So tanks are getting buffed, but Nautilus is getting gutted further? noice.

Zero Skill Tank·Aug 4, 2018·16 votes·5,441 views

The changes:

Shielding :: 65/70/75/80/85 (+9/11/13/15/17% maxHP) >>> 60/70/80/90/100 (+9/10/11/12/13% maxHP) Duration :: 10 >>> 6 Cooldown :: 18 >>> 12 Cost :: 80 >>> 60

Those are in no way positive changes. Lowering shield amount and duration completely removes his ability to win any lane, and cooldown/mana buff doesn't change that - it's like someone at Riot forgot that his shield is also a damage source, that he uses to waveclear and fight.

Now, I could bet behind additional casts per jungle camp thing, I don't mind jungling with Naut would he be at least close to decent, but that's just bullshit. Naut is NOWHERE close to being a viable jungle at the moment, such a slight buff won't help with that - if it's even a buff at all, because in current meta if you take 12 seconds to clear your camps you could just afk as well. Second, as this "buff" guts his dueling, he won't be able to contest scuttles ever so - not like he can do it now - so picking him in the jungle after this buff will still be on a verge of trolling.

It saddens me because Naut is left to rot for ages now, and with Pyke stealing his lore Riot is really unfair for this champion.

55 Comments

SirLapseAug 4, 20184 votes

Except this primarily hurts his E max ONLY, and not even at early game. Sunfire Cape is an option for waveclear and Cinderhulk does have a usable AoE. This is in no way a net nerf if we calculate how FAST your shield goes down while trying to do any camps at all. Once the shield is gone, you've lost your damage regardless. It was never going to last the full 10 seconds, NEVER. I still don't even think it'll last the full 6 here either considering that every single camp does at least 120 damage within 3 seconds regardless of champion, barring someone like Graves who forces the mobs to get kited. That means you've effectively gained 6 second cooldown reduction for free for clears where your shield is most definitely going to get popped.

Posts like these get upvoted when absolutely no show of validity is shown by someone who plays Nautilus to test clear efficiency (or already have it memorized in general for what a change like this does) shows what kind of community really camps this place. Learn some math and practicality people...

Zero Skill TankAug 4, 20182 votes

Duration of the shield fucks up his LANING. Minions won't pop it while you are pushing, and if you use it right enemy laner often won't be able to either.

In the JUNGLE, yes, shield will get popped regardles, but it doesn't matter, right now Naut is such a shitty jungler that sites like champion.gg don't even list him as a jungle champion anymore. Moreover, scuttles are the most important camp now, and this change makes him worse in contesting scuttles.

And that's what I wrote. You are mixing two entirely different scenarios.

They should really have more school hours spend on reading comprehension in NA.

SirLapseAug 4, 20181 votes

If you fight anyone and have the shield up, you're automatically in a position to take less damage. Minions won't pop the shield while you are pushing, most certainly. But your E is more important for waveclear regardless along with the Sunfire I mentioned. This also doesn't take into account that the minion wave will damage your shield if you choose to use any empowered AA's at all, meaning that it's not just exclusively champion damage that will eat at your shield. This is not even including shielding defensively and backing off where you get no damage off the cast itself.

Nautilus used to be a tank jungler and tank junglers in general right now are suffering for multiple reasons. You may be right about the fact that this might not be enough, but that doesn't change that it is indeed a significant buff to his jungling. If you only get 3 empowered auto's within one clear, that means you effectively have gotten a 15 second downtime in your clears. Why ignore this? It's exactly why I pointed it out. Lowering a 15 second downtime to 9 seconds is huge when we take into account the amount of clears you need to commit two W's to, and using W more than once means you actually come out with more health than live Nautilus.

Scuttles are not the most important camps. Your first clear is the most important clear on tank junglers, and if they stop you from being able to do them (i.e. Nocturne, Lee Sin, etc.) then you effectively are useless until your team has enough damage to rely on just your CC alone. A huge issue with Nautilus for the longest time is that you use your primary dueling/defensive ability TO CLEAR CAMPS. And when you're invaded on, IT IS GONE, meaning you are extremely vulnerable.

Your reaction feels extremely kneejerk. Take the damn buff and if it isn't enough then ask for something else instead of flame Riot for even attempting something with tank junglers.

Daddy AntsAug 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Duration of the shield fucks up his LANING. Minions won't pop it while you are pushing, and if you use it right enemy laner often won't be able to either.

In the JUNGLE, yes, shield will get popped regardles, but it doesn't matter, right now Naut is such a shitty jungler that sites like champion.gg don't even list him as a jungle champion anymore. Moreover, scuttles are the most important camp now, and this change makes him worse in contesting scuttles.

And that's what I wrote. You are mixing two entirely different scenarios.

They should really have more school hours spend on reading comprehension in NA.

Champion.gg isn't listing Nautilus as a jungler based on his performance.

They list based on where he see's reasonable levels of play in the previous patch.

TheSingularityAug 4, 20182 votes

His jungle clear is already trash tier. Now his base shield health is going down weakening his first clear (THE MOST IMPORTANT CLEAR!) Especially on red buff side. Then it's weaker lategame punishing him for picking health over resists. (Why the fk would I buy Stoneplate now?)

And what do I get in exchange? An irrelevant mana cost buff as I build mana first or have a blue buff in jg. A duration nerf with a cd buff as compensation. But in the end that doesn't mean crap as almost every naut hits 40-45% cdr resulting in a near constant w uptime late game assuming he isn't being hit.

And even if I get fed and a big beefy shield. It along with my primary damage only lasts 6 dam seconds.

