What's the Scope on Shen's Rework?

ExecutorDill·Jul 22, 2015·5 votes·18,562 views

Gangplank Level?
Tristana Level?
Fiora - Level?

I have just witnessed the awesome fiora rework simply awesome. Now i'm dying to see what riot does with Shen. Bit of advice from a shen main, unlike fiora who can negate tons of burst damage in a short window. I'd like to see shen have strenthened defenses against high sustain damage, utility to withstand the arsenal of a melee or range carry, this would stregthen both Top and Support Shen laning. Just like how fiora is suppose to hit weakspots to gain increased damage i'd also like to see shen follow some sort of requisite. This probably will allow shen a bit more damage with the burden of his Ult keeping his kit from being strong.

43 Comments

RiotMeddlerJul 22, 20158 votes

In terms of gameplay changes, probably around Gangplank level (substantial modifications to about half his kit, some skills very similar however).

In terms of visual changes, still figuring that out. Some visual effects changes to support spells certainly, and potentially a model update, won't be a full overhaul on the level of Gangplank or Tristana though.

TehNACHOJul 22, 20153 votes

I REALLY like Shen's splash right now. That beautiful teleportation art is really just wonderful.

Assuming he keeps Stand United since it's a rather iconic skill, can I just put in that if Shen gets any update on his visuals, his splash is already really on par with other recent splash arts and really just looks great?

RiotMeddlerJul 22, 20157 votes

Odds are very high Stand United will remain his ult (might make some minor adjustments, but no fundamental changes).

As far as the splash goes I'm no splash artist, but I'd expect the biggest thing driving whether or not we opt for a new splash will be what sort of changes we do or don't make to his model. We've been talking recently about whether we should make Shen look a bit tankier, so his gameplay and theme/appearance line up a bit better. If we decided to do that and made noticeable model changes we might then go for new splash art to match. Discussion's still really early on what those possible changes might look like, could be small (bit of extra armor in the form of forearm guards or something similar) to much larger (more substantial amounts of armor while still matching his theme, significant adjustments to his physical build etc).

ItemsGuyJul 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Odds are very high Stand United will remain his ult (might make some minor adjustments, but no fundamental changes).

As far as the splash goes I'm no splash artist, but I'd expect the biggest thing driving whether or not we opt for a new splash will be what sort of changes we do or don't make to his model. We've been talking recently about whether we should make Shen look a bit tankier, so his gameplay and theme/appearance line up a bit better. If we decided to do that and made noticeable model changes we might then go for new splash art to match. Discussion's still really early on what those possible changes might look like, could be small (bit of extra armor in the form of forearm guards or something similar) to much larger (more substantial amounts of armor while still matching his theme, significant adjustments to his physical build etc).

Why does Shen, a ninja, teleport across the map to save my butt?

Why does Shen, a ninja, taunt people into attacking him?

Why does Shen, a ninja, throw swords at people that heal his allies?

Please consider these three main inquiries going into this rework. "It's a video game and people are accustomed to Shen not making sense" isn't a great justification.

TulareJul 22, 20159 votes

It's because he's actually just a junior ninja. The guys in the pajamas with the glitz and flash are just a distraction. The real assassin looks like a chef or a valet and he's been a faithful servant in the target's house for years. Guys like Shen and Kennen, they leave a scrap of fabric in the hallway, maybe knock a guard unconscious, open up a couple of windows, and let themselves be seen slipping away into the night. The next morning, the lord of the manor is found dead and everybody's like, "It must have been that ninja that infiltrated the house last night!"

ItemsGuyJul 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's because he's actually just a junior ninja. The guys in the pajamas with the glitz and flash are just a distraction. The real assassin looks like a chef or a valet and he's been a faithful servant in the target's house for years. Guys like Shen and Kennen, they leave a scrap of fabric in the hallway, maybe knock a guard unconscious, open up a couple of windows, and let themselves be seen slipping away into the night. The next morning, the lord of the manor is found dead and everybody's like, "It must have been that ninja that infiltrated the house last night!"

Hmm, a chef or valet ninja? That's something I could get behind.

RedEcksSep 30, 20151 votes

OMG Yes, yes, yes!

ninjaIRL Sep 30, 20151 votes

He was founded upon the idea of breaking stereotypes. I think his kit and theme are amazing he works so well together with the body guard playstyle.

Ninjas were used as bodyguards as well as assassins.

Also, original ninjas were farmers tired of the authorities iron grip.

