"Why do ADCs get to 'burst heal' with lifesteal while other innate healers don't?"

HateDaddy··27 votes·2,960 views

Popular question, I see it all the time on these boards. I'm going to explain it and I truly believe Riot has the correct balance around lifesteal for ADCs and innate healing on healer champions. Let's get to it..

For starters, this is a false equivalency. Innate healers don't have to buy their healing stats, and many of them can only have their healing reduced through grievance wounds. ADCs have to actually buy lifesteal, which isn't even super common these days, and they typically need to buy other stats to make it noticably effective, namely attack speed and armor pen: more AS = more auto attacks and that obviously leads to more potential healing and armor pen because lifesteal is reduced by armor, so even moderately stacked armor champions can deal with attempted lifesteal tanking ADCs, especially without armor pen.

lets take Swain or Mundo as an example. Swain and Mundo have innate healing once they hit level 6 and there's no way you can stop this healing short of killing them. You can reduce it, but you can't really stop it. That's not including the fact that they can take the %healing/shields amp mastery and spirit visage to further amp their healing, something ADCs will almost never get. This is also relatively on interactive healing, especially in mundos case and to a lesser extent, Swain because unless you can kill him outside of his R range, you are going to have to deal with his healing.

These are pretty loose examples but you see the major difference. ADCs have to buy their healing and scale it with other stats and that comes at the expense of damage, and these are supposed to be the damage dealing class. Other innate healers don't buy their healing and typically the items they like to amp their healing (AP/SV/HP), help them in their respective roles and have no drawbacks.

Do you see the problem here? For one, comparing these things is stupid. And secondly, even if we invoke the idiotic test of trying to compare them, you see why ADCs buying lifesteal is a non issue. If this was season 2/season 3 when ADCs rushed BT, you might have a point because that made bot lane very stale. But now, you probably only see BTs roughly 60% of the time and that's assuming you get to a game where an ADC gets to 4+ items because they need AD/AS/Crit/Armor Pen way before they even think of lifesteal barring outliers like Kalista and even Draven or outright snowballing, which is an outlier in itself. And this is why you can't compare the two, because there's simply no comparison. Riot has it right.

33 Comments

Dark Nephthys16 votes

Except you didn't mention that ADCs get the healing off of every auto attack while sustain based champions generally have to use an ability and then wait for the CD to come back around, (Besides for maybe some one like Swain but he uses mana to keep his sustain up). Also for trying to defend Life steal's side with the fact that you have to "buy" it...You can get 2% from Masteries, up to 4.5% from Runes and then every ADC buys item 1055 so if you wanted to you could have 10% life steal at level 1 at the start of the game, yes it's not that strong at that point but it still does go off of every auto attack. Then don't forget that the most used keystone of ADCs is Warlord's Bloodlust which can give you up to 20% life steal based on missing hp.

I'm not replying trying to say that life steal is OP or anything, I'm just mentioning it because you never said anything about runes/masteries/keystones or the fact that sustain based champions are gated by CDs or Mana while ADCs are basically gated by auto attacking and buying more if they wanted more LS.

HateDaddy5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L91EdeZF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-01T02:41:04.259+0000)

Except you didn't mention that ADCs get the healing off of every auto attack while sustain based champions generally have to use an ability and then wait for the CD to come back around, (Besides for maybe some one like Swain but he uses mana to keep his sustain up). Also for trying to defend Life steal's side with the fact that you have to "buy" it...You can get 2% from Masteries, up to 4.5% from Runes and then every ADC buys item 1055 so if you wanted to you could have 10% life steal at level 1 at the start of the game, yes it's not that strong at that point but it still does go off of every auto attack. Then don't forget that the most used keystone of ADCs is Warlord's Bloodlust which can give you up to 20% life steal based on missing hp.

I'm not replying trying to say that life steal is OP or anything, I'm just mentioning it because you never said anything about runes/masteries/keystones or the fact that sustain based champions are gated by CDs or Mana while ADCs are basically gated by auto attacking and buying more if they wanted more LS.

And they'd sacrifice quite a bit to take that 4.5% LS, and even then non of this applies because that's not an example of "burst healing," which is what's often complained about. Also, the Swain example, you failed to mention that his passive returns mana. But in general, I don't mention these things because they don't apply or are relatively insignificant as far as the argument goes.