So what exactly have I gained as a naut jg main who's been waiting years for him to be fixed? I see a grand sum of nerfs

SirLapseAug 4, 20181 votes

His jungle speed is slow but generally more casts of his shield allows for superior overall clears, even if it is only slight in the end. We've seen jungle shifts change the viability of champions over time, so it's not like he can't come back. There's a lot of damage going around in the meta so it's arguable as to whether base stats currently are enough for him, and that has less to do with the shield and more to do with the state of the game.

His sustain for clears will be superior however without a doubt. Blue buff covers the mana costs easily, but 20 less mana to pay in lane after all the E cost nerfs is quite useful. Hell, if you E max then your W is not going to be going past rank 2 until you're past lv9, which means for the majority of the early game this is a buff. 10 second duration only matters if you're already in a position to heavily tank for the team or your matchup, which doesn't apply to jungle ganks, tanking for early dragons, etc. Nautilius is just a CC bot late game and that hasn't really been touched here.

TheSingularityAug 6, 20182 votes

Could we not have achieved this, by reverting half of the patch 5.1 changes?

Patch 5.1 100/150/200/250/300 ⇒ 65/70/75/80/85 base value.

The clear is similar albeit sightly weaker (20 less shield early). I lose one AA reset compared to other changes, not a big deal. However I get better initial 1v1, better tower dives, and I can counter the cooldown:duration ratio by popping my W b4 I get to a cap early game. I do it all the time at blue and on the way to red

Hell, if you E max then your W is not going to be going past rank 2 until you're past lv9

Who the hell maxes E on naut jg? E has diminishing damage while W eventually gives flawless and fast clears. Maxing E then gives weaker dives to top it off.

10 second duration only matters if you're already in a position to heavily tank for the team or your matchup

Which is exactly what happens late-game. You can get over 800 hp worth of shielding then chuck stoneplate and locket on top of that. Also, see above. You can circumvent the duration : cooldown ratio by simply popping it early. Got 5 seconds of walking to red? Pop shield. Blue spawining in 5 seconds? Pop shield ect

SirLapseAug 6, 20181 votes

Games aren't stretching to late game and damage is so high currently that a 10 sec shield isn't lasting the full duration unless they stop focusing you entirely and/or are dead. Jungle camps are the easiest thing to refer to since their damage is significant but not murderous until involving Raptor camp, something that Naut barely struggles with.

Also this doesn't really change up the actual problem with Nautilus by popping the shield early. There was a similar issue with Malz Q and his passive interaction to where longtime Malz mains knew how to play the champion by using the Q in base to actively get the spawn in lane. This was not intuitive and I don't think it'd be intuitive for Nautilus players in general either.

Lastly, I never said Jungle Naut maxes E. Lane Naut has been known to do so as his main playstyle, and I'm going at it from the angle of observing as many things as possible about Naut as a champion. He's barely seeing play anywhere.

TheSingularityAug 8, 20181 votes

Curios as to if you could address the initial point about the 5.1 changes

SirLapseAug 8, 20181 votes

The base shield even at the moment would still be stronger level 1 due to the max health scaling. The old shield scaled with bonus health, so you weren't rewarded for level ups as much as you were for items.

It might look like more but inevitably it isn't. This applies especially well into late game due to a lot of health item nerfs we've received from the previous tank itemization rework.

TheSingularityAug 8, 20181 votes

But my proposal would be reverting just the base aspect, not the % scaling So it would be 100/150/200/250/300 (+ 9 / 11 / 13 / 15 / 17% maximum health) if my proposed change went through. Which would be a sizable buff early and an awesome level 9 from 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 / 85. That's over triple the current value you get at lvl 9 by maxing W.

After one clear, you'd have 80 more shield than you do currently (level 4 or lvl 3 if you go for a macro clear [as you get 2 levels in W by lvl 3]). Short term, you would have a slightly weaker clear than the PBE change, however it would rapidly become redundant due to the sheer size of the base shield

SirLapseAug 8, 20181 votes

Wouldn't that just be grossly overbuffing Nautilus unlike the other tanks who are getting rather...modest changes?

Runes defensively are garbage so the overbuff makes sense in the short term, but I think that's pretty extreme to just give to a champion straight up. You're talking about a 150 health shield at lv1. You literally cannot trade against that, hell your minion wave won't even matter.

TheSingularityAug 8, 20181 votes

Would say overbuff rather than grossly overbuff. Because that shield size is about the same as a riven or rumble shield @ lvl 1 and given a shield is temporary early game (unlike heals), like riven or darius you will need to play around a cool down. With it he wins, without it he loses hard (like yorick/illaoi and landing his E or kled and his Q) However champs like fiora, darius, gp, aatrox and irelia would still work wonders purely though their kits

Teridax68Aug 4, 20181 votes

Did you actually read OP's post properly? They criticized how this would constitute a nerf to Nautilus's laning, first and foremost. Why exactly are you bringing up his jungling in response? It must certainly feel very gratifying to put other players collectively down, and raise oneself up by comparison in the process, but it becomes a little embarassing when one also happens to have been unable to read an argument properly, let alone respond to it adequately.

SirLapseAug 4, 20181 votes

Could you stop repeatedly looking through my posts with your triggered attitude? You criticize actual useful posts that talk about where Nautilus can be played. I've seen Nautilus in support and even there this is a net buff because that shield will never last the full duration, allowing for more windows of engage especially in the early game where this buff matters.

His solo lane is not the only lane, and does not need exclusive attention with regard to the champion as a whole.

Teridax68Aug 4, 20181 votes

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Could you stop repeatedly looking through my posts with your triggered attitude? You criticize actual useful posts that talk about where Nautilus can be played.

