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I wish Varus was more complex / interesting to play. Here are a variety of ideas to accomplish that:

HalcyonDweller··9 votes·820 views

Credit due:

First off I was inspired by these posts:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2Ojg2rTJ-varus-deserves-a-rework

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/Poml8QEs-rework-concept-varus-the-arrow-of-retribution

So there is credit due to both these users.

_ _

#Introduction:

I dislike it when champions have only 3 cast-able abilities. Especially if one of those abilities is an ultimate that you won't have access to until lvl 6. Varus is a perfect example of this, with his W, which is 100% just another passive. As such I'm proposing the following ideas as options to alleviate that.

Disclaimer: I do not think that power should be added to any champion willy-nilly. If the changes below add too much power to his kit, obviously Riot would nee to take power out of other parts of his kit. I don't want them to make him broken, I just want a more interesting kit to use.

_ _

#The ideas:

  • I think Blight should replace or combine with his existing passive, here's why:
  • Blight is core to his kit. It would make his kit both mechanically and thematically more cohesive.
  • The attack speed from killing a unit is gimicky and very restrictive in how you can use it. For a passive it's kind of meh, in a lot of ways.
  • If the existing passive is kept as well, it should instead grant Varus attack speed for proccing blight. Amount gained could scale with number of stacks procced. This would be much more cohesive with his theme of Blight.
  • EDIT 4: Maybe it should offer Varus additional on-hit damage against targets that have stacks of Blight on them.
  • Change W to be an active ability. Below are several different ideas for was to do so:
  1. Make it an auto-attack reset that empowers the auto-attack.
  2. Make it a buff that is consumed by his next spell or auto-attack.
  3. Make it steal movement speed from anyone hit by it. Lots of people didn't like this one.
  4. Make it so that it can spread blight to a nearby enemy if the target already has full stacks of blight.
  5. Make it so that a blighted enemy is slowed, amount increasing per stack of blight consumed. Similar to #3 above.
  6. EDIT 2: Make it some kind of ability that grants true-sight of enemies. (Credit goes to JWEBB0113). Maybe only work on enemies that have blight stacks on them, or have it area targeted.
  7. Make it a trap that applies blight somehow.
  8. EDIT 3: Make it increase Varus' auto-attack range for the attack (if it is an auto-attack empowering active) Credit to Teridax68
  • EDIT 1: Give Varus an ability that applies a DoT to the target (could be incorporated to work on the empowered auto-attack or spell from the W active recommendations list). Applying stacks of Blight over time. it can spread to enemies that come near the target. This could work with his existing ultimate, with minor changes, This already is essentially his ultimate with the spreading mechanic, or it could be made into a weaker ability for the new W. (Credit to MuzeT for the awesome idea of having a DoT like Malzahar's Maelphic Visions).
  • either have it transfer from the target to the enemy that comes within range (offers more counterplay since enemies can "save" their ally, or screw their teammate by bringing it to them)
  • or have it so that it simply spreads to those enemies in addition to the ally (more powerful version) Already part of his ultimate.
  • EDIT 3: Change Varus' E so that it increases Varus' auto-attack range only against targets standing in it's AoE. Credit to Teridax68
  • Which ideas did you like?
  • Which ideas did you dislike?
  • Do you have any ideas of your own to contribute?

Discuss in the comments below.

35 Comments

Teridax683 votes

Ideas I like in the OP:

  • Moving Blight to Varus's innate. I completely agree that this is Varus's real innate, and it defines his gameplay more than even his Q. I also agree that his current bonus AS passive doesn't have terribly amazing gameplay, and I'd be fine with seeing it go, and get replaced with something more interesting.
  • Turning W into an active. As a caster marksman, Varus should not have less than 3 basic ability actives to play with, and currently he gets a bit of downtime on his Blight detonations, as he's also made to build AS.

