so bad on release that he needed hotfixes despite haveing the perfect enviroment...

SpecterVonBarenSep 23, 20154 votes

It's very much a skill match up but a lot more effort has to be exerted by the Teemo to keep dodging Darius's hooks and as soon as the Darius starts building some MR, Teemo's poke pattern starts to weaken and the match up favors Darius more.

Also, thanks to his late game buffs, Darius fares much better late game than Teemo (Who's actually worse since they nerfed his shroom duration) and Darius can still deal respectable to high damage with just Black Cleaver and full tank while Teemo gets popped by anyone with burst.

GorgannanSep 22, 20151 votes

Teemo Vs. Darius is like Rumble Vs. Darius.

They technically counter him, but if they make a mistep, they die, and now Darius counters them.

TroyTheUnconquerSep 24, 20151 votes

that is basically the same with any match up tho, Riven VS Olaf? Olaf messes up to much and gets Ganked or tries to be an idiot and tower dive, then suddenly the one sided Olaf smash fest turns into a Olaf shouting Riven broken and 2 ez in all chat

GorgannanSep 25, 20152 votes

The examples are much more extreme. Riven or Rumble getting a kill means a lot, but not as much. The other can still be outplayed. Renekton Vs. Rengar, one kill means very little.

Darius loses to the both of them, and has nothing to do to outplay. You're also forgetting that Olaf has to do something stupid, not make one single misstep. Teemo absolutely destroys Darius until the milisecond he autos when he should run or steps a little closer than he should or reacts to slowly when Darius turns on him. Olaf loses after the first kill, but Teemo stomps but can still lose at ANY point by making a mistake.

WarlockLawSep 22, 201522 votes

So why can you use every weakness of Karthus' but I can't use the biggest ones for those two? Try again without using anything related to mobility to describe Karthus' weaknesses because that describes everyone in the class of immobile mages.

Vayne's early game is weak, her siege is ass, and her team fighting is mediocre at best. And that's not mentioning the weaknesses she shares with her class

Darius has low damage until he gets his bloodrsge/Noxian might, scales poorly with defensive items, is imobile, has low effective range, isn't an amazing split pusher, has low base damage on the first rank of his ult.

The Bearded BardSep 22, 201539 votes

Her early game isn't weak, it's safe. There's a difference. And once she gets E bot lane bushes are now completely off limits for you and your adc. The adc's role in sieging is usually to AA the tower, vayne does that just fine, MEDIOCRE TEAMFIGHT? ARE YOU DUMB?

WarlockLawSep 22, 201511 votes

A good team fight champion either has high AoE damage or aoe/multi target cc, Vayne has neither so she can't be a strong team fighter inherently. Sure she has high dps, bit that's single target and team fights are vs 5

The Bearded BardSep 22, 20159 votes

As long as she picks the right targets in the right order, she'll win the teamfight nearly single-handedly.

Battlecast SonaSep 22, 201522 votes

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Huge AOE damage, no CD spammable nuke with isolated bonus damage, %mr shred/huge aoe slow, global nuke

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