I didn't, I saw this thread and just happened to see you made a particularly crappy response here. Imputing me a "triggered attitude" does not make you any less wrong on this matter (it also sounds a lot like projection, btw, as noted by the visibly aggravated tone to your reply), and the only post I criticized here was yours. It is by no means "actual useful posts" (sic), and having to toot your own horn that way is kinda sad to watch.

{quoted}

I've seen Nautilus in support and even there this is a net buff because that shield will never last the full duration, allowing for more windows of engage especially in the early game where this buff matters.

His solo lane is not the only lane, and does not need exclusive attention with regard to the champion as a whole.

Except that still does not detract from your own, wrong post, in which you tried to counter a statement on Nautilus's top lane by saying his jungle clear wouldn't be too harshly affected. I'm not saying the above change is a buff or a nerf to his duo lane, I'm just pointing out that your comment serves strictly no purpose but to put another player down, as you tried to argue a point the OP was not even making. Trying to bullshit with me with tangential statements on topics that are not being discussed in this exchanged simply does not work.

SirLapseAug 4, 20181 votes

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I didn't, I saw this thread and just happened to see you made a particularly crappy response here. Imputing me a "triggered attitude" does not make you any less wrong on this matter (it also sounds a lot like projection, btw, as noted by the visibly aggravated tone to your reply), and the only post I criticized here was yours. It is by no means "actual useful posts" (sic), and having to toot your own horn that way is kinda sad to watch.

You seem to get a kick from trying to put people down yourself. I'm looking for active opinions and openness, not this low-effort kneejerk that doesn't even try to put math together for the champion as a whole in all applicable roles he's been in. Or should I commend him for doing nothing noteworthy except complain in a one-dimensional manner?

It's fine to have opinions but don't expect it to get very far without data or enthusiasm.

Except that still does not detract from your own, wrong post, in which you tried to counter a statement on Nautilus's top lane by saying his jungle clear wouldn't be too harshly affected. I'm not saying the above change is a buff or a nerf to his duo lane, I'm just pointing out that your comment serves strictly no purpose but to put another player down, as you tried to argue a point the OP was not even making. Trying to bullshit with me with tangential statements on topics that are not being discussed in this exchanged simply does not work.

The validity of an opinion especially when the dynamic isn't being mentioned with regard to matchup and effective usage of the skill itself will be lower than something that actually does present those things. It is extremely common to encounter that in these boards, and this situation is no different to the kneejerks we see on the daily.

But no, it's somehow bullshit because...? Oh yeah, cause you don't like opinions that differ from your own lmao. Reduce your emotional sensitivity and maybe you and I can have a real discussion. Last I checked Sunfire was primarily a tank laner's item. ?XD

Teridax68Aug 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You seem to get a kick from trying to put people down yourself. I'm looking for active opinions and openness, not this low-effort kneejerk that doesn't even try to put math together for the champion as a whole in all applicable roles he's been in. Or should I commend him for doing nothing noteworthy except complain in a one-dimensional manner?

You are looking for neither, you simply came here to post your opinion and shut everyone else down. You accuse others of not doing the math, yet do none of it yourself, and instead argued on an entirely wrong premise. Their concerns over Naut's top lane is valid, even if it is not a concern you share, and you trying to silence them and dismiss their opinion demonstrates none of the openness you claim to look for.

{quoted}

It's fine to have opinions but don't expect it to get very far without data or enthusiasm.

Then provide the data. What exactly have you done to substantiate your claims here?

{quoted}

The validity of an opinion especially when the dynamic isn't being mentioned with regard to matchup and effective usage of the skill itself will be lower than something that actually does present those things. It is extremely common to encounter that in these boards, and this situation is no different to the kneejerks we see on the daily.

And in English, this means... ?

{quoted}

But no, it's somehow bullshit because...? Oh yeah, cause you don't like opinions that differ from your own lmao. Reduce your emotional sensitivity and maybe you and I can have a real discussion. Last I checked Sunfire was primarily a tank laner's item. ?XD

These last two paragraphs are entirely incoherent, and do nothing but attack me for daring to challenge you. Once more, I interjected here to point out that you criticized a player expressing concern at a champion's laning by bringing up their jungle clears, a wrong argument. To repeat, you are wrong, nothing you do will ever change that, and trying to deny it here reflects all the more poorly upon the attitude you've taken in this exchange. Again, going into tangents does not detract from this.

SirLapseAug 5, 20181 votes

[deleted]

Teridax68Aug 7, 20181 votes

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Telling people that it's a net buff by showing some of the simplest examples and asking for actual input in today's Nautilus match-ups is a purely malicious intent of a post. I can see it now.

Except, as pointed out above, and as indicated by your very own post, that's not what you set out to do. You cited only the vaguest and most tangential of examples as a veneer to dump on the thread's original poster, with the large part of your post's volume dedicated entirely to putting them down. You did not come here with good intentions, you just came here to fight.

{quoted}

You really need to improve your public speaking and writing skills to college level. Get your stuff edited and ask for someone to at least double check how you're going about these posts. It really feels you're not trying to consult anyone over your approaches and therefore deem yourself correct AND free of malice in your posts. It's not the case.

Interesting, because trying to dodge pertinent questions via personal attacks is a debating tactic that doesn't fly past middle school. You might want to catch up. Once again, again, what exactly have you done to substantiate your claims here?

{quoted}

Go back to school. It shouldn't be hard to realize what I'm saying if you actually studied. You always try to make yourself look the most competent when speaking to me, the least you can do is actually study up to compete with me directly. Education is one of the most important parts of life.

So effectively, your word salad translates to nothing coherent, and was an attempt at trying to obfuscate the one person you are talking to by trying (and failing) to sound smarter than your ability allows. Good to know!

