it's almost as if melees can't lane against ADC is a problem, but shhhhhhhhh i said nothing
Why can't we send ziggs mid and put a melee botlane? for sure it's because our sieging power will suck right? Hehehehe
Weathered6 votesIn a farm centered duo lane why would you want to risk putting a melee bot, it's much easier to farm with an AD ranged.
Ahristocats3 votesNice manipulation friend
currently you CAN'T send a melee botlane, because you will have 5 cs by 5 min
The point is that you have to do CHANGES to make us able to send a melee botlane, why? for ahem, you know, diversity
Randomonium3 votesQuite the opposite actually. Playing against a kill bot lane like Yasuo/Pantheon is absolutely terrifying in the early game as an ADC. The only thing you can do is just try to farm under tower and wait for late game. Those kind of kill lanes usually win lane but as long as the ADC doesn't feed too hard the team with a true marksman will still win because they have better sieging power.
If you don't believe me then check out Doublelift's most recent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g42nXMLUHc
doublelift fg5 votesyou know that jax used to be played botlane?
instantly gutted
and i bet that ziggs won't be gutted for being played bot
Marshbouy3 votesI have yet to see a solution to Marksman out classing melees that isn't "just gut all marksman".
Best Kog NA4 votesEven if there's other solutions the boards hivemind only wants all ADC's to be gutted to the point where they wont be played anymore.
Ahristocats4 votesI think every player that played HON or Dota2 knows how
beside the obvious answer "HU TURN RATE" here is how it works in those games: -creeps have more base AD or as much base AD than ranged champions (who have around 40 AD at lvl 1) in league, creeps have like 10 or 20 AD i don't remember, while ranged champions can begin the game with 70 AD thanks to AD runes and doran blade. In Dota you can't get +8 AD from an item. creeps have also WAY more base movement speed, they rune so fast if you continue to poke someone for a long time you will lose x2 more hp than the poke. In league creeps start with 325 ms while ranged champions have between 325 and 350 ms depending on runes/base ms/if the adc gets tier 1 boots after recalling The combination of all of this makes marksmen able to attack you permanently in lane i can record a game where enemy caitlyn just stood there between minions and continued to poke me as support darius
-Melee also have the option to buy a decent item protecting them, dota2 for example has stout shield which cost 250 gold gives no stat and block a huge amount of damage if you're melee, in league doran shield is a joke and doesn't make you survive against ranged champions
with those 2 changes you already improved by a billion time the match up melee vs ranged in 2v2
Marshbouy3 votesEverything involving creeps would hit melees just as hard. Trading in lane as a melee would be nearly impossible if you had creeps around.
the only thing that could help just a little bit is the dorans item, but the other changes aren't going to work.
Best princess EU2 votestrading as melee is already impossible
this change makes melees able to farm at least
you can also make doran shield able to block damage from minions
Marshbouy2 votesMelee vs Melee trading is pretty possible. With the new creeps you would take considerably more damage from the creeps than you do the enemy champion.
Dorans shield cannot be the "fix all" button.
Ahristocats2 votesenemy melee will also take more damage
Marshbouy1 votesIt won't be worth it. Let's say you go in on an enemy who's oom and running away, you AA them twice but now you have to deal with getting hit 20 times from minions with 40 ad
Ahristocats1 votesfrom my experience in dota2, when it's melee vs melee (for example mid) either you know you're going to kill the enemy and there is no problem (you will still take a lot of damage something like 40% or 50% of your hp)
or you don't and therefore you don't fight
beside, using spells don't trigger the aggro, champions like darius or renekton will be able to bully, but they have to harass before all in
or renekton can use W+Q then E to go out
Marshbouy2 votesusing spells don't trigger the aggro, champions like darius or renekton will be able to bully
wouldn't that just make lane bullies super broken for a long period of time since fighting back would dis-proportionally affect weak early game champion who rely on auto attacking?
Ahristocats1 votesNo it's 50/50
if you dodge their spells by for example fiora W, yasuo shield ect... it will make you survive more since they can't all in you right at the first time, currently it's the case for darius as an example
Hauling Ashe1 votesAnd that is one of several reasons I don't play DOTA2.
WoonStruck2 votesBecause ranged doesn't have a massive advantage over melee that's impossible to overcome at levels 1-3?
Hauling Ashe3 votesCalm down, DOTA fanboy. I wrote that in response to this.
