@Riot, I'm a little confused why does Riven, Yasuo, Garen and Katarina use no mana?

ninjaIRL ·Sep 22, 2015·4 votes·1,807 views

Just curious and confused why they get special treatment.

EDIT: Well I haven't been aggressive or have used obscene insults or swear words to anyone yet I'm being downvoted? I am open to discussion yet people don't reply and simply down vote me? I don't understand. People QQ when other people QQ swearing like a hobo.

I've been as genuine and as open as anyone possibly can but no one wants an open discussion which is the whole entire point of being on the forums.

49 Comments

colesySep 22, 20154 votes

because... they're balanced around it?

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20152 votes

How is someone like Riven balanced around it? She has one the most oppressive lane phases if she gets you low or gets a kill. She has no mana so she can keep doing it 24/7 with a Ravenous Hydra just for the heals. All her abilities are great, AoE stun, AoE knock-up AoE execute all with no costs all of which deal as much damage or even more than the next top laner who uses mana.

I think it's just lazy design. If they can allow someone like Riven to have zero cost then why isn't every champion balanced around having zero cost?

Baseball3bSep 22, 20154 votes

Have you ever played as Riven against a good Kennen? Then you can talk to me about an oppressive lane phase.

She has plenty of ways to counterbuild, counter pick and out play her. In fact, she's currently on the weaker side at the moment

CrettSep 22, 20151 votes

the above is true, but she's still an obnoxious champion to play against lol

Baseball3bSep 22, 20151 votes

I'm not denying she is, but all lane bullies are. They're necessary to the game though, otherwise you'd see hyper-scaling late game champs every game (I'm looking at you Vayne)

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20151 votes

Well you got counterpicked however that doesn't constitute counter play. You can flash Riven's combos but other than that, you can try to kite her which she's heavily resistance at doing. Riven can easily counter build armor with arm pen ( item 3035 item 3142 ).

Baseball3bSep 22, 20152 votes

If she rushes armor pen first, then she's sacrificing sustain for it which you can then abuse and poke her down. Assuming you're talking about playing a ranged champion when kiting, you're forcing her to blow at least two of her spells just to reach you which constitutes a pretty sizable chunk of damage.

I'm not denying she's obnoxious--she most definitely is, but all lane bullies are. Lane bullies in general are necessary though otherwise you'd see hyper-scaling late game champs every game (I'm looking at you Vayne). You don't win lane against Riven by killing her, you win it by surviving and outscaling her. An underfed Riven in teamfights is laughable and just going even or slightly behind in lane against her means you'll contribute more to teamfights than her 9 times out of 10.

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20151 votes

If you aren't building armor then she'll just buy Hydra, duh? I already mentioned that in my previous comment. She'll just get Ravenous Hydra if you aren't building armor. Which you probably should. It's not hard to get items for her because she's innately oppressive so she can free farm for the majority of the time, per back.

Baseball3bSep 22, 20152 votes

Which is why I said that if you build armor, it forces her to rush armor pen, which means she doesn't have any sustain whatsoever and you can capitalize on that. I never said not to build armor. You can complain about sustain for just about every top laner ever though. A vast majority rush Hydra or have some kind of sustain built in.

Again, your job when laning against her is to survive because come teamfights, you'll most likely contribute a lot more than her.

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20151 votes

Thanks m8.

Got past all that hate and managed to get something out of this heavily downvoted post.

Every single post I've read about Riven is always seen as some sort of QQ post which most are, but the genuine ones are always downvoted for no reason.

I understand now thank you.

Baseball3bSep 22, 20152 votes

No problem.

Honestly I found that the best way to learn how to play against her is to play her. (Eventually I took a liking to her kit and can't stop playing her now)

Always good to see actual discussion happening on the boards

The Yetii RiderSep 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

because... they're balanced around it?

Riven is balanced, you heard it here ladies and gentlemen. The champion who is so feast or famine her mains are LITERALLY more likely to afk from a game than any other champion, is balanced.

colesySep 22, 20151 votes

oh look, another unskilled player who doesn't bother to make the effort to learn how to play against riven and would rather just call her broken instead.

