Wolf should be more impactful and be as interactive as Lamb.

ninjaIRL ··47 votes·3,769 views

The concept(s) here is just a quick written idea but the mechanics I would love Kindred to have should be somewhat similar. The numbers can be tweaked for sure.


Point 1: Instead of a three shot after Lamb's dash, Lamb should shoot an empowered damaging arrow that marks the target for Wolf. So you dash then autoattack for the mark.

Kindred's Q should have Wolf attack the nearest marked enemy X amount of times; sticking to the same target until Wolf returns. X is equal to the number of attackable units enemies, monsters, pets, wards, teemo shrooms etc. surrounding the target (210 range). Each Wolf attack does 100% of Lamb's AD, benefits from attack speed and can crit, similarly. Lamb now deals 80% of her AD and cannot crit for the duration that Wolf is attacking as long as this ability causes it. Cooldown increased to 13 seconds from 9 seconds. Cooldown is reduced to 9 once Wolf has unleashed all attacks. If the target dies before all Wolf attacks are spent then Wolf unleashes the remaining attacks on any nearby enemy (300 range.) Any other abilities used during Wolf attacking because of this ability replaces the next attack(s) that Wolf would do.


Point 2: It would have been really cool if Wolf shared the health bar feature when he's attacking, something like. *Wolf borrows 30% of Lamb's maximum health as well as gaining 20% innate lifesteal for himself only. If Wolf 'dies' he can't be used for Y amount of seconds. This could be used in a way that if Lamb "dies" whilst Wolf is attack, Wolf can transfer his health back to Lamb and "revive" Lamb. Then he proceeds to swirl around her. * This could be put somewhere in Kindred's kit.


Point 3: Right now it seems like Lamb is the main feature, it doesn't seem like a 50/50 split of work. Especially because Lamb is the one that has the health bar atop her head so people will focus on her more in teamfights. It's like Azir and his soldiers. No one will be able to interact with Wolf because you can't hurt him. So the idea of them working together is there but the idea that they are one and the same champion isn't.


Point 4: The name of the ultimate should be changed so that it doesn't seem like Lamb casts the spell. Kindred (Lamb and Wolf) should cast this spell. Don't call it "Lamb's Respite." It's the ultimate so it should account both Lamb and Wolf in its name and animations.


I really hope that Wolf is not just another Azir soldier when Kindred comes out. I would love for him to be attackable in anyway as well.

I'm posting this now because it would be easier for Riot to make changes before a champion comes out in live.

EDIT: I do love the champion. It's just that I feel like Wolf should do more and should also be more. I'm also keeping in mind that Kindred is already somewhat finished in design so I don't want to conjure up any animation changes that are too big to create. If this idea was implemented that is.

EDIT: Shadowfire is perfect.

62 Comments

AtheosisX17 votes

Wolf really just feels like a pet like Pix. It's pretty lame.

Tartoken2 votes

Yeah, I feel the same way. One thing they must try and change with Kindred is its Ulti, making it able to heal the other team can be a massive waste of mana and cooldown

ninjaIRL 2 votes

I think that's part of the point. I think they can still move around during the 'stasis' and get out so when they do try to get out you can finish them off. Timing the ability so that Soraka's ultimate doesn't do anything is also part of the gameplay.

ninjaIRL 3 votes

I haven't played Kindred but I have a feeling that if he was released exactly as he is right now Wolf will be like Pix. Kind of there but not really. There's nothing you can do to Wolf if he decides to move around it's kind of ehh. Watching Pix will probably still have a bigger impact on gamplay when Kindred comes out because of Lulu's skillshot ability. You can juke Lulu's own abilities, like dodge them if you are facing the right way. It's also useful to watch Pix because you could be a support trying to body block your 20 health ADC and they die because Pix was on you and Lulu had an easy shot on them: things like that.

Tartoken15 votes

I like Kindred anyway at the moment, but I would honestly like more action from wolf

kJs5 votes

Him having health like OP stated would be great for this! People would actually be able to interact with Wolf in some way other than just try to run away from him.

Tartoken3 votes

I absolutely agree, it makes me wonder why riot decided to make Wolf into a pet rather than a two-in-one champ, that would be one of the greatest champion concepts ever made and it would distribute the unskilled Kindred players from the skilled Kindred players, kindof like Yasuo at the moment. P.S. Kindred's second skin looks quite cool.

AtheosisX2 votes

{quoted}

I absolutely agree, it makes me wonder why riot decided to make Wolf into a pet rather than a two-in-one champ, that would be one of the greatest champion concepts ever made and it would distribute the unskilled Kindred players from the skilled Kindred players, kindof like Yasuo at the moment. P.S. Kindred's second skin looks quite cool.