{quoted}

Anyway to clarify the post in "simplistic" terms: A post that shows value is one that takes into account ALL or ANY effective usages of the current edition vs. the new edition of the skill. If it is bad in a matchup, where are the numbers to dictate that? There's no value in that compared to a post that actually submits this kind of thing. I already showcased the value in the jungle, and blocking over 2 auto's without accounting for minion response is already a shield that is sizeable but undoubtedly will not last 10 seconds ever still.

So basically, if one has to make a general point, one also has to provide general evidence? Was that so hard to write down?

Also, for that matter, have you tried applying this logic to your own post? Once again, your one example discussed Nautilus's jungling, so you're not exactly making a general statement either. Moreover, the OP wasn't either, as they specifically focused on his laning. Because of this, you have entirely missed the point of the thread.

{quoted}

This is an established pattern of logical thinking where a person is at least supposed to run the numbers in their head and compare them to real situations. And you're showcasing very blatantly that you've never done that. Just like with Cassiopeia lmao.

It is interesting that you presume that I have a stake in this debate. I don't, and anyone with a modicum of reading comprehension should have been able to see this in my comments. My opinion on Nautilus and his change is largely neutral. In fact, I'm in favor of the duration and cooldown reduction, because I don't personally believe shields should last that long. At no point have I contradicted you on your assessment of his jungling, so it is rather telling that you would automatically act so defensive on every front. As I recall, you did this in the Cassiopeia thread as well, which is why you ended up stretching yourself far too thin.

{quoted}

I still do challenge you. You can be more than this one-dimensional person launching posts just to declare someone wrong because you didn't like how it was said. You don't have to like someone's method of saying something, but it shouldn't be influencing the correctness of the facts laid down.

Interesting that you would think of a person as "one-dimensional" simply because they dared to correct you. As it stands, this isn't a matter of me liking how your post was said, it was pointed out that your post addressed in no way what the OP said, and was only a thinly-disguised attempt at throwing out vitriol.

{quoted}

You continuously call my posts incoherent because I'm using the maximum of my logical capacities and vocabulary.

If this is truly the maximum of your logical capacities and vocabulary, I am truly sorry. Thank you for explicitly letting me know that you are indeed trying to sound as smart as you possibly can for me.

{quoted}

I thought you could handle it, but looks like I'll have to actually dumb it down so that you're capable of even understanding the most complex of concepts.

Actually, the correct expression would be "even the simplest of concepts", as simpler concepts are easier to understand, whereas more complex concepts are harder to understand. Try not to use expressions you yourself do not grasp, it only embarrasses you further.

{quoted}

Calculating buffs and nerfs is some of the most basic shit as well. Go watch Phreak's patch notes as many times as you can so that we can better avoid this kind of back-and-forth bullshit that you seem set on producing.

But of course, how could I not realize that buffs and nerfs are child's play. With that enthusiasm, you should apply for the balance team, as you clearly know something they don't! /s

SirLapseAug 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Except, as pointed out above, and as indicated by your very own post, that's not what you set out to do. You cited only the vaguest and most tangential of examples as a veneer to dump on the thread's original poster, with the large part of your post's volume dedicated entirely to putting them down. You did not come here with good intentions, you just came here to fight.

Hell no. If you want to complain about something, bring something to the table instead of just say it's a nerf.

Interesting, because trying to dodge pertinent questions via personal attacks is a debating tactic that doesn't fly past middle school. You might want to catch up. Once again, again, what exactly have you done to substantiate your claims here?

Double check yourself is what the goal of the statement is.

So effectively, your word salad translates to nothing coherent, and was an attempt at trying to obfuscate the one person you are talking to by trying (and failing) to sound smarter than your ability allows. Good to know!

It means I put you up on a level where you were deserving enough to actually withstand a certain level of logic. You cannot do this with people on the street in the ghetto. That's not a good thing to say, but sadly the truth isn't always kind.

So basically, if one has to make a general point, one also has to provide general evidence? Was that so hard to write down?

Considering your reaction? Apparently. You've yet to really stay on topic and talk about Nautilus after all.

Also, for that matter, have you tried applying this logic to your own post? Once again, your one example discussed Nautilus's jungling, so you're not exactly making a general statement either. Moreover, the OP wasn't either, as they specifically focused on his laning. Because of this, you have entirely missed the point of the thread.

The OP isn't concerned with Nautilus as a champion in general, and didn't submit any real evidence toward how this would damage Nautilus in specific. Just imagine random players who do not play Nautilus coming into this thread. How are they receiving this information and its potency toward observing Nautilus as a champion? They aren't being given anything significant, I'll say that much.

It is interesting that you presume that I have a stake in this debate. I don't, and anyone with a modicum of reading comprehension should have been able to see this in my comments. My opinion on Nautilus and his change is largely neutral. In fact, I'm in favor of the duration and cooldown reduction, because I don't personally believe shields should last that long. At no point have I contradicted you on your assessment of his jungling, so it is rather telling that you would automatically act so defensive on every front. As I recall, you did this in the Cassiopeia thread as well, which is why you ended up stretching yourself far too thin.

You don't even start your comment chains like this and actually encourage misunderstandings by not doing so. It's not about the intention of your post, it's about the actual consequences it might create. You will intentionally derail if it means you get to criticize someone. Or so it seems. I can for sure say my last post regardless of delete was completely worth it since I had invested into this thread.

Interesting that you would think of a person as "one-dimensional" simply because they dared to correct you. As it stands, this isn't a matter of me liking how your post was said, it was pointed out that your post addressed in no way what the OP said, and was only a thinly-disguised attempt at throwing out vitriol.

