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Better "bugfix" Yorick, am I right?

Moody P··87 votes·17,185 views

Mistwalkers and The Maiden now draw minion and turret aggro onto Yorick if they damage an enemy champion

Why are you shitting on Yorick so hard? Minions will now do more damage in an early trade to you than ghouls will do to the opponent; add to that, the opponent can kill 3, leave a ghoul alive, and then continue to face tank that ghoul to draw aggro on you, only raising the discrepancy between your trading power vs their minion wave - and thus denying you the ability to NOT draw aggro until the ghoul dies. You just put so much of Yorick's agency in the opponent being absolutely retarded - AGAIN, neutering the champion in higher elo play while this will guaranteed not do shit against his "overbearing" status in bronze.

In addition to that, because of how Maiden and Ghouls are coded, your ability to tower push gets hurt too. Because they aggro onto whoever's hitting Yorick, you can no longer make a push by ignoring the enemy laner and prioritizing tower because they'll aggro the champion if they attack you - and then the tower (and all of their minions) aggro YOU.

There's no way this is a bug fix if it's been there since his release. You wanted to nerf Yorick without drawing heat.

btw NONE OF THE OTHER PET SUMMONER CHAMPIONS WORK LIKE THIS. Not Malzahar, not Zyra, not Annie. Just Yorick.

81 Comments

feintfiend32 votes

The ghoul nerfs should be reverted If you played it right you could beat Fiora Riven Garen but now these champs and many more automatically shit on your in lane and some even outscale you. I think riot dislikes alternative playstyles and wants every game to be teams ARAMing mid at 20 minutes waitng to see who fucks up first.

GayFluffyUnicorn9 votes

Well isn't the direction obvious? Riot has done nothing but enforcing the 5v5 deathball meta.

Noraver22 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L4e2mKjV,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-11-20T17:21:20.488+0000)

btw NONE OF THE OTHER PET SUMMONER CHAMPIONS WORK LIKE THIS. Not Malzahar, not Zyra, not Annie. Just Yorick.

Actually, they do. Plant attacks will aggro the turret onto Zyra, and Tibbers hitting the enemy will aggro the turret onto Annie. Haven't played Malz in a year but I'm pretty sure he also gets aggro.

Barcid14 votes

They don't draw minion aggro, and I think the implication is that minion aggro will be drawn quickly as opposed to after Yorick "engages" the enemy (IE, he actually goes to melee attack them).

I will say definitively that the Maiden and Ghouls drew turret aggro onto Yorick regardless beforehand, but would sometimes bug out assumedly if Yorick entered the turret's range between maiden damage ticks, giving him an extra moment or two free of turret shots. Otherwise, functioned the same.

CleverCactus3 votes

Malzahar voidlings do not draw minion aggro onto him.

SweedishGunner1 votes

They don't attack a specific target unless they're affected by Malefic Visions, which would draw tower aggro, so the point is moot.

Ez dePaz2 votes

Only if Malz puts Malefic Visions on them directly, if it jumps to them the minions won't freak out.

MaxDarkwill19 votes

its really a stupid excuse of a bugfix. Can't win lane or even put a lil pressure without getting gutted.

LTK KoRo3 votes

Just a disclaimer, if we count Shaco clone as a pet, he does give Shaco the turret aggro.

Alzon5 votes

Mordekaiser ghosts also draw aggro to him. The dragon draws aggro for just existing under turret with nearby enemies.

Moody P6 votes

I don't think clones count as pets. Does it draw minion aggro onto the real Shaco, or the clone?

My understanding is that all damage from any champion should draw tower aggro; it's just the specific Yorick interaction (get hit ->ghouls/Maiden aggro them -> tower aggros you) that fucks him so hard.

LTK KoRo3 votes

If both Shaco and his clone are in turret range, and only clone is attacking someone then aggro goes to real Shaco If only Cloned Shaco is in turret range and he attacks someone, turret "ignores" him, or at least doesn't change focus from original target.