Dark Nephthys3 votes

{quoted}

And they'd sacrifice quite a bit to take that 4.5% LS, and even then non of this applies because that's not an example of "burst healing," which is what's often complained about. Also, the Swain example, you failed to mention that his passive returns mana. But in general, I don't mention these things because they don't apply or are relatively insignificant as far as the argument goes.

I wouldn't say they sacrificed a lot to get the 4.5% LS since it's only about 7 AD which would put the average ADC at like 70 AD at level 1 (Other then obvious low base ad ADCs like MissFortune ). But I do get what you're saying. I honestly only really see people complaining about Life Steal for Graves because of the way his damage/LS works and he does build a few life steal items (usually item 3812 and some times item 3072 + Warrior's Bloodlust) but that is also added on Skirmisher's + item 3046 so he is able to tank and drain through fights more than other ADCs. I never had a problem with LS or anything, but even I would complain some times when facing Graves...

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L91EdeZF,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-02-01T03:10:21.384+0000)

I wouldn't say they sacrificed a lot to get the 4.5% LS since it's only about 7 AD which would put the average ADC at like 70 AD at level 1 (Other then obvious low base ad ADCs like MissFortune ). But I do get what you're saying. I honestly only really see people complaining about Life Steal for Graves because of the way his damage/LS works and he does build a few life steal items (usually item 3812 and some times item 3072 + Warrior's Bloodlust) but that is also added on Skirmisher's + item 3046 so he is able to tank and drain through fights more than other ADCs. I never had a problem with LS or anything, but even I would complain some times when facing Graves...

They usually rather prefer AS quints to AD quints actually. And Graves is another outlier. I don't even consider him an ADC anymore, not in the traditional sense at least.

WoonStruck1 votes

I don't understand why people are downvoting you.

Denial maybe?

Lifesteal isn't the issue, Keystones/masteries are, just like with every other problem in LoL atm.

WoonStruck8 votes

I'd say that the issue is ADCs getting lifesteal for free via Warlord's Bloodlust.

Masteries are the problem in this case (as with almost every other case in LoL atm), not really lifesteal.


If ADCs actually bought lifesteal, setting back their attack speed or crit scaling, you might have a point.

Most don't, however.

Over Innsmouth2 votes

This, basically. You get to sit on a free potential Bloodthirster, which has saved ADCs I've been trying to kill and myself as an ADC more times than I can count before I've bought any Lifesteal beyond Dorans Blade.

And that's total bullshit.

The class already gets ranged DPS, multiplicative scaling with they way Crit, AS, and AD bleed into each other, and hyperscales better than almost everything else in the game. Don't give them healing too.

Skelenth6 votes

They still get Warlords Bloodlust which basically is a free BT. Also the two best lifesteal items item 3812item 3072 also give the highest possible AD (+75) and two very useful passives aswell.

Also, most innate healers are balanced around their healing and get utterly destroyed by Grievous Wounds. The moment I see Mundo in toplane I just get those 800g into an Executioners Calling and his day, game, hopes, dreams and any plans for a family will drown in the rivers of blood he will puke after I'm done with him. That's how shitty heal-based champions are.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

They still get Warlords Bloodlust which basically is a free BT. Also the two best lifesteal items item 3812item 3072 also give the highest possible AD (+75) and two very useful passives aswell.

Also, most innate healers are balanced around their healing and get utterly destroyed by Grievous Wounds. The moment I see Mundo in toplane I just get those 800g into an Executioners Calling and his day, game, hopes, dreams and any plans for a family will drown in the rivers of blood he will puke after I'm done with him. That's how shitty heal-based champions are.

lmao okay? Mundo is just going to walk away and heal.

And ADCs literally never purchase warlords because it's designed for casters, not ADCs. So that statement in itself is incorrect. And again, an ADC has to actually buy the lifesteal stat and typically that would be much better served as either a defensive item or another crit item. BT is almost always purchased as a 3rd item at the least and this doesn't even include the fact that the 300 armor Nautilus/Poppy/Maokai are laughing hilariously at this until you have %armor pen and EVEN THEN, the lifesteal will be significantly reduced. And guess what works on ADCs, with your own logic? Executioners calling or Morellos.

Skelenth2 votes

I didn't deny it would work on adcs aswell. What I was getting at that so much of heal-based champions power is gated in their own heal, which can then again be almost negated by one item.