You need to actually see the plethora of nerf/buff and reaction threads that come around here and compare this to them. They are not actually different in the way they observe information. It only has one stance and no dynamic shift even with math presented. I've seen it far too often.

Furthermore, the OP didn't even address my statement himself with numbers or real evidence to be going at it from.

If this is truly the maximum of your logical capacities and vocabulary, I am truly sorry. Thank you for explicitly letting me know that you are indeed trying to sound as smart as you possibly can for me.

You're welcome. I didn't even say it with a sarcastic tone (not did I for this), but I'm completely sure you saw it that way. It feels good to know you misinterpreted something and will likely read this thinking that you may or may not need to revise what I write and how you're perceiving it.

Actually, the correct expression would be "even the simplest of concepts", as simpler concepts are easier to understand, whereas more complex concepts are harder to understand. Try not to use expressions you yourself do not grasp, it only embarrasses you further.

Actually it was stated as is because complex language being boiled down to simpler terms improves discussion rather than demeans discussion. But again, you probably read that with a sarcastic tone. It's why I have no regrets over the delete itself, as it was a satisfactory post from my POV that got the expected results.

But of course, how could I not realize that buffs and nerfs are child's play. With that enthusiasm, you should apply for the balance team, as you clearly know something they don't! /s

Suggesting balance changes is one thing. Calculating how it affects the champion is another thing entirely. But yes, let's assume it's the former instead of something with actual mathematical applications. Because I'm that kind of idiot, aren't I Teridax boyo? Why else would I mention Phreak who does these kinds of applications? Because TONS OF FORCE of course!

I actually was correct about everything you'd attempt in response to my prior post and am almost entirely certain now that you have no idea how to view people in different perspectives. Unfortunate. But hey, I at least left you with a post in another thread that tries to address that issue. Let's see how it goes.

Teridax68Aug 8, 20181 votes

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Hell no. If you want to complain about something, bring something to the table instead of just say it's a nerf.

When exactly did I call Nautilus's change a nerf? If you're talking about the OP, they did give out a basic explanation on how they felt it'd affect his lane. Your flimsy excuse does not detract from your post being a failed attempt at dumping on the OP.

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Double check yourself is what the goal of the statement is.

Then by all means, please do double check yourself. It is interesting that you would say so, yet still deliberately ignore a request to substantiate your claims regarding Nautilus's balance.

{quoted}

It means I put you up on a level where you were deserving enough to actually withstand a certain level of logic. You cannot do this with people on the street in the ghetto. That's not a good thing to say, but sadly the truth isn't always kind.

Putting aside the vague racism in your reply, you are attempting to serve "a certain level of logic" that is clearly beyond you. More to the point, you are deliberately trying to aggrandize yourself yet again in some kind of bizarre posturing attempt, when simply posting coherent sentences, and statements that make sense, would be a much better start towards a proper discussion.

{quoted}

Considering your reaction? Apparently. You've yet to really stay on topic and talk about Nautilus after all.

So you admit then that you find it difficult to condense your overly verbose reply into a concise point? Alrighty then. Moreover, the topic of our exchange was never Nautilus, it was your own reply, which was wrong and unnecessary to the thread. Don't think you can shift the goalposts to this argument.

{quoted}

The OP isn't concerned with Nautilus as a champion in general, and didn't submit any real evidence toward how this would damage Nautilus in specific. Just imagine random players who do not play Nautilus coming into this thread. How are they receiving this information and its potency toward observing Nautilus as a champion? They aren't being given anything significant, I'll say that much.

Again, you are trying to shift the goalposts here. The OP did not elaborate upon their response, but you did not attack them on that front, and instead tried to contradict their opinion on the change itself, citing reasoning that was utterly irrelevant to what the OP had said. Your reply was wrong, and featured none of your current backtracking.

{quoted}

You don't even start your comment chains like this and actually encourage misunderstandings by not doing so. It's not about the intention of your post, it's about the actual consequences it might create. I can for sure say my last post regardless of delete was completely worth it.

I'm sorry, are you having trouble reading through my comment chain? If so, that may explain how so much of what you reply is lacking in coherency, including here. If that isn't what you're trying to say, that puts you in even less of a position to attack me on my writing, which you have been the only one to have trouble understanding.

{quoted}

You need to actually see the plethora of nerf/buff and reaction threads that come around here and compare this to them. They are not actually different in the way they observe information. It only has one stance and no dynamic shift even with math presented. I've seen it far too often.

Just because you've seen a lot of complaint threads does not give you license to attack players on here at random. I agree, many complaints on here lack substance, but I don't use that as an excuse to pick fights with the OPs based on some irrelevant pretext.

{quoted}

Furthermore, the OP didn't even address my statement himself with numbers or real evidence to be going at it from.

There is no need to, your statement did not address his to begin with. It is interesting that you would demand proper attention and effort towards your posts when you demonstrate neither towards others.

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You're welcome. I didn't even say it with a sarcastic tone (not did I for this), but I'm completely sure you saw it that way. It feels good to know you misinterpreted something and will likely read this thinking that you may or may not need to revise what I write and how you're perceiving it.

That's the thing: I didn't. When you told me you were trying to push your intellectual capabilities to the maximum when arguing with me, I believed you. That is what makes your low-quality replies all the sadder. To some extent, I'm flattered that you would exert yourself like that just for me, but unfortunately it really hasn't paid off.

{quoted}

Actually it was stated as is because complex language being boiled down to simpler terms improves discussion rather than demeans discussion. But again, you probably read that with a sarcastic tone. It's why I have no regrets over the delete itself, as it was a satisfactory post from my POV that got the expected results.

