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Talon Rework Is Worrisome

Stephenizgod··19 votes·5,240 views

I don't play Talon, but my friend does, Talon is his favorite champion. The reason I care about the Talon rework is because I understand how it feels for your mains to be reworked into something you don't like. I use to main Morderkaiser and Garen before their reworks, Mordekaiser... self-explanatory... Garen i just didn't really like the Villain mechanic specially since it came at the cost of his laning strength. I use to main Sion too before his rework, I do not like new Sion as much, but honestly old Sion was terrible design and the new Sion is much better in that regard. Soraka was also one of my mains, she was a dumb champion before her rework and she still is a dumb champion, so not much to say on the matter. Malzahar was my true main though, I really just don't like his new kit tbh and he is the change I will be focusing on while i describe why I am worried for my friend.

So why am I worried? Well so far every champion that I liked playing that has been reworked has not lived up to my expectations. My biggest issue is with Malzahar, the rework addressed none of his real issues and only added new ones. The issues with old Malzahar was that he pushed relentlessly with nothing that could be done by the enemy, he had a point click suppress where the only counter-play was rushing QSS or not being near him, and his damage was incredibly high once he hit 6.
What did the rework address? Honestly the only thing the rework did was move all of his early game damage to his late game damage.

  • He still pushes relentlessly, but now you can't even gank him thanks to his passive (which was nerfed super hard and now all he has is his late game damage and point click suppress, however I am talking pre-nerfs).

  • He still has a point click suppress with the only counter-play being QSS or not being near him.

  • His early game damage is gone, but now its all in his late game and its just as difficult to deal with since it doesn't require him to be risky (which was the issue with his early game damage pre-rework, very little risk).

Honestly all the rework did was make Malzahar way too strong at things he wasn't suppose to be strong at, until he was nerfed almost out of viability. The reason he is still "strong" is because it takes people a long time to adapt, they haven't yet fully learned how to punish him for overextending. His passive is no longer a factor, AA it then CC him, by the time your abilities hit him, he will be vulnerable to them.

The individual ideas behind his abilities were pretty cool, but that is all really, they didn't solve his issues they only created more. Also his identity was changed to a more push oriented champion who takes objectives easily, I think most people were more looking for a Voidling DoT Mage identity.

That is what I am worried about for Talon, his issues will not be solved or his kit will create entirely new issues that are worse than the old ones. Major issue with Talon is how his kit can be hard to deal with. Point click blink which guarantees him an AA and his Q at the very least. His W is more up to him to miss rather than you to dodge and his ult deals free damage as long as you are in range of it. Not saying its impossible to play against him only that part of the reason you have so little time to react is because his damage is pretty much guaranteed on his target as long as he pulls off the combo correctly. This is what makes Talon strong though, how reliable it is for him to be able to assassinate at least 1 target. However on the flip side, it is very easy for Talon to fall behind because even though his damage is guaranteed it is predictable. You know where he will end up and most likely who he will go on, so it makes it easy for his targets allies to stop him once he engages. It is not really up to the target to outplay Talon and vice versa but Talon needs to outplay his targets allies and the same for them.

This is very unique to Talon, since his kit is so binary, it means the better you are at reading your target and their allies, the better you do. If they allies can read you though, you will not be successful. The other assassins have many different tools that make it difficult to predict what they will do, they have more than one way to get to their target or have the ability to choose a different target once they go in or to escape if need be. For Talon he needs to go in with a plan on what exactly he will do or he will be killed easily or just lose his ult for free. This is Talon, he pays for his extreme burst with the predictability in his kit. To me I think Talon should remain like this, I agree that his burst should not be so quick because as it is, its a little bit more in his favor. Still, i really hope this unique trait of Talon's kit where the play is not so much between him and his target, but between him and his target's allies, is reinforced and made more apparent.

51 Comments

Sightless663 votes

this unique trait of Talon's kit where the play is not so much between him and his target, but between him and his target's allies,

I disagree with preserving this part of his kit, and the reason why is because he isn't really any more vulnerable to being stopped by his target's allies than any other assassin is. If we look at assassins like Rengar, Zed, Kha'Zix, or whoever else, the main way they are stopped is by being peeled off of the target. It's pretty characteristic of assassins to be shut down more by the full enemy team than by the target. They're all vulnerable to this, and it can hurt all of them. They all have to make engagement plans to avoid it. The target has some interaction with the assassin, but their allies have much more interaction with the assassin.