WarWorkJul 22, 20151 votes

Will you be making Shen more ninja-y? As it stands now Shen is as much a ninja as Gangplank :/.

Could you use something like a ninja summoned spirit to explain his tankyness

Earl EulrichJul 22, 20152 votes

Odds are very high Stand United will remain his ult (might make some minor adjustments, but no fundamental changes).

If you don´t plan to shift power from the ult to the rest of his kit...why bother reworking at all?

ExecutorDillJul 22, 20151 votes

Ohh good one. Some of the strongest champs are champs that have strong basic abilities. That's why they are so many sleeper op's. A strong ult stands out way more that strong basics and is more prone to nerfs. Take Ekko's ult moving from 0 to 100 mana cost.

Shen derserves a much stronger basic kit to be more of a threat because no one build ap on him in competitive play and his damage and defenses are low impact.

NullDragonJul 22, 20153 votes

Any hints on what his kit might look like? Kinda interested to see how you execute a ninja tank, and how you make a tank feel more dodgy/swordy/ninjay.

ErockandrollJul 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Odds are very high Stand United will remain his ult (might make some minor adjustments, but no fundamental changes).

As far as the splash goes I'm no splash artist, but I'd expect the biggest thing driving whether or not we opt for a new splash will be what sort of changes we do or don't make to his model. We've been talking recently about whether we should make Shen look a bit tankier, so his gameplay and theme/appearance line up a bit better. If we decided to do that and made noticeable model changes we might then go for new splash art to match. Discussion's still really early on what those possible changes might look like, could be small (bit of extra armor in the form of forearm guards or something similar) to much larger (more substantial amounts of armor while still matching his theme, significant adjustments to his physical build etc).

I imagine that he should look fit, but not buff. If we're going for preventing damage, rather than soaking it up. (which I thought was behind the idea for a ninja tank.) That would be more a feet of finesse, rather than bulk or strength.

ExecutorDillJul 22, 20151 votes

I totally agree. He should look trim not ripped. As for gameplay i really wanna see Block/Dodge mechanics implemented on a Tahm Kench level negation. 4 Bruisers who have damage negation:

JarvanIV Meat Shield Garen Damage Reduction Pantheon Block Jax Dodge

If these traits are part of a fighters kit, shouldn't a tank's form of negation be stronger? So why the frick can all of them negate more damage than shen?

ExecutorDillJul 22, 20151 votes

In tanks we have: A strong Meat Shield TahmKench A strong damage reducer Braum Dodge Tank (blank) Block Tank (blank)

[Edit] Personally I'd like to see shen fill both the niche of Dodge and Block.

RedEcksSep 30, 20151 votes

W - Dodge for xx seconds, kinda like Teemos blind has a set duration or have it dodge basic attacks like Jax, It'd be a good follow up for shadow dash since champs can only use basics.

GreenLoreJul 22, 20151 votes

Are there any plans to differentiate the Kinkou trio a bit more as a whole?I mean they are basically the Ninja dude,the ninja girl and the ninja yordle.

I mean most champs try to fill unique fantasys,but Shen and Akali are both pretty much just ninjas(thematically),Kennen at least has the whole electricity deal going on and Zed has the whole living shadow thing/shredder vibe to differentiate them.

ExecutorDillAug 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Odds are very high Stand United will remain his ult (might make some minor adjustments, but no fundamental changes).

As far as the splash goes I'm no splash artist, but I'd expect the biggest thing driving whether or not we opt for a new splash will be what sort of changes we do or don't make to his model. We've been talking recently about whether we should make Shen look a bit tankier, so his gameplay and theme/appearance line up a bit better. If we decided to do that and made noticeable model changes we might then go for new splash art to match. Discussion's still really early on what those possible changes might look like, could be small (bit of extra armor in the form of forearm guards or something similar) to much larger (more substantial amounts of armor while still matching his theme, significant adjustments to his physical build etc).

Don't show his skin in model please, this isn't MK. Concealmemt is a trait of ninjas, luckily it's not that far off the Tank gene pool once it's for a good cause. { cloth, leather, micro-fiber,spandex} and various metals.

RedEcksSep 30, 20151 votes

...a scarf, preferably red

ninjaIRL Sep 30, 20151 votes

Completely unrelated.

Would you ever consider reworking Shen into a binary champion like an AD path = AD Assassin or AP/Health path = Tanky/Utility? Designed to not be both because that would be broken.

Fulfils the want for certain players to be a ninja if they want to follow that path, whilst keeping the traditional tank Shen play style for those who want to build that way.