Enlighten me: Why would I use Warlords Bloodlust, the Keystone Mastery that gives up to 20% lifesteal the lower your health is, not on an ADC, who uses basic attacks more often than anything else, but on a caster? Also, what I was trying to say is, ADCs don't give up on damage when they buy lifesteal, because the lifesteal items they will get would also be the best choices in terms of AD.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

I didn't deny it would work on adcs aswell. What I was getting at that so much of heal-based champions power is gated in their own heal, which can then again be almost negated by one item.

Enlighten me: Why would I use Warlords Bloodlust, the Keystone Mastery that gives up to 20% lifesteal the lower your health is, not on an ADC, who uses basic attacks more often than anything else, but on a caster? Also, what I was trying to say is, ADCs don't give up on damage when they buy lifesteal, because the lifesteal items they will get would also be the best choices in terms of AD.

I typo'D, my apologies. I meant ADCs never buy item 3812 because it's meant for casters, not warlords. I didn't address warlords because it doesn't apply since it isn't responsible for burst healing. And it's not a "free BT," because they have to use their keystone for it and it requires them to be low on HP for it to be most effective, and this is on a low HP pool/low resistances class.

Lifesteal items do grant AD but so does IE and the Last Whisper upgrades. And between those two items, you want to maximize crit and AS, something lifesteal won't grant aside from botrk (which has its uses on a few ADCs admittedly but that's because of isolated synergies, not a general example). It's why you don't see BT or Botrk that often. Frankly, I'm surprised people are complaining about lifesteal because I rarely see it.

Mizaya2 votes

{quoted}

They still get Warlords Bloodlust which basically is a free BT. Also the two best lifesteal items item 3812item 3072 also give the highest possible AD (+75) and two very useful passives aswell.

Also, most innate healers are balanced around their healing and get utterly destroyed by Grievous Wounds. The moment I see Mundo in toplane I just get those 800g into an Executioners Calling and his day, game, hopes, dreams and any plans for a family will drown in the rivers of blood he will puke after I'm done with him. That's how shitty heal-based champions are.

Not really, the lifesteal is valued at 750 at best, and against minions you're looking at 1/4 of that, which in reality won't ever happen much at all. Bloodthirster is 3000 more gold.

Warlords heals based on missing health, it only really kicks in once you're low and really doesn't do much against anything but champs. Like bloodthirster, the healing isn't really noticable until you get crit + ad + as + armor pen if you're hitting a tank. So it won't give you much early game, it's not some sort of huge advantage you get because you got lifesteal in a mastery. Keep in mind, a long time ago you could get a vamp scepter for 450 and essentially have warlords without the reduced healing on minions.

Over Innsmouth6 votes

ADCs have to buy their healing

This was true before Warlords Bloodlust was a thing, and ADCs were sitting on the potential to have a goldless Bloodthirster.

Innate healers don't have to buy their healing stats

Except they do. You want to heal properly on Vladimir/Swain/Fiddlesticks? You're buying AP. Building tanky on those Champions will just mean you have a bigger health pool, but you have no stats to fill it properly. Mundo is pushed into only building health items, because his healing scales directly off it. If the enemy has three autoattackers and you really want to buy Thornmail, you're cutting your own Champs innate potential to heal.

What irks me most about ADCs having Lifesteal at all is that they outclass dedicated healer Champions once they buy it, because their healing also scales of crit, AS, and AD. My lategame draintank fantasy gets ruined when I see Caitlyn and her Runaans heal up her entire health bar over the course of half a minion wave, in the same time it takes for Vladimir to get a single Q off.

Into The Aether1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L91EdeZF,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-02-01T11:38:46.939+0000)

This was true before Warlords Bloodlust was a thing, and ADCs were sitting on the potential to have a goldless Bloodthirster.

Except they do. You want to heal properly on Vladimir/Swain/Fiddlesticks? You're buying AP. Building tanky on those Champions will just mean you have a bigger health pool, but you have no stats to fill it properly. Mundo is pushed into only building health items, because his healing scales directly off it. If the enemy has three autoattackers and you really want to buy Thornmail, you're cutting your own Champs innate potential to heal.

What irks me most about ADCs having Lifesteal at all is that they outclass dedicated healer Champions once they buy it, because their healing also scales of crit, AS, and AD. My lategame draintank fantasy gets ruined when I see Caitlyn and her Runaans heal up her entire health bar over the course of half a minion wave, in the same time it takes for Vladimir to get a single Q off.