The problem is, Talon's uniqueness here doesn't come from any increased counterplay given to his target's allies. He's not any more vulnerable to being stopped by skilled supports than other assassins are (a Janna ult will stop a Rengar or Zed just as effectively as it will stop a Talon). It's just decreased counterplay that his target has. That by itself is not worth preserving. It's not really worth keeping.

The best case scenario would be where Talon has more options for responding to the enemy when they don't let him have a good opening, but where they have more options for responding to him when he does. Reduce the reliability and give increased situational power. Give him a strength outside of "my target can not realistically respond to what I'm doing in any meaningful way". That's not a niche we need.

Stephenizgod1 votes

I guess this is just a difference of opinion? To me I feel like Rengar and Zed have more tools to get to their target or to be a threat to multiple targets before using all their abilities. You also need to peel them in different ways, Zed obviously goes untargetable and is capable of going in and out of a fight without much risk if he so chooses. Rengar is a bit more similar to Talon except that Rengar has the CC to either stop his target or his target's allies before going in. He is also has higher survivability with his CC and heal, their ults are similarly countered though. Kha'zix does not worry so much about allies as he goes for isolated targets on the outskirts of a teamfight. He can go invisible multiple times plus his mobility make it hard to track exactly who he will be going for.

What I meant is that it is very obvious who Talon will go for because his kit is so binary. Once he E's to a target he is committed to the kill because now he is in an immense amount of danger (assuming he is not 20/0 lol). You know exactly what he is going to do and how he will do it because of the way his kit is designed. Once you figure out who he will jump on, it is up to you to outplay him or he to outplay you because once he jumps on them, he needs to commit. Most other assassins have the ability to change their play once it is in motion. They pay for that with less burst than Talon.

Sightless662 votes

I guess this is just a difference of opinion?

In a sense. I think the game is best when you maximize choices. Talon has very few gameplay choices and allows his opponents very few gameplay choices, and imposes no unique choices on either himself or on his opponents, so he's poorly designed. I think he's the worst-designed assassin in the game. It makes him ungodly boring to play against, and frankly, it makes him very boring to play as and against for most people (which is represented in him having a low playrate at all times except when he's blatantly overpowered, and in his banrate jumping up ungodly fast whenever he even puts a toe inside the meta).

I also don't think Talon is different from other assassins in nearly as many ways as you claim. It boils down to one thing: Talon gives you as few options to respond to him as possible. He has no unique counterplay. He only has very generic assassin counterplay, because unlike other assassins, there is no response to his actual mechanics. He pays for this by having fewer options himself. He can't respond to his enemies, because he gives them no options for responding to him. It's boring.

Everything about Talon screams frustration for everyone involved. Talon players are frustrated because they have few plays to pick off aware targets and because they can't avoid death after assassination. Talon's targets are frustrated at the near-complete lack of options against him if their frontline isn't on point.

They pay for that with less burst than Talon.

They do not pay with less burst. They pay with less reliability. They can burst just as hard or even harder than Talon. They get more potential payoff at the cost of not having a complete guarantee. Everything they do can be better than Talon in their ideal situation, but because their ideal situation can actually be mitigated, they might end up with more or less depending on how well they play and how well their opponents play. That is good design. It's what we want out of kits. Talon should go much further in this direction.

To me I feel like Rengar and Zed have more tools to get to their target or to be a threat to multiple targets before using all their abilities.

Rengar can be a threat to multiple targets before using his abilities? I have to call that just completely wrong. Even Zed doesn't want to burn abilities before picking a target to go in on. No assassin really does.

Rengar is a bit more similar to Talon except that Rengar has the CC to either stop his target or his target's allies before going in. He is also has higher survivability with his CC and heal,

Him having CC is not a very large functional difference. They still have an incredibly similar gameplay pattern. They both jump an enemy target, both completely ignore that target's allies in favor of hitting the target's allies (if a rengar ever uses an E on somoene he does not want to kill, he is bad, end of story), and both are set up to give the target no chance to respond. Rengar has a slightly better design than Talon because he at least is forced into giving a warning period before going for a no-counterplay instagib.