Dextix LTJul 22, 20151 votes

Just dont fck it up, ok? Dont make his kit overloaded and bloated like for example ekkos.

ExecutorDillJul 22, 20151 votes

If there is anyone who deserves an overloaded kit it's a slow ninja, with short range, low damage, only one CC, has inconvenient scalings basic abilities and to top it all off a no damage ultimate. Also his wackass shield and sustain... He's no Tahm Kench! Ok his sustain isn't that bad but that shield is!

TheLastBaron88Jul 22, 20154 votes

Seeing what you did with the Fiora rework, I think I'd rather you just left Shen alone while he's still remotely playable. I feel comfortable in saying that anyone who enjoys Shen probably feels the same way.

ExecutorDillJul 22, 20152 votes

Fiora rework is great, the weakspot minigame looks fun and very thematic and finally no more me against fiora battle thinking "I'm winning :D" then she just ults and run away. No more ulting me under my tower when i'm low on health while walking away only taking 1-2 tower shots after the ult has finished she is untargetable while ulting :/

TheLastBaron88Jul 22, 20151 votes

The fact that you have to explain the benefits of this change from the perspective of someone playing AGAINST Fiora rather than AS her, is pretty telling imo. Man I sure do hate when champions punish me for making bad decisions.

ExecutorDillJul 22, 20151 votes

The benefits.... Hmmm. Well no one can say, "Fiora's broken!" "Nerf Fiora!" lol jk. You'll see the benefits in her otherabilities like increase sustain on passive, stronger negation,bunch off CC and better outplay potential on Q and W.

TheLastBaron88Jul 23, 20151 votes

People will always say everything is broken and nerf everything. People suck and that's just what they do. Ugh that's just it tho. Sustain and cc are TANK attributes, and anyone who played Fiora top did so because they DIDN'T want to play a tank or a bruiser. In fact she is so squishy and easy to gank, and so worthless when behind, that it was always a big risk to play her at all. But that's why it was fun. Because it was a big gamble on whether you could carry or not. Like all the fun of a Mejai's rolled up into a champion.

Essentially the rework looks to be taking away the feeling of playing from behind, and also taking away your ability to one man hypercarry when you manage to pull yourself ahead.

Plus I cannot stress enough how anti-synergistic her E is with crit chance. No matter your crit chance, the first hit will never crit, and the second hit always will. The only crit item even worth picking up is maybe IE, but even then it's only for the crit damage, not crit chance itself.

It's going to basically boil down to building BotRK, BT, maybe an IE, and then just tank items. And then she'll just be a tank who does damage, and just grinds her enemies down. The very antithesis of a skilled duelist champion. I dunno, either way I hate it and it looks horrible, both in terms of gameplay and theme.

ExecutorDillJul 24, 20151 votes

If you want to take a risk by playing squishy bursty champs in top lane take Zed or Fizz. Either way you look at is she is a fighter always has been, always will be but her ult didn't increase her dueling power or give a bit of burst; the old Fiora ult totally assassinated people while making her untargetable... that is a trait of an assassin Zed

Fighters share a mix of damage whether burst or dps amplifier and defensive utility/CC. They are like the baby of Tanks and Assasins. Take Yasuo for instance, Defensive utility 2 shields, CC Knock UP. Fiora has situational stun, slow, self and team heal damage negation.

TheLastBaron88Jul 24, 20151 votes

Actually assassins deal damage primarily through abilities, which gives them a burst pattern, whereas fighters have a sustained damage pattern that consists almost entirely of autoattacks and are tankier in order to do so. Plus they usually have cc in their kit in order to lend utility to their team.

Live Fiora doesn't fit either of those categories due to her squishy zero-cc nature and lack of real damaging abilities. Her ult, while it does deal ok damage, is mostly useful for the untargetability and lifesteal, not the damage itself. Also, she has no inherent tank stats or abilities, nor does she typically build any. To further illustrate the difference between Fiora and a "fighter", fighters don't typically build crit. I consider Irelia to be the quintessential example of what a fighter looks like.

Yasuo is an odd champion who plays essentially like an assassin as well, but once again, since he is an inherently squishy champion, I would contend that Yasuo, Fiora, and Tryndamere all occupy the same space; that being the Melee ADC, which has traditionally never really fit into League's meta. Yasuo works because of his extreme mobility and ability to one-combo enemies, like an assassin.