Unsure about how it works with minion aggro tbh, would need to test.

But this interaction shouldn't be taken as something good, Shaco is a mess when it comes to interactions with his boxes/clone

Z3Sleeper3 votes

I'm becoming less and less of a Yorick main each day.

Minions are literally stronger than ghouls early game. Might as well slit our wrists if we wanna toss em out.

Ghouls at level 3: 219 HP, 24 AD and 0.58 AS Melee Minion at level 3: 491 HP, 12 AD and 1.25 AS Ranged Minion at level 3: 302 HP, 24 AD and 0.667 AS Siege Minion at level 3: 950 HP, 41 AD and 1.0 AS

Not to mention they're outnumbered 6/7:4.

SwiftKitten883 votes

its almost as if u dive someone under tower the tower should be attacking you

WHAT A FREAKING CONCEPT.

and honestly... its Yorick ,, he doesn't care about a "few tower shots" until about the 10th one starts hitting him

Moody P11 votes

interesting that you gloss over the minion aggro and the reason why the tower change hurts him

bet you'll ignore his massively tanked win rate in higher elo too

Pika Fox3 votes

? Annie works like this. If tibbers hits someone and youre in tower range, it agros you.

goodiesohhi2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L4e2mKjV,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-11-20T22:33:10.544+0000)

? Annie works like this. If tibbers hits someone and youre in tower range, it agros you.

Don't forget Tibbers has an aura that counts as Annie's spell damage.

y0r1ck1 votes

The difference is annie is still a champion without her ultimate, it's just some burst damage or aoe stun. Yorick is 100% useless without his ghouls or ultimate. He's not going to get anything done without them. And punishing him so hard for summoning such an integral part of his kit (that's been literally cut in half most of the early game) seems unfair.

Pika Fox2 votes

Not the point, the point is the claim of "other champions dont work like this" when they do.

y0r1ck1 votes

I know what your point was. I'm just saying it doesn't matter that annie works like this because annie doesn't need her ult to push a lane like yorick needs his ghouls to push a lane or tower.

You're right, but it doesn't really matter that you're right in the grand scheme of things because this interaction hurts yorick more than other summoner champs.

SanKakU2 votes

Do ghouls not survive longer with this change?

Iota Theta3 votes

{quoted}

Do ghouls not survive longer with this change?

Kind of. They still die as fast as normal. When it comes to turrets the minions might outspeed them, giving them more time, but if they aggro on a champ and turret and minions target you, you have to back off out of range, and too far out will make the ghouls weaker.

DrCyanide2 votes

It's been a while since I played Yorick, but I thought that the Mistwalkers and Maiden did draw agro before. Is this bug fix just a consistency pass (some odd way to ignore that agro), or did that get changed, or am I misremembering?

Somber Rites2 votes

I'm getting tired of this.

It feels like Riot WANTS me to stop playing altogether. One more unnecessary gutting, and I'm going back to ffxiv.

At least they didn't buff his counters (that just so happen to also smash low elo people into the ground even more than Yorick does) in the same patch again. (But if it happens next patch, there will be unkind words spewed form my face.)

Ratpie2 votes

At this point is almost to your detriment to pull out your minions in lane. They die fast and they pull minion aggro on you. Any trade results in a loss for yorick almost every time. They are really Yorick's only way of dealing with ranged champs in top, but now they just get your own but kicked. He didn't even have that high win rate in the first place. Late game he is still insane, and past 40 mins has the highest win rates in teh game. Maybe more address his late game and stop jacking him over early. His pre 40 min game win rates are atrocious. Unfortunately the average game is like 25-30 mins. RIP Yorick......With these changes, the only thing he is burying, is himself.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Well the thing is this is a bug-fix not a nerf. They did draw aggro to him, it just wasn't 100% of the time. I know for a fact that Yorick would gain aggro is Maiden hit an enemy champion under turret, and I am like 90% sure his Ghouls did too (its hard to tell I generally don't dive people).