Of course, Rengar is poorly designed too, and that's why he's been such a common recipient of rework (and has been confirmed to be getting another at some point in the future, which will likely be in this assassin rework)

Kha'zix does not worry so much about allies as he goes for isolated targets on the outskirts of a teamfight. He can go invisible multiple times plus his mobility make it hard to track exactly who he will be going for.

It's not just isolated targets. It's isolated squishies. It's just like what Talon or any other assassin wants to go for. Kha'zix doesn't want to go hitting an isolated tank or bruiser in a teamfight any more than Talon does.

It's very easy to tell who Kha'zix wants to kill. It's just not always as easy to tell how he's going to do it. That's a good thing. It's what we want. Flexibility in gameplay forces players to actually react to each other at all points throughout a fight, instead of just at the start of it. Once you're actually in a fight with Talon, you barely have to react to him at all. Everything is guaranteed, so what is there to respond to?

What I meant is that it is very obvious who Talon will go for because his kit is so binary.

It's very obvious who every assassin will go for. Talon isn't unique in this regard. He'll go for the highest-value squishy target that is in his range. I can say the same of pretty much any other dedicated assassin.

Talon's uniqueness is that he doesn't have any options for forcing the issue. Either there is an opening good enough, in which case Talon WILL obliterate the enemy before they can respond, or there isn't, in which case he will die before hitting his target. Because he has no flexibility, he can't give the opponents either. Talon players don't have good options for outplaying the enemy to try and earn a hard kill, and Talon's opponents don't have an option for outplaying him once he's within flash E range. Everyone loses.

So, yes, he is binary. That is a flaw. It is a problem. It makes him the single worst-designed assassin in the game.

Once you figure out who he will jump on, it is up to you to outplay him or he to outplay you

Outplay is a such a terrible word for this. The only "outplay" to this is for the target to stand far away from Talon. That works against literally every assassin. You don't do anything unique against Talon. You don't have to make any special decisions. You just stay away from where he is, and if you failed to do that, you're fucked. The "outplay" ends there.

Every other assassin has better outplay potential than Talon, and they all have more options for being outplayed as a result. They are high in counterplay. He is low in counterplay. That's poor design. Being poorly designed shouldn't be his only claim to fame, but right now, that is the main thing that defines him. He can have more.

Stephenizgod1 votes

like i said, we have two very different opinions on how the champion works and this is because we have two very different experiences with Talon. I don't think either of us can say the other is wrong or right in this matter because all of your points i can counter and the same for you with my points. Lets just agree to disagree here.

WolfChases2 votes

Rengar main here! What do I have to say? xD xD xD I am playing to the picture of my house saint and Cross and hope that Rengar will remain jungler at least after the rework. :D

Stephenizgod1 votes

Being a jungler fits Rengar a lot more than being a laner, i too hope he stays that way but personally think he is in need of a rework.

WolfChases1 votes

Exactly, his entire theme is about HUNT. I simply do not see him at the lane. When I made a thread about it, Meddler who works on Assassins rework told me that they are not planning to move any of them somewhere else, at least according to the direction they took towards the changes. So I really hope they won't change their mind.

Avienal2 votes

{quoted}

Exactly, his entire theme is about HUNT. I simply do not see him at the lane. When I made a thread about it, Meddler who works on Assassins rework told me that they are not planning to move any of them somewhere else, at least according to the direction they took towards the changes. So I really hope they won't change their mind.

Exactly at how i agree on that, you have Assassins who thrive in the jungle and would be out of place otherwise, some that are more of the up front mid lane and then the ones who screw around in top lane where you mostly see fighter or tank type of champions. Then you got 'Assassins's like Jhin who break that idea of a Assassin needs to be able to free disengage thru some cheesie escape or screwball escape and instead takes the 'Sniper' Assassin style instead. Which sadly i can't say for other particular Assassins like Vayne who basically shats on others with its tank mauling kit, wall stun and Q which becomes a stealth tumble thanks to the ultimate.

WolfChases1 votes

Jhin is not an assassin, he's an ADC....Wait........ADC's crit like hell and kill you in 3 AA's late game...Damn you are right sir.

