Why complain about Esports having mostly the same champion pool?

Danny DeVito··4 votes·1,384 views

Probably going to get downvoted, but it makes no sense to complain about it. Think about it this way.

If you were sponsored by an official team, why wouldn't you play the best champions available to you in order to win?

Look at practically any competitive game, it's the same thing across the board when it comes to Esports.

Bottom line, no matter how many times you nerf or change the top champs, they will just be replaced by another group of champs and the same thing would happen

18 Comments

Fondling Gems3 votes

The complaints aren't about the players picking those champions over other champions, it is that the players don't have much choice aside from those champions. I remember when people started pulling out their pocket pick Urgots and AP kogs mid lane. That was fun, it was exciting, the game let them do it. All too often these days it is the choice between 2 champions.

The blame isn't directed at the players, it is directed at the game for putting the players in that situation. It's why I stopped watching Pro games about a year ago. I could watch game one of team X vs team Y and be talking about it with someone. Then I would mention how impressed I was with team X's jungler on <insert generic jungler here> leaving the other player confused because they had been on <insert other generic jungler here> We would then realize after half an hour we had been talking about completely different games.

Mysticman891 votes

I'm not 100% sure that's the game/changes in the game forcing them to do that (picking the best picks instead of urgot), so much as the competitive scene being taken increasingly serious, by an increasingly large number of people.

In early seasons I'm sure there were champion picks/comps that were completely broken and if played to their full potential would be leagues above alternate picks. However, people didn't necessarily know about them (not enough analysts and similar to really suss out great champ picks versus great players on a given champ), players didn't necessarily have the same degree of experience/coaching to reach those potentials, and on top of that it wasn't as big of a deal to get it wrong, both because the other teams didn't know what the 'best' picks were either, and because League wasn't big enough that losing could have serious financial implications due to sponsors and so forth.

Nowadays, there are plenty of people dedicated to figuring out what the best picks are for a given meta, extremely talented coaches who work with extremely talented players, and increasingly lucrative sponsorship opportunities on the line as both league and e-sports in general rise in popularity. If the game itself was reverted to a previous state (season 1, 2, or whenever people felt there was a lot of variety), I suspect it'd just be a matter of time before pro play boiled down to a half dozen picks for each role as we have currently.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Urgot was picked in Season 5, multiple times. Season 5 was plenty serious. The difference is that due to how punishing the game is when you get behind now it just isn't statistically worthwhile to take risky picks. Before games easily hit 40 minutes, people had the option of taking long term scalers and attempting to stall out the game until their champs came online.

The game has changed a lot since then and short games mean that almost all the slow scalers who don't have a strong laning phase (Like Ryze or Cass) got kicked to the curb and picking them in pro play is all but asking to lose.

If you think players are more serious now than before I am going to tell you that you are dead wrong. Many of the same old players from thsoe days are still going and they love their pocket picks. They just don't have the option of playing them without asking to lose. When even your pocket picks are out the only option is to play what is the best right now. Many of those great coaches have been coaches for a long time. LoL got serious on the professional level back in season 2. We are in Season 7 now and it definitely didn't take them 5 years to figure it out. The game has just evolved due to the incredibly snowbally meta we are in where the only answer to the current damage output is faster damage output and eventually you hit the top of the rung there and changes only happen as the game is rebalanced.

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

Urgot wasn't a pocket pick, he was used as a counter to Zed. Also, saying that Ryze and Cass, two of the most powerful and contested picks over the last year, were "kicked to the curb" is really showing that you do not actually watch the LCS.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Couple things. 1, you might want to be a bit more aware of what you are talking about and 2, try reading more carefully although I can see how the way I phrased it wasn't the clearest even if it was technically correct.

Urgot was a pocket pick. It was upon seeing the originators success with the champion that many mid lane pros picked it up and it became a strong counterpick until his nerfs and more importantly the meta shifts. Pocket picks can also be counter picks, in fact that is usually the reason we see pocket picks brought out.


I said all the slow scalers who don't have a strong laning phase (Like Cass or Ryze.)