However those nerfs were unjustified and need to be removed. First off, it was admitted it had nothing to do with his power levels and everything to do with lower elo people not understanding how his kit works. Second his "dominance" was mostly due to Meta-shifts that left his hard counters in a really bad spot without touching him. Now that those champions are back to being viable, there is never a reason to pick him. He is back to being unseen, which I suppose is part of their goal they said they didn't want him being meta. But it leaves his mains in a shitty position because we love playing Yorick and its like we are being punished for people not understanding how he works and Riot not wanting him to be an actual champion.

Mael Jade1 votes

{quoted}

Well the thing is this is a bug-fix not a nerf.

Good one. Ever wondered why Warwick dropped out of favor from being the best jungler for lower elo to mediocre? They bug-fixed his Q and passive damage. Bugfixes like this can and will have a large impact if they occurred often or had a large impact. Also, from my memory his ghouls did not draw aggro on you under turret if the enemy was their next target because you cant control them

Stephenizgod1 votes

Its a bug though and relying on a bug to win means there is something wrong with the champion. So regardless of whether it makes the champion strong or not, it needs to be fixed.

Yorick's Ghouls and Turret Aggro were weird. Its been a while since I played him but I remember a bit, because I stopped trying to tower dive due to the inconsistencies. If they hit the enemy on their own, they generally did not draw Turret aggro to Yorick if he was out of range but then walked in range. If both were in range, it did sometimes. Maiden pretty much always drew aggro to Yorick. If they were marked with his E out of Turret Range then Yorick walked into Turret range, he would gain Turret aggro from his Ghouls.

Raven is Alice1 votes

{quoted}

Its a bug though and relying on a bug to win means there is something wrong with the champion. So regardless of whether it makes the champion strong or not, it needs to be fixed.

Yorick's Ghouls and Turret Aggro were weird. Its been a while since I played him but I remember a bit, because I stopped trying to tower dive due to the inconsistencies. If they hit the enemy on their own, they generally did not draw Turret aggro to Yorick if he was out of range but then walked in range. If both were in range, it did sometimes. Maiden pretty much always drew aggro to Yorick. If they were marked with his E out of Turret Range then Yorick walked into Turret range, he would gain Turret aggro from his Ghouls.

It's not a bug, they're just calling it a bug. Turret aggro sure that might be a bug. Yorick getting aggro from his ghouls hitting an enemy champion is not a bug. No other champion with pets or minions has that interaction. Voidlings are the closest thing to Yorick's ghouls and those don't pull minion aggro to Malz when they hit a champion.

Everyone defending the bugfix focuses on the tower aggro part. That part sucks for Yorick but Yorick players main concern is the minion aggro "bugfix" that causes him to auto-lose every trade because lane minions do more damage than his ghouls.

This has been part of Yorick since release of his rework. That's a long time for a bug to go unnoticed, especially considering they were doing passes of Yorick in like the 3 previous patches as well so it's not like it was just because he was flying under the radar. they were paying a lot of attention to him. At that point it just becomes part of the champion. It would be like someone next patch removing ward hopping from Jax and Lee and calling it a bugfix because it was originally a bug that they left as an intended interaction.

Stephenizgod1 votes

It is a bug, every other minion draws aggro to the caster. The main point of this bug is its inconsistency, it did sometimes and didn't other times.

Just because they are fixing it now doesn't mean it went unnoticed, it could mean they had no idea what was causing it or how to fix it without screwing up other parts of their kit. There is a reason certain champion bugs exist for long times and it doesn't mean they don't see it or don't care.

Ward hopping follows the rules implemented in the game, its a bug that it could happen, but not a bug in how it happens. It treats wards like allies, they left it in because it was a unique interaction and offered some cool mechanics. Yorick's Ghouls sometimes drawing aggro in certain situations and not drawing aggro in others is not how they are suppose to work, it also doesn't offer any cool mechanics. Its a bug.