Ideas I'd oppose:

  • Giving Varus more crowd control. As a marksman, Varus is already significantly above the curve with the CC he can output, as he already has a slow and a root, and I feel there's so much CC saturation in the game already that we should be actively looking for ways of making effects more interesting that to not involve CC.
  • Giving Varus any way to enhance his mobility, including bonus movement speed. Varus is an immobile champion, that's a solid weakness, and I think he should keep it. I'd rather give Varus more reach than more mobility, and as with crowd control, I think the game already has so much mobility that we should not add more unless it's exceptionally valuable or necessary.

Here are some suggestions on my end:

  • After removing Varus's current innate, make his Q charge speed increase with bonus attack speed. Varus I think is a marksman who should be pushed to go hard on AS and CDR, rather than crit (which is currently mostly the case already), and having him speed up his poke would be a way of making him a little less slow as the game progresses.
  • Have the new W be a simple, fire-and-forget nuke. For example, Varus could target an area, fire an arrow there that would stick to the first enemy hit, and have it explode after a delay. That way, he could always have a way of detonating Blight, and making it AoE could allow it to combo with Hurricane for mass detonations. Giving Varus a whole set of long-ranged actives would solidify his place as a long-ranged marksman.
  • Change his E a bit: remove the Grievous Wounds, allow Varus to attack anyone on the blighted area regardless of his own distance from them (so he could use this to boost his autoattack range), and have the area only deal damage in the end or upon manual reactivation, kind of like a Gragas Q/Lux E. That way, it would also encourage Varus to fire at enemies from a distance, and the back-loaded damage would allow for better synergy with his innate, as he'd get to apply Blight first, then detonate it when he wants to.
HalcyonDweller2 votes

{quoted}

Ideas I like in the OP:

  • Moving Blight to Varus's innate. I completely agree that this is Varus's real innate, and it defines his gameplay more than even his Q. I also agree that his current bonus AS passive doesn't have terribly amazing gameplay, and I'd be fine with seeing it go, and get replaced with something more interesting.
  • Turning W into an active. As a caster marksman, Varus should not have less than 3 basic ability actives to play with, and currently he gets a bit of downtime on his Blight detonations, as he's also made to build AS.

Thanks! I agree, the way his kit works right now it is too clunky to be an interesting caster marksman kit.

Ideas I'd oppose:

  • Giving Varus more crowd control. As a marksman, Varus is already significantly above the curve with the CC he can output, as he already has a slow and a root, and I feel there's so much CC saturation in the game already that we should be actively looking for ways of making effects more interesting that to not involve CC.

That's a fair point, I see what you mean and I think that I agree for the most part. I think it might work if some of the cc or power was taken out of his ultimate though.

  • Giving Varus any way to enhance his mobility, including bonus movement speed. Varus is an immobile champion, that's a solid weakness, and I think he should keep it. I'd rather give Varus more reach than more mobility, and as with crowd control, I think the game already has so much mobility that we should not add more unless it's exceptionally valuable or necessary.

That makes a lot of sense. If the W active is some kind of auto-attack reset or ability empowering effect maybe it could increase his range for that auto-attack. (I'll add this to the list in the main post).

Here are some suggestions on my end:

  • After removing Varus's current innate, make his Q charge speed increase with bonus attack speed. Varus I think is a marksman who should be pushed to go hard on AS and CDR, rather than crit (which is currently mostly the case already), and having him speed up his poke would be a way of making him a little less slow as the game progresses.

That's a very cool idea, I like how it would make his play patterns more fluid! I also think it might be interesting to make it so that he gains attack speed for attacking enemies with blight on them or for proc-ing blight stacks.

  • Have the new W be a simple, fire-and-forget nuke. For example, Varus could target an area, fire an arrow there that would stick to the first enemy hit, and have it explode after a delay. That way, he could always have a way of detonating Blight, and making it AoE could allow it to combo with Hurricane for mass detonations. Giving Varus a whole set of long-ranged actives would solidify his place as a long-ranged marksman.

I see where you are coming from on this one, but I personally prefer an auto-attack reset or a DoT that applies blight, I think it would flow really well to apply the DoT as enemies are disengaging, then land a max range Q to proc the stacks.