Technically we are both correct in how we read/wrote that as it can be read either way. You interpreted it as "All slow scalers who don't have strong laning phase such as Cassiopea or Ryze who are slow scalers without strong laning phases." The way it was meant to be read was "All slow scalers who don't have strong laning phases such as Cass or Ryze, champions who are slow scalers but have strong laning phases."

Easy mistake and mostly my fault, the sentence could be read either way, I was referring to Cass and Ryze in the context of strong laning phase, thereby excluding them from most slow scalers which I was referring to.

Mysticman891 votes

Well sure, changes to the game dictate what the current meta is, but in a different meta there would still be optimal picks. They might not be as easy to analyze, but at the end of the day a protect-the-adc comp is going to have certain odds of working out and a win-as-many-lanes-as-possible-and-snowball comp is going to have certain odds, and turtle-and-outscale comps is going to have certain odds, and they're all but certain to be different in each case, and there will be champions who are statistically best at doing those jobs within each comp, so comp-X with champ set Y is statistically going to be the best, and there will be the best count comp to that, and some variations on each due to pick/bans.

I don't think you made a good argument for saying players aren't more serious now than before. They absolutely do have the option of picking their pocket picks, as the champs are still unlocked for them, and the button still works. I don't doubt they'd love to pick them, but they have to take the game seriously, and pick the 'best' picks. If there was a time when they picked their pocket picks instead of the 'best' pick, that implies they were willing to take things a bit less seriously. I get that the win chances between pocket-pick and 'best' pick may be bigger now, but if you're ever not picking the 'best', then you're not playing completely seriously.

Also, I didn't necessarily say the players themselves were more serious, but the scene in general. The players may be as laid-back as ever in terms of their own preferences, but team-owners and sponsors and so forth probably aren't, and shouldn't be, as the stakes are getting ever higher with more and more eyes involved and larger and larger sums of money, and that forces the players to be more serious or lose their status as a pro player.

I feel like I should mention I only really pay attention to worlds for what should be the pinnacle of serious play, but even that has had occasional flickers of non-serious play if theres an expected skill gap between teams (e.g. a korean team versus an IWC). I'm pretty sure that one of the take aways from season 6 worlds was that the skill gap between all pro non-korean teams is getting much smaller than it once was, so something is changing that isn't simply the game given all the teams are playing the same game. That something is the infrastructure and how serious it's being taken imo, which clearly has changed over the seasons, and likely will continue to.

Within the lcs and various other tournaments, theres probably expected skill gaps between teams which would contribute to willingness to deviate from 'best' picks. If the number 1 team from a region was facing the number 2 team from a region, I would be very surprised if either of them did anything but the 'best' picks. On the other hand, if the number 1 team was facing the weakest team in the region, I'd expect they might pull out their fun picks provided the skill gap between the number 1 team and the weakest team was relatively large (Edit to add: the reverse case of a team expecting to lose pulling out the pocket picks for fun is also a thing since they may as well have fun, but when the match is expected to be close, I don't expect risks.). I couldn't easily find what kind of team match ups were involved when urgot made pro play appearances (mostly getting results where pro players use them in solo queue), but I suspect they were in match ups were one team was already pretty heavily favoured to win. If we're not seeing similar so far in season 7, that might be for game related reasons, but it might also be that the skill gap between the best lcs teams and the worst lcs teams is smaller than it was in previous seasons, which would be in part due to increased levels of seriousness of all involved to push people to the highest levels.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Oh god. Now I don't normally mind walls of text, but I kinda need to get up early tomorrow and I need to wake myself up a bit to actually get through all that and reply in kind. So I am just going to bookmark this and reply to you sometime tomorrow if that is all right with you.

Mysticman891 votes

It's late on my end as well, and it's possible that some of my points are weaker than they could be due to typing late at night, I just figured I ouaght to finish it up since I'd started it.

I should clarify I'm not necessarily disagreeing that game changes are to blame at least to an extent, but suggesting that there would still be similar (if perhaps less extreme) trends due to factors external to the game.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Alright back and ready to debate again!