How they should have designed Kindred:

  1. Lamb is the character the player directly controls movement-wise, and her active abilities are heals and/or utility effects.

  2. Wolf follows lamb as with the current design, and is the character that auto-attacks with his active abilities being damaging and/or marking effects.

  3. Wolf and Lamb share a health pool and each can be attacked. Wolf has considerably more armor and magic resist however, so attacking Lamb would be far more preferable.

When you compare this concept to the current one, it's pretty obvious which one reflects a dual champion more. Riot totally missed the mark with this champ. It's too bad. I'd be totally excited for a true dual champ.

ninjaIRL 2 votes

A true dual champion would be Dha and Ma. You can find the player concept somewhere in these boards. What also hinders Dual champions is that you don't have multi-tasking in the game; as in being able to click one champion and unclicking them like you can in Dota 2.

AtheosisX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ninjaIRL ,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FTt7P32Y,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-09-16T13:38:39.546+0000)

A true dual champion would be Dha and Ma. You can find the player concept somewhere in these boards. What also hinders Dual champions is that you don't have multi-tasking in the game; as in being able to click one champion and unclicking them like you can in Dota 2.

Well they've said they will probably never do that, so no point in even bringing it up really.

ninjaIRL 1 votes

I didn't know they already said that. That sucks. I guess that's kind of the main obvious difference between League of Legends and Dota 2 so I get their point.

Tartoken2 votes

I have barely played Dota 2, so I don't know the champions. Is there a champion you can play dually?

ninjaIRL 1 votes

There is Meepo. He's a goblin like creature that everyone in Dota dislikes, sort of like Teemo.

You can split him up into 5 complete copies. Exact same abilities. They are all on separate cooldowns from other Meepos' abilities I'm pretty sure.

For a comparison, imagine Shaco's ultimate allowed him to split into five exact copies of himself, there is no definite original because they can all use abilities and if one dies all Shacos die.

As you can imagine it takes a lot of micro skills to play him in 3 separate lanes.

Tartoken1 votes

Oooh, that does sound cool, Although the difficulty must be off the charts. I guess he is all lanes in one?

ninjaIRL 1 votes

Not particularly. Each Meepo shares the exact same items so one can't tank whilst other can deal carry-like damage. He's a little squishy from memory.

Tartoken1 votes

Oh ok, I forgot about that :) I guess Kindred is still up in the air with just being released, but champions like Meepo could potentialy influence designs of future champions and such.

terkmc1 votes

They dont share the exact item. They share boots and stat, and that's it, no crit atk speed flat damage active passive no nothing. Even the stat share is sup-par without Agh

Nekolie2 votes

{quoted}

I have barely played Dota 2, so I don't know the champions. Is there a champion you can play dually?

There is also Chen who lets you take control of the neutral creeps and permanently treat them as pets. It would be kind of like being able to control grump, lizard, or the other large jungle monsters. All large Dota camp monsters have several unique abilities, like the centaur who has a war stomp AoE stun.

Tartoken1 votes

Oh cool, I might try out Dota 2 one day, although I would more than likely be worse at it than I am in League lol. Does anyone know when Kindred will be released for Live patch?

Tartoken2 votes

Yes I heard about DhaMa, I thought Kindred was originally based off of them or is that not true? Please tell me.

ninjaIRL 2 votes

I have no clue if Kindred was based off of DhaMa. Likely he isn't though. I don't know, I'd ask the designer on an AMA in reddit or something.

AtheosisX2 votes

{quoted}

Yes I heard about DhaMa, I thought Kindred was originally based off of them or is that not true? Please tell me.

Riot says no, but I don't fully believe them. I think there may have been some influence there. I think I would've preferred DhaMa to an archer with a pet personally.

Gostreiver1 votes

{quoted}

How they should have designed Kindred:

  1. Lamb is the character the player directly controls movement-wise, and her active abilities are heals and/or utility effects.

  2. Wolf follows lamb as with the current design, and is the character that auto-attacks with his active abilities being damaging and/or marking effects.

  3. Wolf and Lamb share a health pool and each can be attacked. Wolf has considerably more armor and magic resist however, so attacking Lamb would be far more preferable.

When you compare this concept to the current one, it's pretty obvious which one reflects a dual champion more. Riot totally missed the mark with this champ. It's too bad. I'd be totally excited for a true dual champ.

Way too much counterplay... As if a team or any ranged champion, wouldnt just Destroy Wolf every time Lamb uses it for Damage.. therefore melting her health bar, just for a bit of Harass.