  • Change his E a bit: remove the Grievous Wounds, allow Varus to attack anyone on the blighted area regardless of his own distance from them (so he could use this to boost his autoattack range), and have the area only deal damage in the end or upon manual reactivation, kind of like a Gragas Q/Lux E. That way, it would also encourage Varus to fire at enemies from a distance, and the back-loaded damage would allow for better synergy with his innate, as he'd get to apply Blight first, then detonate it when he wants to.

I really like this, having the E create an increased auto-attack range area would be extremely cool! And it's unique too, I don't think there is anything like this in league of legends currently.

Thanks so much for the feedback, I really like your ideas and I'm grateful for your input!

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

IxtaliKing3 votes

Ideas I like:

  • Blight being his innate passive. I think his current passive really lackluster and would probably be a lot more satisfying on another champ, not feeling it on Varus though.

  • W having an active which can be used as an AA reset. When considering what kind of active would suit him I always come back to a range booster with AS steroid. Being as immobile as he is I think he could afford to have a small window of increased range (perhaps 4 or 5 seconds?) Given the feel of his autos I would feel quite satisfying.

Ideas I dislike:

  • Being able to steal movement speed. I'd rather him stay as an immobile champ, I think it's an appropriate weakness profile for him that ought not to be diluted in any way. I prefer to enhance champ's strengths rather than mitigate their weaknesses.

Ideas to contribute:

  • I was thinking that with Blight as an innate it could perhaps have a crit scaling similar to Ashe's. So rather than Varus doing random crits like other ADCs, he'd be doing more consistent on-hit damage instead.

  • Another thing I think could be interesting with Blight as an innate, is making his skills interact with it differently, for example: When Q consumes Blight it becomes an execute with missing HP damage instead of max HP. E could consume Blight with max HP (as it currently does) and R could increase the root duration on the Blight stacked targets.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

This is great feedback! Thanks for contributing :D

{quoted}

Ideas I like:

  • Blight being his innate passive. I think his current passive really lackluster and would probably be a lot more satisfying on another champ, not feeling it on Varus though.

Me too, I think this would be a good change for Varus.

  • W having an active which can be used as an AA reset. When considering what kind of active would suit him I always come back to a range booster with AS steroid. Being as immobile as he is I think he could afford to have a small window of increased range (perhaps 4 or 5 seconds?) Given the feel of his autos I would feel quite satisfying.

I agree, an auto-attack reset would be really cool. The increased range is definitely a possibility, it's fitting given that he seems like he's supposed to be utility / long range. Another user suggested making his E give him increased attack range only against enemies standing in it's AoE, I also think that might be really interesting and/or hold some merit for a change.

Ideas I dislike:

  • Being able to steal movement speed. I'd rather him stay as an immobile champ, I think it's an appropriate weakness profile for him that ought not to be diluted in any way. I prefer to enhance champ's strengths rather than mitigate their weaknesses.

This is consistent with many other people's reactions, it seems that stealing movement speed is a bad idea for Varus as it dilutes and hurts his identity. Thanks for helping identify this!

Ideas to contribute:

  • I was thinking that with Blight as an innate it could perhaps have a crit scaling similar to Ashe's. So rather than Varus doing random crits like other ADCs, he'd be doing more consistent on-hit damage instead.

That's a great idea! I'm completely onboard with it :)

  • Another thing I think could be interesting with Blight as an innate, is making his skills interact with it differently, for example: When Q consumes Blight it becomes an execute with missing HP damage instead of max HP. E could consume Blight with max HP (as it currently does) and R could increase the root duration on the target.

That's an interesting idea too! I don't have any strong feelings for or against, but it seems cool and practical as far as I can tell!

jwebb01132 votes

yes his blight should scale per lvl and be part of his passive

and give him a new W

https://media.giphy.com/media/EfaJs9ebLygOA/giphy.gif

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Thanks!