[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LKAfQwlE,comment-id=00010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-01T17:15:21.178+0000)
from my experience in dota2, when it's melee vs melee (for example mid) either you know you're going to kill the enemy and there is no problem (you will still take a lot of damage something like 40% or 50% of your hp)
or you don't and therefore you don't fight
DOTA2 is known for being almost completely point-and-click abilities. I don't like my fights being decided in absolute stat checks.
Also, I beat ranged champs with melee all the time. It just takes some patience. You know, an element of strategy.
WoonStruck1 votesActually, DotA is much more about strategy because there are very few ways to outplay things outside of actives/CC timing.
League is much closer to an action game than a strategy game in most cases.
DotA is much close to a strategy game than an action game in most cases.
Ahristocats2 votesDota is known for being point and click, that doesn't mean everything is point and click
check: invoker
Drow ranger is a hard carry that should care about positioning because if someone gets close to her she will lose 80 agility which is 80 AD+something like 100 armor, and a ton of attack speed, so an 1v1 with drow isn't decided by rightclicking her W is also a delayed AOE silence very hard to place and can be gamechanging
now get out, I DON'T WANT THIS THREAD TO BECOME A DOTA THREAD
Skias1 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LKAfQwlE,comment-id=00010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-01T17:15:21.178+0000)
from my experience in dota2, when it's melee vs melee (for example mid) either you know you're going to kill the enemy and there is no problem (you will still take a lot of damage something like 40% or 50% of your hp)
or you don't and therefore you don't fight
beside, using spells don't trigger the aggro, champions like darius or renekton will be able to bully, but they have to harass before all in
or renekton can use W+Q then E to go out
This seems bad.
WoonStruck3 votesReducing exp penalty for shared exp (melee benefit from levels much more than ranged). In addition, this might push the game towards having more gold stream setups being viable. This variety would make balance much easier because a wider variety of roles could be filled according to how your team and scaling was planned and set up.
Increased benefits for melee or benefits against ranged on more items.
Every ranged ADC not being given MASSIVE steroids+escapes/utility on top of having the massive offensive and defensive benefit of range.
**Creep aggro the moment you input an autoattack against a champion, as opposed to after damage. **
Marshbouy1 votesthat's probably some of the better ways of handling the problem that i've heard. A lot better than most of the "just nerf em till they are needed 50% of the time".
Ahristocats1 votes
- **Creep aggro the moment you input an autoattack against a champion, as opposed to after damage. **
i totally forgot this
vOmvbrawfU2 votes3/5, 7/10, and 11/15 top winrates for top are melee. Yeah, melees have it SO rough.
Ahristocats2 voteswe're talking about melee in botlane, not melee in the game
Big Lincoln2 votesthe problem is XP distribution
currently someone like Darius will be poked to death before level 2 and then zoned hard for the rest of lane
that's the exact reason they gave mord his XP passive to run bot, too
Bronze Bonanza2 votesI don't think creeps need to be superpowered. How about make them not sit there and do nothing while you die? Ranged champions can just poke you over and over with ranged autos and they won't even blink.
TheSequelsRBad1 votesSay that to my Illaoi adc :)
ZephyrDrake1 votesyou do know that there are plenty of melee champions who can lane against ranged champions right? if melees wouldn't be able to do anything against ranged then the only place you would ever see them is in the jungle while ranged champions would just monopolize every single lane in the game
Ahristocats2 votes2nd time i say this, we're talking about melees vs rangeds in botlane aka 2v2 not 1v1
ZephyrDrake2 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LKAfQwlE,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-01-01T19:01:49.789+0000)
2nd time i say this, we're talking about melees vs rangeds in botlane aka 2v2 not 1v1
my point still stands, there are things known as kill lanes in which both champions in bot lane are melees. Those type of lanes work, you just got to try harder. Mordekaiser worked for a little bit and he is a melee champion. Melees are more than happy to fight against ranged champions, it all depends on who are we talking about since most melees would rather have an EXP lead along with a gold lead that they wouldn't be able to get as easily in bot lane
Skias1 votesmy point still stands, there are things known as kill lanes in which both champions in bot lane are melees. Those type of lanes work, you just got to try harder. Mordekaiser worked for a little bit and he is a melee champion. Melees are more than happy to fight against ranged champions, it all depends on who are we talking about since most melees would rather have an EXP lead along with a gold lead that they wouldn't be able to get as easily in bot lane
I mean. I've taken Yi bot with ghost and exhaust as a goof and wrecked bottom. Its definitely not something I'd do in ranked. I think the closest I did to something like that in ranked was Peelbot Udyr support because they had multiple assassins. Won that game pretty easy.