Well sure, changes to the game dictate what the current meta is, but in a different meta there would still be optimal picks. They might not be as easy to analyze, but at the end of the day a protect-the-adc comp is going to have certain odds of working out and a win-as-many-lanes-as-possible-and-snowball comp is going to have certain odds, and turtle-and-outscale comps is going to have certain odds, and they're all but certain to be different in each case, and there will be champions who are statistically best at doing those jobs within each comp, so comp-X with champ set Y is statistically going to be the best, and there will be the best count comp to that, and some variations on each due to pick/bans.

See my issue with this is that certain comps in their entirety can become all but invalidated, so any champions that only function well as part of those comps are invalidated too. Lets take a protect the ADC comp. Currently with the amount of burst available to assassins you can have two assassins on your team, thereby invalidating this entire comp because in general even a protect the ADC comp doesn't have enough power to save an ADC vs two assassins in a meta where damage is this high. Especially since that type of comp is a scaling comp which means the comp itself is bad, the champs in it are bad, and altogether it just isn't a justifiable option in this meta.

Sure you can do it, but it isn't a good idea in organized competitive play.

I don't think you made a good argument for saying players aren't more serious now than before. They absolutely do have the option of picking their pocket picks, as the champs are still unlocked for them, and the button still works. I don't doubt they'd love to pick them, but they have to take the game seriously, and pick the 'best' picks. If there was a time when they picked their pocket picks instead of the 'best' pick, that implies they were willing to take things a bit less seriously. I get that the win chances between pocket-pick and 'best' pick may be bigger now, but if you're ever not picking the 'best', then you're not playing completely seriously.

I think you are overlooking the power that a pocket pick brings to the table. The element of surprise, the player playing better on that champ, etc. Add a lot of power to pocket picks. You think that when Viktor or Urgot first made an appearance the enemy team knew how to deal with him? That adds a lot of power to the pick and makes picking it completely justifiable.

However when the meta makes those champions themselves very weak they aren't justifiable because the power gained from playing something the enemy doesn't know how to deal with is more than canceled out by the weakness of the champions. Viktor was a huge surprise pick that no one expected. The power he offered surprised everyone and he remains meta to this day, so it isn't that players are more serious. Viktor was a plenty serious pick who was able to flourish due to nerfs to other mid laners.

It didn't stop him from being a pocket pick that dominated the field. The issue is that these days there isn't a new Viktor hidden around. The meta is so heavily crushed by champions having to deal damage in bursts that the only other things that squeeze in are champions that are just really strong in an overbearing way and those champions aren't a surprise at all, example being Poppy.

Also, I didn't necessarily say the players themselves were more serious, but the scene in general. The players may be as laid-back as ever in terms of their own preferences, but team-owners and sponsors and so forth probably aren't, and shouldn't be, as the stakes are getting ever higher with more and more eyes involved and larger and larger sums of money, and that forces the players to be more serious or lose their status as a pro player.

I think that is a fair point but I really think you are overstating it. I haven't heard a single player with this complaint and they tend to be pretty vocal about this stuff. As the majority of sponsors, team-owners, coaches and so forth are the same that they were 3 years ago, just shifted around a bit I find it hard to believe that the scene has really changed much on their end. Sure they might be a bit more focused on winning, especially with SKT winning another year in a row but I don't think they would be discouraging pocket picks. If anything they would be encouraging them for the most part because pocket picks have proven incredibly effective in the past when it comes to pulling out wins where the team had to win or get kicked out.

I feel like I should mention I only really pay attention to worlds for what should be the pinnacle of serious play, but even that has had occasional flickers of non-serious play if theres an expected skill gap between teams (e.g. a korean team versus an IWC). I'm pretty sure that one of the take aways from season 6 worlds was that the skill gap between all pro non-korean teams is getting much smaller than it once was, so something is changing that isn't simply the game given all the teams are playing the same game. That something is the infrastructure and how serious it's being taken imo, which clearly has changed over the seasons, and likely will continue to.