She is a very squishy champion with an almost Tryndamere like undeath mechanic albeit much much shorter her design is just brilliant. Dont overthink it, she would get ruined if they shared a health bar.

AtheosisX1 votes

{quoted}

Way too much counterplay... As if a team or any ranged champion, wouldnt just Destroy Wolf every time Lamb uses it for Damage.. therefore melting her health bar, just for a bit of Harass.

She is a very squishy champion with an almost Tryndamere like undeath mechanic albeit much much shorter her design is just brilliant. Dont overthink it, she would get ruined if they shared a health bar.

Obviously they wouldn't have the same base stats or abilities and wouldn't be an ADC. In fact they would be kind of unclassifiable using standard classes. That's another reason I think it would be more interesting.

AutoreactiveCD41 votes

I feel Riot may be going for subtly here. This isn't a 2 in 1 champ it is one champion with 2 halves if that makes sense. Wolf does take part in their abilities plenty. One theory is that this is the grim reaper of their universe, Lamb is their to restrain wolf from mindlessly devouring everything and Wolf is there to make sure lamb does their job. You can also see it a different way. Dogs are used to protect livestock from predators such as wolves. In this case the wolf is there to protect the lamb.

TLDR: I think this champion is more deep than just a transform/2 in 1 champion.

Tartoken1 votes

Yes I think your right, I guess we will just have to wait and see what Riot has planned for Kindred

ninjaIRL 1 votes

Wolves don't protect Lambs. They kill and eat them. Wolves are vastly different to dogs. I think it should have been something like a stag rather than a lamb because stags or deers are at least agile.

Kindred is like Lulu and Pix pretty much except Pix's interaction with glitterlance is far more skill worthy than pressing W or getting the third autoattack.

AutoreactiveCD41 votes

I know wolves don't protect lambs in nature, which is what makes this relationship interesting. But dogs are descended from wolves, and both can be fiercely protective. And trust me lambs are agile enough, its just they prefer to be stupid and try to ram through everything.

ninjaIRL 1 votes

rofl prefer to be stupid I guess you've argued that well enough.

Ant Reformed1 votes

if they made wolf the main champion model, he'd work with items, stat buffs, and many other things, even if they balanced out the stats it'd be insanely broken, I AM OKAY WITH LAMB AS THE MAIN CHAMPION MODEL.

Tartoken1 votes

Yeah, I see what you mean. Personally, I think Riot did a good job of making the aesthetics of Kindred, but not very well on the mechanics. That is my only problem with the new champ. I will still get the new champ anyway, just to try it out. I saw a video of Kindred in action taking out Baron in less than 5 seconds approximately. This was with 400 AD, which surprised me alot, but Kindred will very likely be changed around a bit due to this.

Ant Reformed1 votes

TL;DR Kindred is not op, most thoughts on Kindred have been misguided through unrealistic videos

ALOT of people have seen videos like that, and the problem with those videos is, all of them farm bots for her passive stacks and get an unrealistic amount of stacks, I saw the "kindred one shots all" video shortly after it came out. I thought "WOW SHE IS OP" but, later I reviewed the video and realized that the person had 40 stacks of kindred's passive. The damage from that would amount to 50% current hp dmg per auto attack and 40% of that would be on wolf too, as baron does have a high amount of hp and the stacks of the passive were completely unrealistic I could see and relate to why everybody has the misconception of "kindred is op". But another thing to address that is the tendency of people to react to a new champion, or even most new things with extreme emotions. As an example peoples' reaction to bard was "what was rito thinking" instead of actually looking deep into the champion and finding their actual weaknesses and strengths.

Tartoken1 votes

Ah ok, now I get it. I didn't even think of that, thanks for bringing it up. It seems there are still a lot of things we haven't tried out on Kindred, mainly the fact that she hasn't been released, but one thing we do know is we still have lots of mystery behind Kindred's lore. I can't wait for that to come out

Soda Popkillski5 votes

Well the champs core design is already finished, so it's too late now.

Point 4: "Lambs respite" is the keeper of life, while wolf is the symbol of death, so it definitely wouldn't fit to have his name in it.

Point 3: This wouldn't allow it to be used at low health. And giving him an actual seperate healthbar would make kindred really frustrating to play as against bursty champs, as they can just remove her main ability so easily.

ninjaIRL 3 votes

Point 4: Then have it as "equilibrium" or something like that. Cliché but it would work. This further accentuates why Kindred's kit isn't designed to even be roughly 50/50 split of work between Lamb and Wolf.