The Sword SaintSep 22, 20154 votes

Because this question is asked over and over and over and over. It doesn't matter how many 9 paragraph essays I or anyone else write on the topic, people like you never bother to search the forum and find the dozens of well articulated explanations about things like this.

Short version: whether a champion uses mana, or rage, or energy, or flow, or heat, or no resource, or whatever is 100% due to how the designers want the champion to be played. A champion's kit numbers are balanced around their resource, not the other way around.

If you want to know more, do some research.

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20151 votes

Some explanations thank you.

Meep ManSep 22, 20153 votes

I think it's due to all of them (except Garen) having their play style revolved around constantly using abilities. I mean a LOT! Especially Kat.

Archon XSep 22, 20152 votes

Because they're not using magic.

5000000000000000Sep 22, 20154 votes

It's not just because of thematic.

Unless you consider Vayne's tumble as magic.

Rustling BushSep 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

It's not just because of thematic.

Unless you consider Vayne's tumble as magic.

wel... where does the attack speed buff come from then HMMMMMM checkmate atheist

Archon XSep 22, 20151 votes

it's magical accuracy, like Caitlyn's ult.

RawEchoesSep 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's not just because of thematic.

Unless you consider Vayne's tumble as magic.

Ay dont mock the tumble, something about it is magical, you can just tell when you dodge that last morgana binding to secure the penta.

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20151 votes

Vayne Tumble. Lucian dash. Graves's dash. Fizz pole. Alistar Q and W. Darius's spin. Fiora Q and E. Sejuani Q. Trundle's Bite. Quinn's jump.

etc.

Archon XSep 22, 20151 votes

Lucian uses mana because he shouldn't be able to aa twice after an ability under normal circumstances, it's magic.

Alistar, when's the last time you've seen something hit the ground and something next to it pops up unless it's a cartoon, it's magic.

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20151 votes

What in League of Legends is not magic then?

FowusSep 22, 20152 votes

is swinging your sword magic

Stiv1234Sep 22, 20152 votes

It is as much magic as drawing your bow Varus .

Archon XSep 22, 20151 votes

yeah but he's shooting an arrow way further than should be possible, hmm must be magical range

5000000000000000Sep 22, 20152 votes

Garen is supposed to be someone who stays in lane forever. Riven is supposed to spam spells and weave AA in her combos (not sure animation cancel is intentional part of her kit though). Katarina needs to get resets and spam spells. This is practically impossible with mana (although it's probably possible to use temporary no-cost mechanic, it would take a full rework to make her a mana champion). Yasuo is supposed to use his Q like his AA, so that playstyle wouldn't be possible with mana.

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20151 votes

Riven's animation cancelling is actually a bug too popular to be removed. She has manaless AoE knock-up, AoE stun, AoE execute overall AoE damage, none of which deal any less damage or stop after reaching first target enemy hit with a decent amount of shields which can block entire abilities early to late game. She has as much sustain as a Wukong with a Ravenous Hydra because animation cancelling allows her to keep up the heals - something all competent Rivens know how to do. I don't get why she simply has mana so she has to back or use mana potions for her costs.

Katarina could easily have as much mana costs as a Diana and she would still be playable, in fact her items would vary a lot more because she can finally use mana and mana regen. Unlike other manaless champions she doesn't get innate sustain so she is probably the most tame of all manaless champs. Yasuo's Q should use mana. Once mid game hits he can stay in the map as long as he wants. Because of his shield and lifesteal items like Botrk. His E should cost small amounts of mana which could be refundable. He overall uses a technique that is otherworldy, wind technique is not something as mundane as a Vayne tumble or a lucian E.

Baseball3bSep 22, 20152 votes

Riven also has one of the lowest hp/5 stats in the game so no, she doesn't have a lot of sustain.

Generally hydra is bought 2nd in most match ups which gives a pretty big window of opportunity to abuse it.

