Boards›Gameplay

Tanks should deal more Enemy %HP damage, less base

The Ecdysiast··1 votes·1,508 views

In lieu of attempting to make an item for them that couldn't also be abused by juggernauts and juggernaut-ish semi-tanks like Volibear and Tahm Kench, how about we just buff the %HP damage of tanks across the board? Those that have it, at least.

It would help offset the advantage Cleaver has over Sunfire a little bit, and more adequately punish juggernauts/bruisers who don't think and build solely HP with no other defensive stats.

And on the other hand, replacing some of the base damage with more %HP won't make them any stronger against more squishy targets. So we wouldn't see a sudden tank meta.

All I'm asking is that tanks be given a little bit of strength, so that they aren't just guaranteed to lose lane to opponents who are just building health+damage items. Maybe make fighters actually build at least one defense item, as intended, instead of just having the raw stats and sustain to build pure damage and health with no consequence.

37 Comments

VentusKing2 votes

So tanks should deal the dmg that counters tanks. Interesting.

Ragnaveil1 votes

I mean...its something, but idk if thats in the right direction.

Ralanr1 votes

Generally this prevents noodle fights while not doing too much to low HP champions.

That’s the basics of %HP damage.

VentusKing1 votes

thats like saying silver bolts dont deal dmg to non tanks. You realize as long as you dont buy resistances (except for vayne and fiora) 15% max health dmg will still do 15% of my max health regardless of how much i have. Ofcourse it wouldn't come in a burst like when used on Tanks but at the end it would still do 15% of his max health

Ragnaveil2 votes

Although, Vayne's Silver Bolts have a minimum base damage, thats why she does so much to squishes as well. If they removed that minimum, she probably wouldn't do so much.

VentusKing1 votes

She would still deal 14% of their max health regardless of their Max Health you do realize that?

Ragnaveil1 votes

Right. Then again her's is the worst balanced form of % Max Health damage, and Fiora comes in second.

VentusKing2 votes

I think Fiora is over her because She needs 3 aas while fiora can burst 25% of your max health in 1 hit with enough ad

Kazekiba1 votes

{quoted}

Although, Vayne's Silver Bolts have a minimum base damage, thats why she does so much to squishes as well. If they removed that minimum, she probably wouldn't do so much.

Rank 5 W is i think 55 minimum 14% max. In order to be under 55 damage youd need to have under 400 hp. The minimum is for small monsters and non-siege/super minions and doesnt matter to champions.

Max Silver bolts might be a lower number 14%, which does bring the number up but regardless its never doing close to the minimum. Not even Yuumi or Kled have values close to that

Ragnaveil1 votes

Max rank min is 110. Considering its easy to apply (Autos and E) and usually Vayne's have 2.0 attack speed at god powerspike, you can kinda start to understand.

Ralanr1 votes

Yeah but no tank is doing true damage.

Moody P2 votes

noodle fights are not a problem or sympomatic of bad design, noodling is exactly how a tank vs tank fight should pan out after items are acquired

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=PaG VentusKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LRAMKrxm,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-09T18:19:07.219+0000)

So tanks should deal the dmg that counters tanks. Interesting.

Yes? Though, not exactly. As I said in the post, it counters health more than it counters tank items. So it'd give them more of a leg to stand on against fighters who rush Cleaver/Trinity + Steraks with no armor/magic resist. That's the point.

VentusKing1 votes

But a tank shouldn't free win a fight vs a Bruiser who deals consistent periodic dmg

The Ecdysiast2 votes

[{quoted}](name=PaG VentusKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LRAMKrxm,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2019-07-09T18:45:01.491+0000)

But a tank shouldn't free win a fight vs a Bruiser who deals consistent periodic dmg

It's not a free win. It's an even fight. As it stands currently, a competent fighter has a free win against any tank that isn't a hard-counter. (rather, that holds true for everyone except for heavy dashers facing Poppy)

Cind3rkick1 votes

%hp damage?

  1. So... TahmKench Volibear Chogath
The Ecdysiast3 votes

No, not % of their HP, % of the enemy's HP.