Point 3: The idea that Wolf can be 'killed' should still be there though. The concept I made is as I said completely unrefined. Unfinished. It's just a quick write. Wolf can counter burst with some tanky base stats so that he takes an extra time to kill. Lamb will still be able to attack as usual and crit if Wolf isn't attacking because of (my concept's) Q. It requires timing sure, but I think it's a step in the right direction of a dual champion theme like Kindred.

These are just what I strongly feel about Kindred. These are what I think would make him fit his duality better. These aren't facts so I wouldn't be too bummed if they didn't implement changes that make Wolf do more work other than just be yet another automatically autoattacking sandsoldier-like character.

Soda Popkillski1 votes

Point 4: Well why can its W be called "wolf's frienzy", while the ult has to be named something inbetween? While it may be an ult, ults are no more special than basic abilities. They may be stronger but they have signifigantly higher cooldowns.

Point 3: Why should it be killed? What's the reason for it? It would only make kindred generally frustrating to play, and not improve much at all, due to it already having huge counterplay with how you can so easily walk out.

Why are you calling it his? I'm pretty sure Lamb is a girl as the voiceovers definitely do not sound like a male. I guess surrender@20 may have confused you though, as it said "he" there.

I really don't get how doing this would make wolf any more special. Making the ult something that has nothing to do with any of them would solely make lamb less of a unit, instead of making wolf more of a unit. And wolf being killable would really just make him a pet instead, as he would have to have a smaller healthbar and would have to respawn immediately after dying.

Sorry if this seems kind of negative and/or mean. I don't mean it that way.

ninjaIRL 2 votes

I didn't think he'd end up pet like. Wolf would have a decent amount of innate lifesteal to survive getting hit by abilities. The feature that I believed would make him more special is that Wolf could be used as a healing capsule as he will return to Lamb after autoattacking targets. This means that if you use Wolf to attack whilst Lamb is in a low enough health to 'die' from getting a % of her max health borrowed by Wolf then she can use Wolf as a revive capsule if team mates manage to save Kindred (Wolf) in time.

I was thinking something along those lines.

If the double healthbar was implemnted in W instead then it will probably work far better than if it was implemented into her Q I guess.

Soda Popkillski1 votes

Still a pet. And they are 1 unit, they die as 1.

ninjaIRL 2 votes

Who says they have to die as one? Think outside the rules.

PhilDanger3 votes

I like your changes and I also feel that Wolf is lackluster in the current implementation.

You could pretty much remove Wolf and have 0 impact on the kit in the current implementation (keep the numbers but have Lamb do a unique animation instead of having Wolf animate).

The part that I dislike the most about the kit is the ultimate. Don't get me wrong, the ultimate is SUPER powerful but it just doesn't seem to go well with Kindred as a whole. The ult fits well with Lamb but Wolf is nowhere to be seen during the entire 4 second duration. Wolf should be doing stuff during the ultimate. Have him occasionally lash out at an enemy within the radius during the duration. Or just make the Ult an empowered W where enemies can't die within the circle but they're still taking increased damage because Wolf is also attacking anyone you are.

Ideally, when the ult is cast I would like Lamb to kind of etherally disappear as if Lamb's spirit is the embodiment of the protective circle. The player would then control wolf and attack any enemies within the circle. If Wolf leaves the circle then it is broken and the player regains control of Lamb. This gives the destructive power of Wolf but also the protection of Lamb.

Big Lincoln2 votes

i'd honestly just replace her E with something like a vector-aim skillshot with caveats to it

Something like an inner range where Wolf travels quickly but only hits X amount of units before stopping or does X% reduced damage, and then an outer range where Wolf "winds up" (Lamb is free to move) before he goes for the damage.

~~If cast while Wolf's Frenzy is active, then the maximum range takes Lamb's current position into consideration; if it exceeds the maximum range, then Wolf returns to where he was when Wolf's Frenzy was cast. If not, then he travels to the end of the line. ~~

Maybe add a mark for everyone he hits so that Lamb is still able to interact with this spell other than telling Wolf where to strike?

EDIT: I'd actually just prefer them to just make her feel more 'fluid.' The thing is that using her abilities makes her slow herself down. Making her able to AA while mid-Q, making E not force her to lose her DPS or making Wolf apply on-hits (including the first 2 procs to their E mark)/scale with Lamb's stats would make her feel a lot better in terms of gameplay.

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/sEVzz7uO-thoughts-on-kindred This is a good thread that I agree with a lot, it's mostly just the gameplay feelings that are bothering me. I think they just need to "synergize" a little better with their current kit.