BoneProf2 votes

Yeah the majority of reworks have been felt rushed/clunky/and in a worse state than before :(

Stephenizgod1 votes

My biggest gripe is that they only have so much resources they can put towards one champion, so once that is done and they can no longer spend any time on the champion they are forced to either nerf them into the ground until they can slowly build them back up over dozens of patches, or they are left in their current broken state for weeks at a time. I would think they would build a kit they can easily tweak and change and have back-up changes already in place weeks in advance so that people who enjoy those champions are not shit out of luck.

Shaydrox1 votes

Looking at the Talon direction thread (which I will link below), he's going to get a new form of mobility. This one will be way more flexible. "Yes we will be removing the blink. Unfortunately, you'll have to wait and see what it is replaced with." "It's something old with a new twist, a significant new twist."

With his mobility being way more flexible it'll be easier for him to outplay his targets, and his targets will have some breathing room from the typical E AA Q which is so instant and impossible to dodge. His passive is also getting completely removed and reworked, his Q probably too. His W and R are going to remain largely the same, so that uniqueness will still be there.

Honestly I'm pretty hyped about his rework myself.

Source: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/EjFNREfn-assassin-roster-update-talon-direction

Avienal1 votes

{quoted}

Looking at the Talon direction thread (which I will link below), he's going to get a new form of mobility. This one will be way more flexible. "Yes we will be removing the blink. Unfortunately, you'll have to wait and see what it is replaced with." "It's something old with a new twist, a significant new twist."

With his mobility being way more flexible it'll be easier for him to outplay his targets, and his targets will have some breathing room from the typical E AA Q which is so instant and impossible to dodge. His passive is also getting completely removed and reworked, his Q probably too. His W and R are going to remain largely the same, so that uniqueness will still be there.

Honestly I'm pretty hyped about his rework myself.

Source: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/EjFNREfn-assassin-roster-update-talon-direction

I have to agree on this, one critical issue with 'assassin' type champions is i sometimes see too much of a gag of being able to just teleport or easily gap close jump on top of a target and ham them. Sometimes even having the ability to stealth or invincible themselves out of danger with ease, which sometimes gives a feeling that they can magically be invincible to damage even while stealth. Reason i sometimes feel like Stealth needs to have a added gag where if you get hit by any damage while stealthed, you will be knocked out of it since it makes sense. It would definitely make all the stealth champions think twice of just easily walking away and have to properly plan where they run to when they make use of stealth measures, having the little ! icon for rengar and Evelynn is nice atleast to know you they are nearby, but it feels pointless if you hit them with an attack, but they are still stealthed so you have no idea if you actually hit them sides maybe less some champion abilities who might have a particle effect to show you 'hit' something, such as them being in a bush.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Stephenizgod1 votes

I am not so fond of making Talon the Roaming Assassin, that is more Katarina's deal than Talon's. All assassins roam, they want to maximize their gold income and they can't do that if they sit around waiting for their lane opponent to respawn.

Avienal1 votes

{quoted}

I am not so fond of making Talon the Roaming Assassin, that is more Katarina's deal than Talon's. All assassins roam, they want to maximize their gold income and they can't do that if they sit around waiting for their lane opponent to respawn.

Katarina is more of a kill spree type of cheese champion, then roaming mobile i would say. The only reason i could really see she would be strong in the 'roam' department, is cause her kit being a mana'less ap champion type makes it extremely easy for her to build items like luden's echo(for that strong % movement speed bonus) early on and ignore the typical mana necessary items that can become mandatory on a few 'assassin' champions to allow the ability for escaping when they have to spam the stealth or escape move several times and not be forced to back every time they do about 1 or 2 kills, because they nearly have no mana left to barely escape(if it wasnt for the 5% missing recovery mastery, blue buff or water dragon effects to get that gag hashed out a bit).

Shaydrox1 votes

Riot said he'll be able to kill his lane opponent 1v1 if he plays things well. Just knowing that makes me feel better, as his current laning phase is utter garbage vs anyone who has half a braincell. I'm not sure how much power he's gonna get in his roaming playstyle but as long as his kit becomes more fun to play with in general I'm going to be happy, the W and R not being changed too much and his E becoming more flexible sounds like a great idea for me.