Mundo can buy non-health. Armor/MR scale the value of the health he has. Armor/MR scale the value of what he heals. You're deceiving yourself into thinking there's a form of synergy there that isn't. He has the same basic, balanced relationship with those stats that other tanks do. The best argument for a health bias for him are his flat, non-% ability costs, and the bit of scaling on his E. Neither would prevent me from buying a Thornmail if I felt I really needed it.

At max rank, Swain/Fiddlesticks need 400-450 AP just for half of the healing to come from items. So for most of the game, the majority of it is built in. Not to mention they're building at least some AP anyway. It's not a healing specific purchase. Additionally, tanky stats do still scale the value of heals for other champions as well, and higher general toughness makes it easier to live long enough for those heals to actually function.

As for a goldless Bloodthirster, it only hits 20% lifesteal against champions, and only at 20% health. Most of the time, including most of almost any specific fight that actually happens, it's much less impressive than Bloodthirster. Letting it peak at low health is a gimmick to try to have it actually be useful, without being traditional long term sustain. If it doesn't succeed at saving people at low health, it has no reason to exist.

Put differently, even draining at very high rates, ADCs can still die.

If drain tanks could drain as well as ADCS, but also spend the gold ADCs put into offense into defense instead, they'd be unkillable.

Rivuo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L91EdeZF,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-02-01T11:38:46.939+0000)

This was true before Warlords Bloodlust was a thing, and ADCs were sitting on the potential to have a goldless Bloodthirster.

Except they do. You want to heal properly on Vladimir/Swain/Fiddlesticks? You're buying AP.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/ what

Mordepool3 votes

But now, you probably only see BTs roughly 60% of the time

http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/items/most-purchased

Bloodthirster is the 2nd most popular item. Your theory about sacrificing damage for lifesteal is BS.

doublelift fg3 votes

warlord should be removed

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Love you hatedaddy <3

Silmaril2 votes

Honestly, the biggest issue that I see fairly commonly about lifesteal that I actually agree with is how powerful it is outside of PvP combat.

In PvP situations I think it's balanced fairly. It's the only version of sustain (beside spell vamp) that is naturally reduced by itemization and leveling, has a fairly low effective range (AA range for a typical ADC is often a risky spot to be), and is easily interrupted by the opponent either CCing them or forcing a reposition, so lifesteal is very rarely operating in an efficient or optimal manner relative to most other forms of healing.

The problem with it comes once a fight is done, because shooting creeps doesn't have any of those issues (no armor, can't CC or threaten an ADC, etc), and I think this is where the "free" nature of lifesteal becomes more of an issue. Someone like Swain or DrMundo for example can sustain between fights, but both have flat healing values that aren't affected much by being in combat and pay the same cost for their healing, but lifesteal can be applied significantly more optimally, so when it's balanced for in-combat situations (which I believe to be true currently), it tends to bloat out of control between fights.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Nice post.

PhantomGG1 votes

I dont even see BT 60 percent of the time, i roughly only see it 10 percent for bork is simply to valueable a item, and Hydra is so much cheaper.

this is typically the meta build for adcs atm

start-item 1055 item 2010 item 3340

First back- item 1083 item 1001 item 2055 (assuming you didn't Cs well or lost lane)

First Rush- item 1038 item 3086

Early Game- item 3006 item 3031 item 3085

Mid game- item 3006 item 3031 item 3085 item 3035 item 3153

Late Game/Full Build- item 3006 item 3031 item 3085 item 3036 item 3153 item 3139

Boots can be swapped for defensive stats, hurricane is dependant on the adc, sometimes its a Shiv or a Rapid fire canon, and than you want lord doms and bork to kill the tanks, and lastly a QSS to survive the unlimited cc tanks have.

This season this is the most optimal build to survive and kills tanks with.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

I dont even see BT 60 percent of the time, i roughly only see it 10 percent for bork is simply to valueable a item, and Hydra is so much cheaper.

this is typically the meta build for adcs atm

start-item 1055 item 2010 item 3340

First back- item 1083 item 1001 item 2055 (assuming you didn't Cs well or lost lane)

First Rush- item 1038 item 3086

Early Game- item 3006 item 3031 item 3085

Mid game- item 3006 item 3031 item 3085 item 3035 item 3153

Late Game/Full Build- item 3006 item 3031 item 3085 item 3036 item 3153 item 3139

Boots can be swapped for defensive stats, hurricane is dependant on the adc, sometimes its a Shiv or a Rapid fire canon, and than you want lord doms and bork to kill the tanks, and lastly a QSS to survive the unlimited cc tanks have.