It is impressive to see the mental gymnastics at hand here as you try to weasel your way out of a situation where you clearly messed up. As you've just explained, using simpler, not more complex terms, to describe the same thing tends to improve discussion, therefore you "the simplest of terms" would still be the correct expression. Your post may have been deleted, but the embarrassment you've put yourself through within has been preserved in the parts I quoted. This is a clear example of you trying to pretend you're right even as you've been proven inescapably, categorically wrong.

{quoted}

Suggesting balance changes is one thing. Calculating how it affects the champion is another thing entirely. But yes, let's assume it's the former instead of something with actual mathematical applications.

I actually was correct about everything you'd attempt in response to my prior post and almost entirely certain now that you have no idea how to view people in different perspectives. Unfortunate. But hey, I at least left you with a post in another thread that tries to address that issue. Let's see how it goes.

Interesting that you would accuse me of never admitting to being wrong, while demonstrating that exact flaw here. The issue here isn't that I'm incapable of seeing in your perspective, the problem is that your perspective on this matter is founded upon a pathological need to save face at all costs. You have shown yourself willing and able to distort facts and twist words at every turn, and lying outright just to avoid having to face the fact that you are wrong on a matter. You make grandiose claims like "calculating buffs and nerfs is the most basic shit", demonstrating utter ignorance of the subject matter you are discussing, only to turn around completely and accuse others of not being humble enough. Face it, you are wrong on this matter as well, and are yet again attacking my character to try to shift discussion away from the fact.

mack9112Aug 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Did you actually read OP's post properly? They criticized how this would constitute a nerf to Nautilus's laning, first and foremost. Why exactly are you bringing up his jungling in response? It must certainly feel very gratifying to put other players collectively down, and raise oneself up by comparison in the process, but it becomes a little embarassing when one also happens to have been unable to read an argument properly, let alone respond to it adequately.

They are obviously transitioning naut into a junlge position which i personally I like. He should not be top lane as he is oppressive when strong and support naut was always silly. In my opinion he should be in the jungle.

On a side note change your attitude man

Teridax68Aug 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They are obviously transitioning naut into a junlge position which i personally I like. He should not be top lane as he is oppressive when strong and support naut was always silly. In my opinion he should be in the jungle.

Says who? Nautilus top is rarely complained about, and there is strictly no mention of Riot explicitly wanting to transition him to a pure jungler and away from lanes. Just because you personally want this to happen does not make it the case.

{quoted}

On a side note change your attitude man

You first. I criticized the above poster for putting other players down, yet that is what you choose to criticize here. In addition, you explicitly do not seem to care for players who express concern about how the above changes will affect Nautilus's top lane, on the pure grounds that you personally dislike the champion in that position. As such, you are in no position to levy criticism here.

mack9112Aug 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Says who? Nautilus top is rarely complained about, and there is strictly no mention of Riot explicitly wanting to transition him to a pure jungler and away from lanes. Just because you personally want this to happen does not make it the case.

You first. I criticized the above poster for putting other players down, yet that is what you choose to criticize here. In addition, you explicitly do not seem to care for players who express concern about how the above changes will affect Nautilus's top lane, on the pure grounds that you personally dislike the champion in that position. As such, you are in no position to levy criticism here.

You are not criticizing you are personally attacking someone on a board I would never speak to someone like that in real life so I would never type it either do you share that same approach ?

Nauts kit is designed as a jungler due to its powerful gank potential why would he go top ? At the end of the day it is not healthy to balance a champion to be good in multiple roles it has never worked in the history of league you get one or the other im sorry.

Teridax68Aug 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You are not criticizing you are personally attacking someone on a board I would never speak to someone like that in real life so I would never type it either do you share that same approach ?

You literally just did, though? In a conversation that up until now strictly did not involve you, you personally went in to attack my character, and continue to do so in this post. You can claim all you want that you "would never speak to someone like that in real life," yet you have literally just proven yourself wrong by demonstrating the exact attitude you've been claiming to call out.

{quoted}

Nauts kit is designed as a jungler due to its powerful gank potential why would he go top ? At the end of the day it is not healthy to balance a champion to be good in multiple roles it has never worked in the history of league you get one or the other im sorry.

The opposite is true. When a champion is balanced exclusively around a single position, their balance tends to be so isolated that, whenever they have to compete with another class of champions, they either dominate so hard, or risk disappearing entirely (look at enchanters and marksmen, for example). Balancing champions around multiple roles is a necessary component to making them and the game healthier as a whole, as it prevents that kind of isolation. Moreover, a kit can be designed for one role, and still be viable in another, so it makes strictly no sense to restrict champions based on design intent. Vi was designed to be a top laner, for example, yet is overwhelmingly played as a jungler. Are you saying she needs to be rebalanced for top lane?

mack9112Aug 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You literally just did, though? In a conversation that up until now strictly did not involve you, you personally went in to attack my character, and continue to do so in this post. You can claim all you want that you "would never speak to someone like that in real life," yet you have literally just proven yourself wrong by demonstrating the exact attitude you've been claiming to call out.

The opposite is true. When a champion is balanced exclusively around a single position, their balance tends to be so isolated that, whenever they have to compete with another class of champions, they either dominate so hard, or risk disappearing entirely (look at enchanters and marksmen, for example). Balancing champions around multiple roles is a necessary component to making them and the game healthier as a whole, as it prevents that kind of isolation. Moreover, a kit can be designed for one role, and still be viable in another, so it makes strictly no sense to restrict champions based on design intent. Vi was designed to be a top laner, for example, yet is overwhelmingly played as a jungler. Are you saying she needs to be rebalanced for top lane?