Stephenizgod1 votes

I am mostly worried because of what they have done to every champion I played that was reworked, I basically no longer play them because they changed what I liked into something I don't like. I am hoping they don't make that mistake with Talon, keep what is truly unique and fun about him and change what is not unique and fun.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

but don't worry op, apparently talon is "the roaming champ" and his aoe damage is the problem.

Stephenizgod4 votes

I don't believe making Talon the roaming champ is a good idea, doesn't that fit Katarina more than Talon? The first thing you think of when you see Katarina is "don't let her roam", you don't really feel that with Talon.

Sona x Rubick2 votes

talon has nothing to pass walls, like fizz, leblanc, katarina, or zed. he just build mobility boot and for riot this makes him the best roaming champ in league, while fizz is literally the best ganker with his mobility and cc, and can pass through walls AS WELL AS HAVING A WAVE CLEAR AT LVL 7.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Yea i think Talon would be better suited as the Quintessential Assassin, he is the perfect example of what an assassin should do and roughly how they should do it.

Abyssphere1 votes

How do they base a kit around "quintessential assassin", exactly?

Stephenizgod1 votes

What does an assassin do and what are their tools? Well they go in and murder their target with burst, mobility, and invisibility. Build a kit around those instead of a kit around him roaming around and being super mobile. Talon goes in murders his opponent then runs away. All they need to do is retain that but give his opponents more time to react to him as well as reduce his AoE damage because he should only be killing his target not everyone around his target as well, boom they keep the Quintessential Assassin feel of Talon and give him counterplay.

Abyssphere1 votes

And why don't you think he can have all of the things an assassin does while having his own unique niche? They're not gonna remove the basic tools that let him kill people, or his roaming strength would be pointless in the first place.

You seem to be actively stating that they should maintain Talon being "the boring assassin" with nothing to him except going in and killing someone, which is just bizarre. Why should anyone's niche be "The assassin with nothing interesting about them"? Does your Talon-playing friend really value not having anything to think about utilising properly when playing him?

"The assassin without a niche" or if you want to be harsher, "The generic assassin" ("The quintessential assassin" is just an attempt to romanticise this concept) will never be a valid niche for a champion. Every champion needs a way to differentiate themselves from others in their class and "He's simpler" isn't an adequate way for Talon to differentiate himself.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Haha well your entire argument is based on your opinion of Talon, I disagree with your opinion. Just because you see his kit as boring, doesn't mean everyone does, Riot doesn't seem to think his kit is boring, there just isn't enough counterplay. You have not seen what a truly skilled Talon can do, it is far from boring, it is amazing.

No not every champion needs a niche, in fact that thought process is exactly why 90% of the reworks are complete failures. Riot is trying to give them an identity but what ends up happening is they outshine other champions in that role and are considered too OP, so they nerf them to the point they can no longer compete with other champions unless they are given the exact situation required to be good, or in other words they are basically trash in most situations.

Let a champion fall into its own niche and role, don't force them into one. Talon is not the roaming assassin just because he buys Mobi Boots and goes to other lanes, every freakin assassin roams to other lanes. You are a bad assassin if you don't roam to other lanes. Separate Talon from other assassins by what makes him actually different, to me Talon is different because he has no niche. Like a true assassin he adopts the style he needs to assassinate his targets.

Chaotic Reks1 votes

Quintessential Assassin

cough Khazix

zeyo1 votes

Thats one of the main Problems of Talon just because you would take mobility boots on Talon doesn´t mean you have to give him a spell that doesnt even make the roaming faster and is completly useless in Teamfights and late game. I don´t get why Riot has to make every asassin slower it adds to much counterplay in many cases and is no fun to play either

Troll for Trump1 votes

Talon should be more like an Assassin's Creed type in my opinion, while Katarina is more of a teamfighter; He should be a snowballing champ, focused on killing things all over the map. Problem is that's hard to balance.

zlumpy1 votes

I don't know if anyone wants to be like AC atm. I think Talon likes having his face and not falling through the map.