Which is really odd to have to explain since your list includes two that don't have enemy HP scaling and one that doesn't have self HP scaling.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LRAMKrxm,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-09T18:13:01.151+0000)

No, not % of their HP, % of the enemy's HP.

Which is really odd to have to explain since your list includes two that don't have enemy HP scaling and one that doesn't have self HP scaling.

how about no?

youre trying to make tanks into better fighters. putting % damage in their kits just so the game is more intersting to watch for the LCS crowd when tanks face each other in the top lane was a massive problem for game health.

why would i ever pick a bruiser or juggernaut, when i can basically pick a bruiser with aoe cc and team engage?

The Ecdysiast2 votes

Ah, I was waiting for you and/or Moody to come in with the "please don't give tanks a chance against juggernauts" comments. Thanks for showing up. Always a pleasure.

But no, that's not what it would do. As I said, it would punish fighters who can currently coast by by building HP+damage items without having to think about the type of damage the enemy is dealing. It'd make you have to actually build against the enemy like Tanks do.

The tank menace of earlier seasons wasn't a problem with tanks in general. It was specifically thanks to Sejuani, Maokai, and Zac, who have all since had the most abused parts of their kits removed. Aside from that, it's been particular champions and not the class in general. Ornn, because he was released after that update, for example. Which is why I'm suggesting a buff to champions who already have %HP damage, not that they add it to anyone who doesn't.

As for why you'd still pick a fighter, I did say to reduce the flat damage so it isn't as effective against squishy enemies. A fighter would still have higher damage overall and be better at taking down priority targets alone. Basically, the same reason you don't pick Vi every single game.

VentusKing1 votes

I think a tank should never be able to constistently beat Darius Mordekaiser Illaoi or Garen inlane

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=PaG VentusKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LRAMKrxm,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-09T18:55:40.688+0000)

I think a tank should never be able to constistently beat Darius Mordekaiser Illaoi or Garen inlane

Then you're part of the problem. Because no champion should consistently lose to a stat-check due to lack of counterplay. And, once again, I never said to make them BEAT juggernauts consistently. Only have a slightly better chance. A change like this wouldn't offset the 1,000g worth of free stats every single one of them has at level 3.

Midg3t2 votes

[{quoted}](name=PaG VentusKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LRAMKrxm,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-09T18:55:40.688+0000)

I think a tank should never be able to constistently beat Darius Mordekaiser Illaoi or Garen inlane

but they should be able to do it if they played the lane right.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LRAMKrxm,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-09T18:49:39.955+0000)

Ah, I was waiting for you and/or Moody to come in with the "please don't give tanks a chance against juggernauts" comments.

they shouldnt have one in a 1v1.

you already have aoe cc, mobility and teamfight engage that juggernauts dont have. do you even understand that tanks are still picked in pro play because of how reliable they are due to their utility?

they dont depend on snowballing their lane like fighters do to be effective. they barely even need farm.

a maokai ult is always going to be the same no matter how many items he has. i dont see a reason why you should not get outscaled in 1v1 situatons by a class of carries when youre already so effective in 5v5.

why should your whole class be a bunch of better juggernauts? like Chogath ?

because thats exactly what buffing their % damage would do.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LRAMKrxm,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-09T19:18:45.932+0000)

they shouldnt have one in a 1v1.

Congratulations. You literally just admitted juggernauts are brainless in a 1v1.

Do you understand that the pros have drilled, competent teammates every single game, completely different from the general playerbase?

The reason you shouldn't get outclassed by a class that already has thousands of gold worth of free stats when they're not even building correctly should be obvious.

All I'm asking is that fighters actually have to buy maybe one defense item, as designed. Not just be able to mindlessly win lane by building nothing but health and damage.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LRAMKrxm,comment-id=000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-09T19:33:00.990+0000)

Congratulations. You literally just admitted juggernauts are brainless in a 1v1.

Do you understand that the pros have drilled, competent teammates every single game, completely different from the general playerbase?

The reason you shouldn't get outclassed by a class that already has thousands of gold worth of free stats when they're not even building correctly should be obvious.