Definitely man if a champion fits another role they can transition into with vi they moved her into the jungle and balanced her around that as it looks like they will be doing with naut now. Look at all the examples through leagues history of champions with too diverse kits invading multiple positions in game drowing out other characters ezreal , quinn , xin , warwick , lulu , twitch , camille , fiddlesticks , brand are all examples . The game is simply too vast for champs to have an opportunity to be successful in multiple roles.

As far as attitude man you literally called another board member sad which is completely unacceptable the only reason I would even say anything is that you obviously hurt his feelings.

Teridax68Aug 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Definitely man if a champion fits another role they can transition into with vi they moved her into the jungle and balanced her around that as it looks like they will be doing with naut now. Look at all the examples through leagues history of champions with too diverse kits invading multiple positions in game drowing out other characters ezreal , quinn , xin , warwick , lulu , twitch , camille , fiddlesticks , brand are all examples . The game is simply too vast for champs to have an opportunity to be successful in multiple roles.

Except literally none of those champions' problems stem from them being viable in multiple roles? Quinn, Xin Zhao and Warwick in particular are largely played in a single role, too, so it feels like you're mostly just listing off champions you personally do not like. For sure, these champions have had design and balance issues, but those differ from them being in multiple positions. Ezreal has been a problem mostly because he abuses on-hit items, for example, and Quinn has only recently become a problem because of the amount of front-loaded burst available. Fiddlesticks, Brand and Lulu are just about the only champions whose problems are role-specific, and so precisely because the balancing of the support role is so isolated relative to the entire rest of the game that it generates gameplay problems. The solution here is to have more champions designed for multiple roles, not less, and to de-isolate whichever positions are too separated from the others in their design.

{quoted}

As far as attitude man you literally called another board member sad which is completely unacceptable the only reason I would even say anything is that you obviously hurt his feelings.

I criticized them for aggrandizing themselves, and called the act itself "sad to watch". At no point did I accuse the person of being "sad", and accusing me of doing so, at best, demonstrates a lack of effort put in understanding the situation properly, and at worst, is a malicious attempt at deliberately accusing me of doing something I didn't do. Again, you seem to be focusing an awful lot on that one poster's hurt feelings, yet seem to care for no-one else's, including the person said poster had directly insulted in the first place. Why is that?

mack9112Aug 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Except literally none of those champions' problems stem from them being viable in multiple roles? Quinn, Xin Zhao and Warwick in particular are largely played in a single role, too, so it feels like you're mostly just listing off champions you personally do not like. For sure, these champions have had design and balance issues, but those differ from them being in multiple positions. Ezreal has been a problem mostly because he abuses on-hit items, for example, and Quinn has only recently become a problem because of the amount of front-loaded burst available. Fiddlesticks, Brand and Lulu are just about the only champions whose problems are role-specific, and so precisely because the balancing of the support role is so isolated relative to the entire rest of the game that it generates gameplay problems. The solution here is to have more champions designed for multiple roles, not less, and to de-isolate whichever positions are too separated from the others in their design.

I criticized them for aggrandizing themselves, and called the act itself "sad to watch". At no point did I accuse the person of being "sad", and accusing me of doing so, at best, demonstrates a lack of effort put in understanding the situation properly, and at worst, is a malicious attempt at deliberately accusing me of doing something I didn't do. Again, you seem to be focusing an awful lot on that one poster's hurt feelings, yet seem to care for no-one else's, including the person said poster had directly insulted in the first place. Why is that?

Ok dude I'm stepping back now from this conversation now I don't think you understand what you did.

I am excited to play naut in the jungle and I'm leaving it at that. We obviously have different opinions.

Teridax68Aug 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Ok dude I'm stepping back now from this conversation now I don't think you understand what you did.

On the contrary, I fully explained my position while explaining why yours is wrong, and inviting you to justify yourself. You repeating yourself multiple times, then giving up, is more indicative of you failing to convince me with your argument by repetition, than it is of me not understanding what I did.

{quoted}

I am excited to play naut in the jungle and I'm leaving it at that. We obviously have different opinions.

So am I, and at no point did I ever say anything against Naut's jungling, which makes this backhanded accusation all the more perplexing. Trying to leave an argument while also leaving behind personal accusations, including accusations of things I did not do, is not what someone with a healthy attitude would do, which makes your initial accusation all the more ironic.

TheSingularityAug 4, 20183 votes

It is abysmal. This is going to send his junk yard clear straight into the depths of hell.

BavalAug 4, 20183 votes

if your main concern is "someone at Riot forgot that his shield is also a damage source, that he uses to waveclear and fight" and the cooldown and cost was reduced without reducing the damage, doesnt that then help his ability to waveclear and fight?

SirLapseAug 4, 20182 votes

Not waveclear, but definitely his ability to clear the jungle and have superior trading windows in the early game where he already is arguably decent in some matchups.

meowwow7Aug 4, 20181 votes

the only thing it's going to help is the auto reset it has and if naut is running item 3025

Sire HippingtonAug 4, 20181 votes

To fight maybe, but not much, you waon#t be able to use it on CD usually, and if you do, you're mana vanishes pretty fast, and fior an all-in, the life version is stronger. For Waveclear, it's certainly worse as you have 4 sec less duration on the on-hit. Right now, one W is just enough to push the wave if paired with a bami's, but 6 sec will not last long enough leaving you with either less waveclear, or forceing a second cast which delays you're clear and costs lots of mana. And for the jungle it's just straight worse...

AMADEUSdotEXEAug 4, 20182 votes

WE JUST CAME OUT OF A like 2 yeear tank meta why the fuck are they buffing them again It's nice seeing something besides ornn and mundo hugging eachother

Daddy AntsAug 4, 20188 votes

{quoted}

WE JUST CAME OUT OF A like 2 yeear tank meta why the fuck are they buffing them again It's nice seeing something besides ornn and mundo hugging eachother

Lol?