What irks me the most is not only are they taking that away from her because of crybabies who can't deal with aggressive early lanes, but they are completely missing out on the chance to make her a fun, mechanically complex champion in favor of just dumping in easy true damage stats and a thematically out of place AoE heal. Which Janna is definitely better for anyway. Calling it now, you're going to see SO much tank fiora where people just build tank stats and cdr for the constant cc and true damage.

The direction they were talking about taking her months ago was SO much better, in every conceivable way. I'm willing to bet they gave up on it because it was too hard for those slackers to code.

ExecutorDillAug 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Actually assassins deal damage primarily through abilities, which gives them a burst pattern, whereas fighters have a sustained damage pattern that consists almost entirely of autoattacks and are tankier in order to do so. Plus they usually have cc in their kit in order to lend utility to their team.

Live Fiora doesn't fit either of those categories due to her squishy zero-cc nature and lack of real damaging abilities. Her ult, while it does deal ok damage, is mostly useful for the untargetability and lifesteal, not the damage itself. Also, she has no inherent tank stats or abilities, nor does she typically build any. To further illustrate the difference between Fiora and a "fighter", fighters don't typically build crit. I consider Irelia to be the quintessential example of what a fighter looks like.

Yasuo is an odd champion who plays essentially like an assassin as well, but once again, since he is an inherently squishy champion, I would contend that Yasuo, Fiora, and Tryndamere all occupy the same space; that being the Melee ADC, which has traditionally never really fit into League's meta. Yasuo works because of his extreme mobility and ability to one-combo enemies, like an assassin.

What irks me the most is not only are they taking that away from her because of crybabies who can't deal with aggressive early lanes, but they are completely missing out on the chance to make her a fun, mechanically complex champion in favor of just dumping in easy true damage stats and a thematically out of place AoE heal. Which Janna is definitely better for anyway. Calling it now, you're going to see SO much tank fiora where people just build tank stats and cdr for the constant cc and true damage.

The direction they were talking about taking her months ago was SO much better, in every conceivable way. I'm willing to bet they gave up on it because it was too hard for those slackers to code.

The only thing I liked what they were talking about months ago that I thought she would have is a step back disengage to follow up after her lunge then engage again. Would make 1v1 fun, but I am not so sure about team play.

Her reworked Q's cioldown is reduced be 60% when it hits the target so when it's up you can decide whether you want to go in again or withdraw with your next Q seeing now that it is skill shot oriented instead of lock on target. This gives her tremendous play making potential, her old Q didn't have like dodge skill shot.. Hit weakspot or just dash thow walls :D Making the wait on Q longer if not use on enemy. I also find the weak spot minigame fun and thematic.

SquishyArchonJul 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

In terms of gameplay changes, probably around Gangplank level (substantial modifications to about half his kit, some skills very similar however).

In terms of visual changes, still figuring that out. Some visual effects changes to support spells certainly, and potentially a model update, won't be a full overhaul on the level of Gangplank or Tristana though.

Gangplank got half of his kit changed lol ok? He has a new E and you just added some cute little coins to his ult. Cute though how you try to make it sound so much more than it is.

BlackquillJul 22, 20151 votes

You forgot the new passive.

ExecutorDillJul 22, 20151 votes

Isn't that far off from the old one. Replace slow for burst mov spd, some number changes, Fire visuals instead of Grog and wala!

NeameanJul 22, 20151 votes

Is it possible that he might get the same treatment as Heimerdinger or Kassadin where they got their kit change first along with some VFX update go along with it and then later receive their model update.

ExecutorDillAug 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

In terms of gameplay changes, probably around Gangplank level (substantial modifications to about half his kit, some skills very similar however).

In terms of visual changes, still figuring that out. Some visual effects changes to support spells certainly, and potentially a model update, won't be a full overhaul on the level of Gangplank or Tristana though.

I'll just leave my rework concept here... Feel free to look: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/qx2d5dwT-shen-gameplay-update-you-meddler

Offícer BootyJul 22, 20154 votes

Please don't take away his muscle shirt.

ForgottenLuckJul 22, 20151 votes

As long as his ult stays the same and he get's better taunts and jokes I'm down with it (not saying they are bad just don't make sense on him), by the way anyone know why all his jokes have to do with speed and being the fastest?

Ranger AzerethJul 22, 20151 votes

The fiora skills updates were needed.....as much as I enjoyed playing her she was somewhat hard to negate her play style. I love shen and as long as taunt and stand united are still there in there core concepts I'm interested to see how they might make some adjustments.