:P

Rogu3Yoshy1121 votes

Talon is right now just a not as good version of katarina, IMO his snowballing potential is a good point, as unlike katarina and other assassins, he requires more than a kill or two to snowball, ive been 7/0 without the dammage to straight up one shot an ADC, whereas with akali or kat i can do it easily.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Talon is only "better" than AP assassins because itemization for AD assassination is better than that for AP significantly. Talon has better waveclear and itemization. In terms of AD assassins, Zed does it a lot better than Talon.

Rogu3Yoshy1121 votes

As an assassin, and mainly katarina main, IMO Talon is just a less powerful version of katarina.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

If you don't want your main to be reworked into something you don't want, then perhaps you shouldn;t main a champion with a toxic, low counterplay kit. Sorry old Poppy mains, your champs was stupid and the game is better now that she's gone. Not that the new one isn't cancerous too, mind you, but at least she can't turn invulnerable to 4 people.

Stephenizgod1 votes

this is a flawed way of thinking though, none of my mains (except Soraka) were "toxic" and neither is Talon. There were just as many fatal weaknesses in those champions as there were unfair strengths, which is why they were reworked and are being reworked. The issue is with most of those reworks nothing was actually fixed it only created more problems, mostly because Riot is trying to force champions into certain niches. This just creates a situation where they are completely overpowered when in that niche.

Old Poppy had her issues both ways, in being too strong and being too weak in certain areas. New Poppy, again, only addresses some issues but creates entirely new issues that still make her unfun to play against.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

{quoted}

this is a flawed way of thinking though, none of my mains (except Soraka) were "toxic" and neither is Talon. There were just as many fatal weaknesses in those champions as there were unfair strengths

That doesn't matter. What matters is the gameplay involved. Talon is easily the most binary assassin in the game; either he's too weak to kill you and does nothing or is strong enough to kill you and does so instantly with no counterplay other than "stay eternally out of range of his E or use Zhonyas." Poppy's old ult had even less counterplay; Just don't be in range of her when it's up or else your whole team is gonna get fucked. Champs are typically reworked due to a lack of meaningful gameplay, and Talon certainly has a problem with that. Hate to break it to you, but Talon's gameplay pattern of "press button to gap close and instantly delete enemy" has 0 chance of staying. If that's why you play Talon, then you're guaranteed to be disappointed.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

When is the assasins rework patch? November?

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Preseason 7, at the time the adc changes were in preseason 6.

SOLOQSUPERHERO1 votes

The frustrating part of Talon has always been his ability to blow people up with a huge amount of upfront burst and sometimes little to no time to react to it.

His E-Q-W-R combo is very fast, can kill frankly multiple people and gets him out, especially when he is ahead, even just a little bit.

Furthermore, when he's behind he actually can barely find an opportunity to go in because his kit is so 1 directional in how it wants to play with very little safety.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Yea this is why he needed a rework, I am just worried they will ruin him for Talon players like they did Morde and Malzahar for me.

Rain NT1 votes

Malz was a good change imo, fucking broken.. but a good change, it made him viable.

Stephenizgod1 votes

He was viable before for those who played him often, the issue was his point click Suppress left little to no counterplay for his opponents and his relentless pushing made it hard for both his lane opponent and himself to function properly during Laning Phase. Neither of these issues were fixed, instead they made him push even harder and his passive makes it even harder to punish him for ulting someone. So they nerfed his passive and his damage and now he is just a suppress bot who pushes ridiculously hard.

Rain NT1 votes

Yo dont get me wrong, it was a good change but it was cancer as helllll. But most Malz players that I knew like the fact that their champion can finally be in the spot light and can always be played without team thinking its terrible. The Malz change made him viable in competitive which is good, what I think Riot fucked up was not tackling the numbers or giving enough of counter play to the champion. Imo they need to nerf his damage early game and reduce the amount of void spawns he can create early so he doesnt become impossible to overcome, but still strong enough to be a good presence. This way if players have more time to survive til getting QSS they can deal with him a little better because Malz isnt bad late game either with his kit. But imo atm Malz is fine right now, hes still op but not crazy crazy must need ban anymore.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Malz was only viable because of how OP he was, now he is kind of garbage until late game. They did reduce his damage early game, its to the point he can't really kill anyone until he has about 3-4 items. Anyone with half a brain will just run away before his DoT does enough damage to kill them, his ult's damage is super bad early and mid game so you need to rely almost entirely on his Voidlings to kill them, which is difficult until you get Rylai's and a few more big AP items. Seriously the only times I get kills pre-30 minutes is if the enemy is dumb enough to stand there while my Voidlings destroy them.