[slayer-jinx-catface]

Can you think of any additional ideas for his W? I'm trying to think of as many possibilities as I can so that we have the highest chance of hitting on something awesome.

jwebb01131 votes

well considering he already have range, poke and aoe slow on e with healing debuff and cc ult

hmm what about a true sight ability... when he activates it he can see hidden champs like twitch , vayne , rengar, eve etc

since he is slow and immobile dont give him an escape but let him have this unique ability to see invisible targets of course it would need a long cd so it cant be over used... and his damage to a target found by his true sight grants him bonus stacks of blight

HalcyonDweller1 votes

True sight is a great idea! Very interesting, and could definitely work :)

jwebb01131 votes

sent you an add request in client

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I'll accept when I can get to a client. I probably won't be on for a day or two at least though.

Ok sure but why2 votes

I think his on-hit magic damage should stack with each stack of Blight his target has, up to a maximum of 5 stacks (50% AP total). That'd make wizard Varus pretty neat.

I made a whole rework concept about it that I should probably repost, since everyone's talking about it now.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Please do! And link it in a reply to me here so I can come see it :) I'd love to see your ideas regarding it!

Ok sure but why1 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fVio889i-varuss-blight-should-be-more-central-to-his-whole-kit-instead-of-a-small-gimmick-he-forgets

KoKoboto1 votes

That'd be interesting if he casted another thing from his W. It's interesting because weapon in one hand and magicks in the other, at least I find that interesting. I like Kayle and Taric.

W moving to passive is cool but it kinda sucks because AP Varus maxes W early. Unless his new W has an AP ratio for whatever it may be. I think it should focus more on corruption. Also we got the sense that he is a darkin. Darkin's are about constant vamping up, so maybe he should Vamp up more from his W, or be more corruption plague like.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

About to edit it to add a new idea that was brought up in the comments that relates to this.

Long story short W causes a dot to apply to the enemy, that dot applies stacks of blight periodically, and can transfer/spread between enemies that step too close to one another.

Friendly Ram1 votes

I'd love if it was the aa reset that had some bonus to promote the blight stacking. For option 4 if it popped on detonating max stacks that would be epically scary in teamfights. Im against giving varus another slow on top of his other two ccs

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Thanks for your feedback! Come to think of it, additional CC would definitely be crazy to add. I'll leave it up for others to provide feedback on, but I recognize and agree with your points.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Muzét1 votes
  1. Make it an auto-attack reset that empowers the auto-attack.

His next auto-attack inflict Blight stacks (1/2/2/3/3 r 1/1/2/2/3) if blight stacked would overcap detonate current stacks before applying it.

  1. Make it so that it can spread blight to a nearby enemy if the target already has full stacks of blight.

This one is cool too. Something close to Malzahar's E like dealing dmg over time (low base dmg scaling on AP?) to a target and applying stacks every X s. If the target is killed it spread to the next one. And maybe you can gain half your AS bonus (since you put it on detonating Blight) upon attacking an enemy inflicted by this spell.

And if this buff is too strong you could get rid of the blight stacks on R or reduced it (like first target get less stacks whereas other ones get more stacks to reward teamplay for keeping enemies in varus spread ult range.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

That's a very cool idea! I like the idea of it being a Malzahar E... But I'd make one tweak to the spreading effect. I would make it so that instead any enemy that walked into melee range of the target would cause the ability to switch to that enemy. That way enemies have a counterplay to it by taking it from your target as a way of 'saving' them by getting blighted themselves. Good interaction with Varus' Ultimate too, since the W would encourage them to get close and the R would force them to separate.

Or if we wanted it to be more powerful, it could spread without removing it from the original target. That would make a lot of sense thematically.

Muzét1 votes

I wouldn't like the sacrifice. You shouldn't add counterplay everywhere specially those kind that can cause troll or missclick.

The spread could be added if it isn't powerful enough. But I don't want it to be able to get more AS because of some kind of additional interactions with Runaan's.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't like the sacrifice. You shouldn't add counterplay everywhere specially those kind that can cause troll or missclick.

I understand your point, but I am leaving the idea up for people to view and provide their own thoughts on it as well. Perhaps if counterplay is needed enemies could channel to take the Blight DoT from their ally onto themselves.

The spread could be added if it isn't powerful enough. But I don't want it to be able to get more AS because of some kind of additional interactions with Runaan's.