This season this is the most optimal build to survive and kills tanks with.

And that build would take forever to scale with, not to mention still wouldn't lifesteal tank too hard vs tanks. And it leaves them extremely susceptible to burst. I think Banshees, Maw or even GA would be better than Mecurals unless there's something clearly worth cleansing.

PhantomGG1 votes

{quoted}

And that build would take forever to scale with, not to mention still wouldn't lifesteal tank too hard vs tanks. And it leaves them extremely susceptible to burst. I think Banshees, Maw or even GA would be better than Mecurals unless there's something clearly worth cleansing.

You say that but it's also the fastest scaling build atm. For adcs like Jinx/Caitlyn have no choice to build Hurricane and combo it with Infinity Edge, you are legitmately stupid if you dont.

However at this point The tanks are ruining your life, and now you need some way to kill them, your only options being either last whisper or bork. Than by the time you completely the last whisper or the bork, you still don't have enough penetration, so you need the other.

So no matter what you do, near the mid game your build is going to look like this on most adcs.

item 3006 item 3031 item 3085 item 3035 item 3153

You need the bork for percent health damage, and you need the Lord Dominicks/last whisper for Shredding that armor.

Of course items like Hurricane, boots and QSS can alternate. But the core items, for adcs that they desperately need this year are once again.

item 3036 item 3153 item 3031 item 3086 Zeal item of choice

Sure on weird adcs like

Corki Draven Jhin Draven go very different paths, like a tri force or something. But point is, this season ADCS have a very tedious job where tanks are making their life a real hell.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

You say that but it's also the fastest scaling build atm. For adcs like Jinx/Caitlyn have no choice to build Hurricane and combo it with Infinity Edge, you are legitmately stupid if you dont.

However at this point The tanks are ruining your life, and now you need some way to kill them, your only options being either last whisper or bork. Than by the time you completely the last whisper or the bork, you still don't have enough penetration, so you need the other.

So no matter what you do, near the mid game your build is going to look like this on most adcs.

item 3006 item 3031 item 3085 item 3035 item 3153

You need the bork for percent health damage, and you need the Lord Dominicks/last whisper for Shredding that armor.

Of course items like Hurricane, boots and QSS can alternate. But the core items, for adcs that they desperately need this year are once again.

item 3036 item 3153 item 3031 item 3086 Zeal item of choice

Sure on weird adcs like

Corki Draven Jhin Draven go very different paths, like a tri force or something. But point is, this season ADCS have a very tedious job where tanks are making their life a real hell.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the build but I do disagree that the build you are referencing is a "mid game" build. That is not a mid game build.

Admiralhaddi1 votes

summoner 14 can stop healing.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

summoner 14 can stop healing.

What's ignites cooldown?

Toastersaot1 votes

I think the problem is Warlords. Warlord's Bloodlust basically gives that innate sustain component to champions who should have to spend gold on items to get healing. Yes they do sacrifice the damage they get with Fervor, but the 15% lifesteal from Warlords is in my opinion not supposed to be there in that champion's kit. If we look through every single ADC in the game, there is not ONE ADC who has innate healthsustain with in their kit. They all take Warlord's because it gives them that sustain they don't have.

Heck, even the ADC who doesn't go Bot Lane, Kindred, had the heal on her W removed.

YumaS2Astral3 votes

Warlord's Bloodlust is the reason why Yasuo is annoying to play against currently, and OP in some situations.

It is basically impossible to trade with Yasuo because between his passive shield, his in-lane mobility, and his windwall, it is difficult to do any damage to him unless you are a champion which rely on point-click spells. Even then, you have to deal with his sustain, which he shouldn't have, but he has because Warlord's Bloodlust exists.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

AFAIK, the best Yasuo's take Fervor because of how abusive your trades can be, with AA-Q-AA for 6 stacks very quickly.

Arakadia1 votes

You say ADC's have to buy their healing. But champions like Swain have garbage healing without items. And the healing is heavily tied to something like a Mundo ult, while ADC's have it tied to autos.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Fun part about swain is that is healing isn't even comparable to what adcs do with bt and warlords. 10% hp caitlyn who gets off one headshot auto will be at 70% while swain can only heal once per second per raven. So 5 times per second if he hits 5 champs.

Orangesilk1 votes

This is 100% false though:

Darius Illaoi are way burstier with their heals than ANY ADC anyways.

PB4UAME1 votes

5% missing hp is not a burst heal. . .

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