CHEAT ENGINE ssdSep 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Garen is supposed to be someone who stays in lane forever. Riven is supposed to spam spells and weave AA in her combos (not sure animation cancel is intentional part of her kit though). Katarina needs to get resets and spam spells. This is practically impossible with mana (although it's probably possible to use temporary no-cost mechanic, it would take a full rework to make her a mana champion). Yasuo is supposed to use his Q like his AA, so that playstyle wouldn't be possible with mana.

Lots of champs spam spells. Poor old Morde uses up his life to do so. You reason for Yasou is the stupidest shit I've read. Hello Skarner, Evelyn, Karthus

Indominus BladeSep 22, 20152 votes

Downvote and move on, pointless QQ thread.

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20151 votes

Actually I'm genuine. Please explain.

Indominus BladeSep 22, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=ninjaIRL ,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L7mrPd7x,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-09-22T13:06:59.560+0000)

Actually I'm genuine. Please explain.

Those champs are balanced, katarina and riven might actually need some minor (qol) buffs to be able to compete with others. Top 10 champions atm with highest winrate are dominated by MANA USERS and mages.

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20151 votes

+1 Mana users aren't dominating, they are simply top tier at the moment.

LaserDeathBladeSep 23, 20152 votes

Oftentimes these abilities are so integral to a champion's play style that there'd realistically be no reason to tie them to a mana cost.

Think about Nasus: His Q is extremely integral to the champion to the point it might as well be considered his basic attack - given that: his Q cost is so low that it's virtually manaless, you're not going to go OOM by spamming just his Q beyond early game even with CDR and he's not going to be overbearing by just spamming his Q because it's part of his basic identity. I would venture that Nasus with only his Q should be manaless, except his E and W aren't 'essential' to his core play style and when spammed they can quickly make his presence overbearing, thus they have significant mana costs and drive him oom very quickly.

For similar reason, Imagine Yasuo were Nasus where his E and Q are essentially his 'basic attack'. That would mean the only things that 'drained' him would be WW and Ult, but his CDs on those abilities are so long that they'd realistically never make him go OOM so he might as well have no mana period.

RozairSep 22, 20151 votes

Don't forget about Aatrox renekton Akali zed shen Lee ect

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20151 votes

They have costs which is good they have ability limits. Energy based champs typically can't use all their three abilities in rotation no more than twice.

Health costing champions have weaknesses in early game where they don't have enough spell vamp/lifesteal or general damage to make that spell vamp good enough. Mundo kinda virtually becomes costless once he gets something like a Warmog's + his level 6 ult.

Mr Broken WingsSep 22, 20151 votes

AD manaitemization like manamune would be pretty good on riven, be happy she cant use it. Also yasuo and rivens kit are designed around spamming, without that they would be hyper useless so riot gave them no ressource. Imagine yasuo only being able to q 10x before going oom, he couldnt do anything. Rven completly relies on her e for trades, if you restrict her from using it effectivly in lane you would need to compensate her with big buffs actually.

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20151 votes

They can give 100% mana refund like other spammable abilities like irelia's Q, or Malzahar's E. I'm still not convinced. As you said, she can use manamune to keep up her mana so she can last in lane longer. Her being unable to use E because she has a mana cost doesn't really mean anything. There is also item 3508 which I imagine would become somewhat core on her if she did use mana due to all the basic attacking you need to do inbetween abilities. Yasuo works with that as well.

The Sword SaintSep 22, 20151 votes

Riven is designed to require the use of all three basic abilities any time she wants to trade, unlike other champions who can harass with one ability. The first part of her kit they decided on as 'no resource' and then everything else comes after.

CHEAT ENGINE ssdSep 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L7mrPd7x,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-09-22T15:57:04.141+0000)

Riven is designed to require the use of all three basic abilities any time she wants to trade, unlike other champions who can harass with one ability. The first part of her kit they decided on as 'no resource' and then everything else comes after.

Galio is telling you to go fuck yourself

CrettSep 22, 20151 votes

In Katarina's case, low impact individual abilities and most importantly, Resets

Broken champion tho