Perhaps, I think that maybe his ultimate should be changed to spread blight in a cooler way. Such as creating an area that applies Blight periodically to enemies, and if they have maximum Blight stacks then it applies the snare on next tick.

GrievousFetus1 votes

I'm not going to do a full rework, that seems a bit extreme.

Here are my ideas I mentioned in another thread.

Blight stacks: blight stacks would be changed from max %hp damage to a small flat amount per stack plus missing %hp damage. The damage of stacks would be decreased, but the maximum amount of stacks would be either increased massively or removed.

Hail of Arrows: Hail of Arrows would remain mostly the same. But now instead of popping blight stacks, hail of arrows' AoE field would deal damage and apply a blight stack every second enemies stand in it.

Piercing Arrow: Here's the big change. Piercing arrow would be the only ability of Varus' that pop blight stacks. But now whenever Q pops blight stacks it carries that damage from the popped stacks with it and applies it to the other enemy champions it hits too. Only a portion of it, increased to all of it if Q kills the previously hit enemies.

So if Varus builds up a ton of stacks on a Frontline tank with lots of health, lowers that tank's health, and then shoots them with piercing arrow, piercing arrow will carry that MASSIVE %missing HP damage done to a high health target close to death, and then nuke the low max HP carry in the back as well if it connects.

My idea was that Varus is thematically about debilitation and corruption, so I tried to revamp his gameplay to be about slowly destroying the enemy's front line, and then spread that destruction to the enemy back line and turn their diseased front line against them, like a contagion.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

These are some great ideas :D Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

The concept of Piercing Arrow carrying damage through to a second target is cool and I like that part of it, but I don't like having only one way to proc blight. So I have to disagree with having piercing arrow be the only ability that pop's blight.

I still respect your ideas though, they're well thought out and would probably work great for Varus.

GrievousFetus1 votes

Maybe his ult could be changed to pop blight stacks before applying three of it's own. This way there's a trade off. Landing multi-snares with ult ensures a Q that will hit multiple people, but pops their stacks so you get less transferred damage. This means you are immensely rewarded for hitting Qs on non-CC'd targets which is highly skillful.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

True that, it would definitely be more skillful.

How would you feel about it if blight were moved to his passive and Varus got a new W? For example, Teridax68 proposed a really cool ability:

{quoted}

Have the new W be a simple, fire-and-forget nuke. For example, Varus could target an area, fire an arrow there that would stick to the first enemy hit, and have it explode after a delay. That way, he could always have a way of detonating Blight, and making it AoE could allow it to combo with Hurricane for mass detonations. Giving Varus a whole set of long-ranged actives would solidify his place as a long-ranged marksman.

And lastly, if you could give Varus a new W, what would you use?

GrievousFetus1 votes

i think it makes sense for Varus to have his blight moved to his passive. His actual passive is an afterthought, and moving his blight to his passive means you don't need to warp his power curve because you won't have to put ranks into his blight.

W would be some sort of single target poke. its primary purpose solely being popping blight stacks (and in this case his ult wouldn't). A reliable option for popping his blight versus single targets, while Q is an ureliable option for popping blight and potentially decimating additional enemies.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Cool! Would Piercing Arrow's damage profile change at all since it will be able to strike enemies through targets? Like should it deal less damage unless it is transferring blight?

GrievousFetus1 votes

I've always hated the idea that pass through skill shots decrease in damage as they pass through champions. Hitting multiple champions with a single attack, especially a relatively slow moving one like Varus' Q, is difficult and should be rewarded, not penalized. I also don't think that the arrow needs any sort of special incentive to be used on blighted targets. Right now Q gets a partial CD refund when used on a blighted target because Riot wants to incentivize using it on blighted targets, but just do that by making blight stacks worthwhile enough in their own right. Varus shouldn't need special bonuses to make it worthwhile to save Q for blighted targets, blight should be strong enough in and of itself that players save Q for blighted targets.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Those are fair assessments. I can agree with most of what you've said.