Blue Moon Wolf2 votes

yea, Riot really needs to try and make sure Kindred feels like you're playing 2 champs for the price of one. I feel like the success or failure of their launch will be tied to how well this 2 in 1 champ mechanic plays out.

alfavhunter2 votes

Change the ults name to kindered spirits, the spirits of both lamb and wolf are involved then, keeping the target alive

During the ult kindered should have to stay inside of it while wolf circles it, no longer castanle on allies, but it would still keep all allies in it alive

Lastly add to it that if an enemy passes through wolf during this time they are stunned for .5 seconds (or feared)

Crett2 votes

"Lamb calls, Wolf strikes."

They may be a "two halves of a whole" champion, but Lamb seems to be the one calling the shots

Squarefighter1 votes

To me I think it's fine that wolf isn't as controllable. It's thematic, in a way.

ninjaIRL 3 votes

I just think the importance of the theme of a dual champion would get eroded overtime because the champion design as it is now will innately bring the players' attention, mostly, to Lamb as we grow accustom to Kindred. It doesn't particularly matter where Wolf is because all he is is damage output. Get out of his territory and you will be safe. Lamb becomes the focus in fights. If the Riot designer is fine with that then I guess power to him/her but I think it would undervalue the entire binary/duality theme that they were leading with in the trailers and even in the lore.

Bastard Chief1 votes

Giving Wolf and HP bar is the dumbest idea I have read so far. Facepalms, just why? Why should you give means for the enemy to still drop your HP. At end game, wolf would be dropped literally in one shot by anyone, especially a fed anyone, then you'd have to resummon him.

Azir absolutely needs his men as he's dependent upon them. If you could destroy them, then anyone could beat Azir easy with their eyes closed by just staying back til he brings out a troop, and then attacking that troop from range, and quickly bombarding in for a kill. (Despite Azir's low CD for summoning them, it's still a bitch slap in a face). It's like going against a Heimerdinger, except you can destroy his turrets, his main damage output, and that renders him almost useless tho not as useless as it would Azir.

If you are going to give Wolf a HP bar, then I suggest implement automatic damage repels. So if someone attacks wolf, then they lose life points for attacking him. So you gonna trade life points for life points, then i'd say it would be fair.

As it is, Kindred seems to be a low ranged ADC, so the chance to gap close them and kill them is easy. I will say Kindred would be a problem probably if fed, and would so work well rushing a target with Vayne, or Riven, or Kalista.

ninjaIRL 3 votes

Obviously Wolf would be designed to be tankier than Lamb, like benefiting from items X times more than Lamb to make him durable when he does come out to attack. You won't be able to attack him if he's not attacking anyone (i.e. swirling around Lamb). I also put in an innate lifesteal % in there, 20% is relatively strong over time probably needs more but I'm not going to try redesigning his whole kit with specific numbers, no time for that.

I was never disputing the fact that Azir's sandsoldiers shouldn't have health bars. His theme is that he is the leader, and emperor and that idea fits really well. It's that Kindred's Wolf shouldn't be another sand soldier because he is not some mindless servile. He has his own voice and personality in the lore even if Lamb and Wolf are technically one being. Wolf is as much of a character as Lamb and that should reflect in Kindred's kit. I feel that it doesn't because Lamb just orders Wolf around the place and as an opponent there is nothing you can do about it except drive Lamb away from Wolf's territory.

Bastard Chief1 votes

Sorry but it's a dumb idea giving Wolf a HP bar. That's my opinion and hopefully they never do.

I think you really don't understand as evident when you ignored the first paragraph of what I said. I will copy and paste it for you so you don't gotta go back to read and find it.

"Facepalms, just why? Why should you give means for the enemy to still drop your HP. At end game, wolf would be dropped literally in one shot by anyone, especially a fed anyone, then you'd have to resummon him."

You ignored this, and it is a fact that it would happen. Anyone fed, any late game match up will destroy and drop Wolf in one hit, Then that makes Lamb's W rendered useless, don't you understand that at all? If you gonna give him extra armor, and magic resist, it's going to have to be a big big big upwards stat like a thormail combined with cape, or something type of stats for him so he don't get screwed. Even then, he's going to go down quick, so it's just a dumb idea, I'm sorry.

ninjaIRL 1 votes

Obviously Wolf would be designed to be tankier than Lamb, like benefiting from items X times more than Lamb to make him durable when he does come out to attack. You won't be able to attack him if he's not attacking anyone (i.e. swirling around Lamb). I also put in an innate lifesteal % in there, 20% is relatively strong over time probably needs more but I'm not going to try redesigning his whole kit with specific numbers, no time for that.

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