Last time we had a proper tank meta was Season 6.

S7 was Enchanter / Ardent Censer

S8 is a 1 shot or be 1 shot meta.

wildfox99Aug 4, 20184 votes

https://cdn2.iconfinder.com/data/icons/browsers/IE.png

it was S6

Daddy AntsAug 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

https://cdn2.iconfinder.com/data/icons/browsers/IE.png

it was S6

Right now I'd prefer a Tank Meta over this 1 shot meta we have atm.

Nea104Aug 4, 20181 votes

That is not a buff for tanks, in no way. It's called a palliative, at best.

Nautilus, Tahm and Leona aren't any tankier with those changes, for example. Overall damage will still be crazy, so the "tank" role is not an actual role; you're just gonna survive 0.5 seconds more than other champs :P

BijeesnyAug 4, 20181 votes

Nautilus isn't the only one who's getting gutted. Tahm is coming with him. And Maokai 'buffs' are pure placebo.

Leto GTAug 4, 20181 votes

I tried him on his PBE and it's 100% a buff jungle-wise.

He takes little to no damage tanks to his shield so very much higher survivability. (Without leash and only with rejuvenation bread btw)

Scuttle gets destroyed faster than I do with lee sin & co.

Mana issue are non-existent even without blue buff.

Clear time could be slightly improved tho but it's way faster than what it used to be.

-> Full jungle clear : red start, without using smite, without leash, wihout doing scuttle, without golems => 3m45, a bit more than 1/3 hp remaiming, still enough mana to keep jungling all day. + I made tons of mistakes.

Overally, decent buff. I need more testing but it might become pretty good in the jungle.

BlakiepugAug 4, 20181 votes

These changes for Nautilus are honestly just bad and give me very little faith in the balance team. Nautilus is a champion who has struggled to be viable for a good while now (ever since he was nerfed last season), so I really do not understand why he is receiving compensation nerfs along with the buffs he is getting for his W. The nerfs simply outweigh the tiny buff he is getting. I just don't get it; it's not like Nautilus is on the verge of becoming broken or anything like that, he is struggling more than even the majority of tank champions right now.

DracocrashAug 4, 20181 votes

they are doing the same thing to leona.

I thought riot learnt their lesson with changing whole classes at once, most of them were unsucessfull and left balance feeling awfull.

AlienPrimateAug 4, 20181 votes

This will actually be a rather sizable buff for me. I play him in top lane and my combo of auto, w, auto, e will be more readily available making trading more often possible. I don't use his W for the shield. I just use it for mostly for an auto reset like Jax would his. Maxing E first also means the shield strength is almost exactly the same until level 12 anyways.

mack9112Aug 4, 20181 votes

It's great for jungling naut I never liked support naut

Ðeath XIIIAug 5, 20181 votes

in what world did your shield last 10 seconds as Nautilus? Were you walking to lane and hit W?

IllabetheAug 5, 20181 votes

Um...... He friggin is going to have the cooldown dropped by 6 seconds? That's from a 10.8 second cooldown to a 6.6 second cooldown.

In other words it will be PERMANENTLY renewable, and a hell of a lot longer lasting. On 10 sec duration it's gone in 3-4 seconds.

Meep ManAug 5, 20181 votes

Does the cool down of Naut's shield start when you use it or when it pops?

TheThrillionaireAug 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The changes:

Shielding :: 65/70/75/80/85 (+9/11/13/15/17% maxHP) >>> 60/70/80/90/100 (+9/10/11/12/13% maxHP) Duration :: 10 >>> 6 Cooldown :: 18 >>> 12 Cost :: 80 >>> 60

Those are in no way positive changes. Lowering shield amount and duration completely removes his ability to win any lane, and cooldown/mana buff doesn't change that - it's like someone at Riot forgot that his shield is also a damage source, that he uses to waveclear and fight.

Now, I could bet behind additional casts per jungle camp thing, I don't mind jungling with Naut would he be at least close to decent, but that's just bullshit. Naut is NOWHERE close to being a viable jungle at the moment, such a slight buff won't help with that - if it's even a buff at all, because in current meta if you take 12 seconds to clear your camps you could just afk as well. Second, as this "buff" guts his dueling, he won't be able to contest scuttles ever so - not like he can do it now - so picking him in the jungle after this buff will still be on a verge of trolling.

It saddens me because Naut is left to rot for ages now, and with Pyke stealing his lore Riot is really unfair for this champion.

So, just to get this thread back on topic and away from whatever pissing contest you guys are involved in at the moment. I think the issue is and why he's getting this what you call "nerf" ( which is very minor in my opinion) is because he's been focused on as more of a support champion in the most recent patches (not saying he cannot be played in other roles). Either way this nerf is very minor and shouldn't have too much of an effect on him as a SUPPORT. Yes they're lowering his shield strength at ranks 1 and 2 substantially, but when you have a champion that has a pull/gap-close, an aoe slow, a shield that gives him aoe auto attacks a first auto attack that snares for .5 or .75 sec whatever it is, and has decently high base damages, hes currently being played in a lane in which champions have low base health, low early game damage and built-in escapes. But also in return for the shielding amount and duration reduction, his shield is also going to be able to be used more frequently, because they're reducing the cooldown by SIX SECONDS and the mana cost by 20... so yes .. you get less shield all at once but you get that small reduction in shielding with a 33% cd reduction and a lesser cost. thus making him stronger in lane against the wrath of poke supports and bottom laners that are flooding the role at the moment.