I'm still concerned about punishing enemies who try to body block for their teammates, like I think that Varus should be rewarded for striking a second target only if he has blight stacks to spread, otherwise the damage should still be lower to better reward enemies for body blocking for one another and to encourage Varus to make use of the stronger blight stacks.

tldr; IMO it comes down to risk / reward. Varus should suffer for not applying blight before using Q, and on the other hand he should be better rewarded when he does apply blight first.

GrievousFetus1 votes

tldr; IMO it comes down to risk / reward. Varus should suffer for not applying blight before using Q, and on the other hand he should be better rewarded when he does apply blight first.

I agree, but I don't agree that should be done by some sort of additional or external feature like a CD refund or anything of the sort. The reward for applying blight before Q should be blight's damage, and the penalty for not applying blight before using Q should be not applying blight's damage. I don't think the punishment/reward should be dealt with an additional feature. Simply make blight strong enough and Q without blight weak enough that the opportunity cost of not popping blight is punishment in and of itself.

As for arrow pass through damage reduction, I'm dubious of "body blocking" as counter play. Hitting an enemy with a skill shot is already difficult, hitting multiple enemies with skillshots is especially difficult. I don't think it should be punished or that there should be a mechanic in place that incentivizes a front liner to willingly get hit with a skillshot to soften it for the back line, doubly so since the back line should be attempting to dodge the skill shot anyway. Much of the impetus for creating this blight transfer idea on Q was that Varus could, with enough commitment and time, debilitate the front line to the point their presence could become a concern for their own backline and compromise the carries' positioning relative to the front line. Arrow drop off damage for hitting multiple targets penalizes that.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

I agree, but I don't agree that should be done by some sort of additional or external feature like a CD refund or anything of the sort. The reward for applying blight before Q should be blight's damage, and the penalty for not applying blight before using Q should be not applying blight's damage. I don't think the punishment/reward should be dealt with an additional feature. Simply make blight strong enough and Q without blight weak enough that the opportunity cost of not popping blight is punishment in and of itself.

Oh I agree completely! This is what I was trying to argue for all along, I guess I didn't explain myself very well.

As for arrow pass through damage reduction, I'm dubious of "body blocking" as counter play. Hitting an enemy with a skill shot is already difficult, hitting multiple enemies with skillshots is especially difficult. I don't think it should be punished or that there should be a mechanic in place that incentivizes a front liner to willingly get hit with a skillshot to soften it for the back line, doubly so since the back line should be attempting to dodge the skill shot anyway. Much of the impetus for creating this blight transfer idea on Q was that Varus could, with enough commitment and time, debilitate the front line to the point their presence could become a concern for their own backline and compromise the carries' positioning relative to the front line. Arrow drop off damage for hitting multiple targets penalizes that.

I'm only arguing for a lower base damage on Q but have it deal lots more damage when striking or spreading blighted targets. Like what you suggested in the first paragraph. I didn't make that very clear in my comments, and for that I am sorry.

iLBGAMing1 votes

As a Varus main looking some of the ideas in both this post and the comments section I disagree with a couple things..

One of them is having an ability that empowers Varus's next auto attack (this ability would turn Varus in a assassin of some sort, suggesting one shot builds).

Second having blight stacks deal less damage but able to stack more blight stacks (suggesting that he should be an attack speed on-hit champion something I don't want to see in Varus we already have Kog'Maw).

My idea is to focus more on keeping him this high range caster, and as for the blight I still need to think about it myself. I might even make a post about it sharing my ideas later.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I see, well perhaps you will like Teridax68's suggestions farther down this thread:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/L75woVuR-i-wish-varus-was-more-complex-interesting-to-play-here-are-a-variety-of-ideas-to-accomplish-that?comment=0005

iLBGAMing1 votes

I didn't mean that I disagree with all your ideas, I like most of them sorry if I seemed rude <3

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Oh not at all :) I wasn't offended, it just seemed to me you might like Teridax68's ideas best. The link is a 'permalink' that will take you straight to Teridax68's comment here in this thread.

Thanks for clarifying though! I do appreciate the confirmation that you weren't just pooh-pooing all my ideas :)

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