You could also make the argument that as the Meta continues to un-diversify it would lower the skill gap between teams as they all start to use the same strategies. In season 5 for example splitpush, tank, lane swaps, poke, protect the ADC, and wombo combo comps were all effective strategies with pretty similar winrates. It made the teams that were really exceptional and able to master more of them much more powerful because they could reliably build comps that countered their opponents comps. It made the teams that were only really good at say, poke and splitpush comps incredibly easy to beat for teams that knew more strategies since you knew what your opponents were probably going to go and if they go for another strat you would know they wouldn't be able to perform at as high of a level and beat them anyways.

It really bumped up the skill ceiling for whole teams who were able to master more comps than their opponents and placed a lot more power in champion select. Narrowing the number of comps that are viable would also cut away much of the skill element in comp building, one of the major skills of a team back in season 5. Removing that lowers the skill ceiling, pushing team's skills closer together.

Now I am not saying that is what happened, just pointing out that your argument can be attributed and support many different ideas.

Within the lcs and various other tournaments, theres probably expected skill gaps between teams which would contribute to willingness to deviate from 'best' picks. If the number 1 team from a region was facing the number 2 team from a region, I would be very surprised if either of them did anything but the 'best' picks. On the other hand, if the number 1 team was facing the weakest team in the region, I'd expect they might pull out their fun picks provided the skill gap between the number 1 team and the weakest team was relatively large (Edit to add: the reverse case of a team expecting to lose pulling out the pocket picks for fun is also a thing since they may as well have fun, but when the match is expected to be close, I don't expect risks.). I couldn't easily find what kind of team match ups were involved when urgot made pro play appearances (mostly getting results where pro players use them in solo queue), but I suspect they were in match ups were one team was already pretty heavily favoured to win. If we're not seeing similar so far in season 7, that might be for game related reasons, but it might also be that the skill gap between the best lcs teams and the worst lcs teams is smaller than it was in previous seasons, which would be in part due to increased levels of seriousness of all involved to push people to the highest levels.

See pocket picks were originally for when you were vs a challenging team. They were surprises that the enemy team couldn't react to well and didn't know how to play around and that the player using them could do exceptionally well on. Them being only played vs weak teams just shows that the meta is so constricting that the surprise/skill factor on them is overshadowed by the meta power discrepancy.


All that being said I do agree that a bit more seriousness may have crept into competitive play, but I don't think it is the major factor in the slightest.

A Basic Island1 votes

this. imo the games i find most exciting, are ones where the massive underdog wins (Kaboom over alliance anyone?)

And its more exciting KNOWING the outcome ahead of time than it is watching a live predictable game

ZURELL2 votes

That's not the problem..... think about it again and then re-ask that question.

Zane Zephyr1 votes

It's because it's boring as fuck to watch the same exact champions in every single fucking game.

It doesn't matter if it's about winning or not, bottom line it's just flat out boring seeing the same pool of 12-15 champions every game of every week when there are 130+ champions available

Quepha1 votes

It's boring to watch. That's not the only reason but it is the easiest one to defend.

Kuzja11 votes

Wait a minute, Esports limits champion picks? Why?

Zane Zephyr1 votes

No, it's literally the same extremely small pool of champions that gets picked every single week.

MXXXXXL1 votes

I heard somewhere that In the Dota 2014/2015 international championship, out of 104/105 heroes (At the time), only 5 were not picked/banned.

Glîtchy1 votes

{quoted}

Probably going to get downvoted, but it makes no sense to complain about it. Think about it this way.

If you were sponsored by an official team, why wouldn&#039;t you play the best champions available to you in order to win?

Look at practically any competitive game, it&#039;s the same thing across the board when it comes to Esports.

Bottom line, no matter how many times you nerf or change the top champs, they will just be replaced by another group of champs and the same thing would happen

Tell me....is it any fun watching Fiora top EVERY match? is it fun watching Kha'Zix jg EVERY match? Is it fun watching Vayne ADC EVERY match? especially when it's the same 10-16 champs every game, with EVERY team, only occasionally we'll see 17 or more different champs in one season, hell, I stopped watching LCS after the games started becoming same bans and same lock-ins every time.

doodlebob6661 votes

vayne is never fucking played, fiora gets picked every now and then. There is a problem with pick diversity, but currently you need to have 20 champs somewhere in every pick and ban, your grossly overexaggerating

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