Raven is Alice1 votes

{quoted}

It is a bug, every other minion draws aggro to the caster. The main point of this bug is its inconsistency, it did sometimes and didn't other times.

No, they don't. Other minions draw tower aggro yes, but not minion aggro. That's the main issue your minions hitting enemy champions now cause the entire enemy minion wave to attack Yorick. The "sometimes" is with tower aggro and the "sometimes" was when damage was caused from corrupting potion not from ghouls.

When you couple this with the fact that Yorick's ghouls are weaker than lane minions it means that if you use your ghouls for harass, like he's supposed to be able to, you draw the entire wave. And if you're trying to all in then you draw the minion aggro sooner than you should.

My solution would be to keep it so that minions attacking champions will pull turret aggro, remove them from pulling minion aggro. From there make it so Yorick's E can either be used on towers to keep minions focused on a turret if damage in the turret is the goal so that way an enemy can't bob you once make minions hit them and then cause tower to shoot Yorick OR make it so when Yorick is hitting tower they prioritize tower over enemy champions unless Yorick marks them.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Oh man... i feel so dumb. Im sorry, I honestly didn't see the minion part. You are right, my bad forget everything i said.

y0r1ck1 votes

A bugfix can be a nerf.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Yea and it also can be a buff. The thing is id rather they bug fix him and it turns out its a nerf, because then if he is too weak they can buff him later. If its a bugfix that turns into a buff, he most likely would receive a completely unrelated unnecessary nerf.

y0r1ck1 votes

Yeah you're right. I thought that you meant this bugfix isn't a nerf. Confusing wording.

SwiftKitten881 votes

... https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/all/by-winrate

globaly.. across all elos... yorik is the highest winrate champion in the game

now I GET that "winrate doesn't mean everything"

but to "wonder why he is getting nerfs".. is stupid...

stop looking at only the top 1% of people actually look at the game.

i mean would i have RATHER then nerf Irelia Akali Pyke Leblanc Kaisa

yeah i would.. but thats personal perference.. your pretending that yorik "isn't an issue" and yeah he ISN'T and issue in higher elos..

but thats not why he is getting nerfed.

zoom out and look at the whole picture.

i dont agree with riot on well over half they balance changes they make, but this one WAS needed.

5050BS2 votes

His win rate is not his damage. Its that he can push and take turrets fast.

When I play him in some games its like Im playing Int Yorick and can be 2/8 but Im at the Inhib Turret and my turret is still standing.

Bârd4 votes

"Zoom out and look at the whole picture" indeed.

Using "All Elos" win rate is incredibly misleading because a massive chunk of that swayed by Bronze/Silver stats.

Bronze+ ("All Elos"): 53% win rate, 2% pick rate Silver+: 52.9% win rate, 1.9% pick rate Gold+: 51.7% win rate, 0.8% pick rate Plat+: 50.1% win rate, 0.5% pick rate Diamond+: 48.7% win rate, 0.8% pick rate

See those low pick rates? That means he's only being picked by mains and this is the best they can do.

50% win rate in plat? 48.7% in diamond? On a relatively simple champion? That means that, even when he is played to his skill cap, he's a bad champion.

The only ELO's that struggle against Yorick are Bronze and Silver. The moment he's used in games with even kinda good players (even as relatively low as gold), his win rate tanks.

y0r1ck1 votes

Well the same way he's using all elos in a misleading way, you're using "x elo +" winrates in a misleading way. His gold elo winrate is higher than what you've listed since higher elos will bring that average down. Same with the rest of your stats. Agreed he gets worse as elo gets higher, but his low elo winrates are higher than what you've listed.

Bârd1 votes

True, but that would be a relatively minor effect.

There are just so few Yorick games in high elo (both due to lower player count and lower pick rate) that it couldn't throw off his low elo stats at that much.

y0r1ck1 votes

Though perhaps it would since yorick's higher elo winrate is much lower than his low elo winrate. As we know averages don't deal with outliers well, so there is a possibility that the higher elo winrate visibly affects the low elo+ winrates. I still think ur right, I'm just not sure.