All I'm asking is that fighters actually have to buy maybe one defense item, as designed. Not just be able to mindlessly win lane by building nothing but health and damage.

their traits are still the same in solo que.

tanks arent reliant on snowballing like fighters are. they do well enough in the early game against them, but theyre not supposed to scale into equal split push and 1v1 threats. there would be no fucking reason to ever pick a juggernaut if they get beaten by tanks in utility and have the same ability to carry.

Ralanr1 votes

There's no reason to pick a juggernaut if Divers start beating them in lane either. Hell, the only time it seems fit to play a juggernaut is if they beat out everyone in lane who brings utility.

This is probably why they are generally shit the higher you go.

Moody P1 votes

generally if a champion always loses they probably aren't good

Ralanr1 votes

So by that logic, tanks shouldn’t be very good because they are always meant to lose in lane fights.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

So by that logic, tanks shouldn’t be very good because they are always meant to lose in lane fights.

didnt i just mention power curve?

they should be able to fight on even terms early, but get outscaled damage wise. if you put too much % damage in their kits, they dont get outscaled.

Chogath e is a pretty good example of what to not put into a tanks kit. because then they just become tanks with juggernaut base damage.

Ralanr1 votes

I was talking to Moody who talks to me an Discord a lot so I get headaches.

%damage falls off against resistances. If a juggernaut builds defense like they are supposed to then they get hurt less.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

I was talking to Moody who talks to me an Discord a lot so I get headaches.

%damage falls off against resistances. If a juggernaut builds defense like they are supposed to then they get hurt less.

then defensive items need to do more for them. because building defense on a juggernaut currently feels like a waste of time. these builds dont allow you to deal enough damage while youre alive, and the protection you get out of them is miniscule.

if daris would work better with more tank items in his build, then youd see him building them.

Ralanr1 votes

I know they aren't good for them at the moment. I'm just tired of every fucking boards post that even tries to talk about tanks have a bunch of people saying how tanks shouldn't be buffed or even should be nerfed.

I'm just frustrated because I don't even want straight tank buffs, I just want defensive items to be better so people can FUCKING BUY DEFENSE like they are FUCKING SUPPOSED TO instead of going full damage or full damage +health and somehow having enough sustain or durability to survive.

I'm just frustrated that this cycle of complaints has continued for FUCKING YEARS.

Moody P2 votes

They don't always lose. I've been playing a couple tanks in top and the only lane thsts been miserable was Fiora. Even Mordekaiser I could at least duke short trades with early game.

The job of a tank isn't to duel; your job is to prevent the enemy from snowballing and being a stonewall. That is your job as a lane tank in top. Top tanks are not bad because they lose in duels; they're bad because they get outscaled too quickly and because mages and divers now offer just as much or better CC than tanks

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

There's no reason to pick a juggernaut if Divers start beating them in lane either. Hell, the only time it seems fit to play a juggernaut is if they beat out everyone in lane who brings utility.

This is probably why they are generally shit the higher you go.

power curve matters too.

tanks arent helpless with their ability to fight juggers early, neither are divers. Shen deals a shitload of damage at early levels for example. but generally speaking juggernauts should outscale both in head on fights.

the only type of carry who should be able to keep up with them in melee on even terms is skirmishers by outmaneuvering them and using their outplay tools.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

their traits are still the same in solo que.

Oh really? So Galio, Ornn, Sejuani, and Ryze were changed for no reason? Shen and Twisted Fate aren't changed every mid-season tournament?

And again, you're massively overestimating what a small change like this would do. You're so worried that you would no longer be guaranteed to snowball with stats alone that you aren't even thinking clearly. You'd have to maybe buy cloth armor early instead of rushing your higher-efficiency, direct-counter damage+HP item, or just position better so you don't take the full brunt of those abilities.

You aren't even remembering which tanks deal %HP damage. Every single one of them either has to hit you twice for it to be a significant amount of damage even if it were buffed, or has an extremely obvious indicator before hand.

Ragnaveil1 votes

I mean, that could possibly work.

Moody P1 votes

All 3 of these champions do both of those though

Self: Tahm passive, Volibear W, Cho R

Enemy: Tahm W, Voli E, Cho E

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