The issue with New Malz is not numbers but how his kit works, it can't be viable because it is pretty toxic. They didn't fix his mindless pushing, they didn't fix his low counterplay ult, and they added in a broken passive. Malzahar was way healthier before his rework imo and he was fairly viable given the right circumstances.

Rain NT1 votes

I hope they change my main Wukong, atm lacking imo if stacked against the meta champions. And I think his kit is way too simple.... That being said, that is why I like both Garen and Sion rework. Morde... I agree, but everyone agrees.. thats a screw up on another level, they just got lazy on that one. But I hope Talon get changed, his playstyle is really annoying.

You have to look at it this way when he comes to changes. You have to look at it in the eyes on other players, not yours if you main the champion because you will constantly try to defend what you want. But what about others? What about others who gets deleted by him? What about players who think his playstyle is boring and too simple for what he can do. Then you can go between the lines of what is need to be changed between other players and the players who main the champion.

Like for example, Wukong my main. I can see how he is annoying for adc, invis jump in ult and does a lot of damage instantly and can also chase you with his ult to finish you off most of the time, mostly if hes slightly ahead in his lane. I wouldnt mind if they move his power and give more utility or more defensive stats because I know how annoying it would be to just feel like you do anything to survive. have to look at it from the perspective of other players

And A Real Hiero1 votes

Shen would like some company in the unfun garbage bin.

Daemonette1 votes

While it true his burst is gone. As he Q+E combo is no longer there. You can still get good kills. Talon can now help your jungle counter jungle. Specially with poacher dirk. The enemy never expect you to leap over the wall from their tower. Making for a epic gank. I can understand people not liking him cause his burst is weaker. No instant kill from Q+E combo. Thought I am enjoying the new talon rework. Even though he is banned a lot. :(

warpenguin5551 votes

You have some pretty shitty luck i must say. All of your mains get reworked... Have you considered maining Vayne?

Stephenizgod1 votes

I am not that great at ADC's, I tend to play immobile mages or tanks, so my positioning is not tuned correctly for playing ADC. Plus i dislike Vayne very much, its the same reason I don't play Yasuo, i despise him as a champion.

I guess i just like the older more outdated champions because most of the time their kits are clear and understandable. There is no flashy mechanic that requires a paragraph to explain and there is no overtuned abilities that require an immense amount of knowledge to play with or against. Rito doesn't like them though for the very reason I do like them lol

LordGeovanni1 votes

I used Taric and Yorick before their reworks none of them were toxic they just were reworked for being uninteresting to some players. People couldn't even identify where Yoricks strength was so they blamed in on ghouls you could kill in 1 -2 hits at any point of the game and item 3751 or item 3075 and Yorick lose lane and Mid game.

Cleanexx1 votes

Here's what i'll say about Talon's rework as I've experienced it thus far. Early game, it's pretty much impossible to actually get a decent 1v1 off if he decides to go in on you because his blades do so much more damage than they used to it almost feels like you're trying to lane against somebody like J4 with a decent amount of lane poke with his q. When Talon hit's level 2 and gets his q he's not only able to engage on you extremely hard, but if he gets in melee range of you and uses it you're almost always going to have to flash early on. But the real problem is when he hits level 3 because he can then go all in under your tower and most likely die thanks to his new e ability. This also makes the jungler's job on your team infinitely more difficult because he has to constantly know where Talon is so he doesn't ult, hop over a wall, and 100-0 him at 5 minutes into the game. Overall it feels like Talon's ability to roam across the map essentially means that you have to constantly be wary of 4 man ganks or quick rift heralds/dragons. Moreover, when picking against somebody playing Talon, you almost have to take your champion list in mid lane and cut it in half. Any type of really low-mobility champion is going to have little to no chance of beating him in lane and keeping up with his roaming power. His rework is really over-tuned, and they really missed the mark on how his kit should work in my opinion.

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