ValiantKiller1 votes

I did try him today and god it feel aweful to play him, like one mistake under tower and you take fulll damage = death cause minion attacked the champion who attack you over tower.

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

I did try him today and god it feel aweful to play him, like one mistake under tower and you take fulll damage = death cause minion attacked the champion who attack you over tower.

dont tower dive? like seroiusly towers are SUPPOSED to protect the player early on , just because _lately _they haven't been very good at doing that, donest mean that isn't their role

and no i dont think its "ok" that Irelia, Akali Leblanc can tower dive with complete impunity. but all of those champs are also currently major issues in the game right now.

and u say "yuou make a mistake under tower.. no u MADE A MISTAKE WHILE TOWER DIVING THE ENEMY

THAT MEANS YOUR SUPPOSED TO DIE

just like 135+ other champions are SUPPOSED to die when they "fuck up" when tower diving the enemy

thats the "risk" of tower diving.. and i do amit that the past few seaosn that "risk" has really not been there much, but that wasd also one of the biggest issues in league... "towers being too weak" and "not protective you from dives NOW they supposedly do unless your one of riots "precious new rework babies".

and thats not a BAD thing.. thats a GOOD thing

ValiantKiller1 votes

{quoted}

dont tower dive? like seroiusly towers are SUPPOSED to protect the player early on , just because _lately _they haven't been very good at doing that, donest mean that isn't their role

and no i dont think its "ok" that Irelia, Akali Leblanc can tower dive with complete impunity. but all of those champs are also currently major issues in the game right now.

and u say "yuou make a mistake under tower.. no u MADE A MISTAKE WHILE TOWER DIVING THE ENEMY

THAT MEANS YOUR SUPPOSED TO DIE

just like 135+ other champions are SUPPOSED to die when they "fuck up" when tower diving the enemy

thats the "risk" of tower diving.. and i do amit that the past few seaosn that "risk" has really not been there much, but that wasd also one of the biggest issues in league... "towers being too weak" and "not protective you from dives NOW they supposedly do unless your one of riots "precious new rework babies".

and thats not a BAD thing.. thats a GOOD thing

I didn't tower dive, i didn;t touch the champion i legit focus my damage on tower but since ghouls auto attack whatever attack you so they respond to garen attacking me and ofcourse tower switch aggro to me. Tthat not tower dive, that focusing tower but right you another personthat want to defend that way that riot dealing with balance.

y0r1ck3 votes

Does any other splitpusher have this problem where focusing the tower if an enemy is under it will cause the splitpusher to take turret aggro? I guess nasus does if he uses ultimate and the enemy is melee. Seems like an unnecessary restriction on yorick. But that's not even the worst part about this bug fix. It's more about interactions in lane.

ValiantKiller3 votes

{quoted}

Does any other splitpusher have this problem where focusing the tower if an enemy is under it will cause the splitpusher to take turret aggro? I guess nasus does if he uses ultimate and the enemy is melee. Seems like an unnecessary restriction on yorick. But that's not even the worst part about this bug fix. It's more about interactions in lane.

That is my point, legit no one from splitpusher got this problem and it get worst when you try to farm peacefully with your ghouls then enemy attack you and ghouls defend you forcing minions to focus you and make tons of damage to you in lane.

ZaneShadow1 votes

He consistently sits near a 52% winrate at ALL elo. Yorick is my 3rd most played champion, trust me, I love the champ. But he is not weak. I’ve run jnto posts like this before and checked op.gg, Champion.gg, Lolalytics, and a few more google found for me. The lowest was a 51.3% winrate near the end of the patch, and that was only in bronze. All other Elos were higher.

I hate hearing Yorick is getting nerfed. But to say he is weak or can’t take some down tunning is a bit much. I think that the argument that he has a high % of mains that jack up the winrate is valid, meaning more skill is making him stronger over the champions baselines, but the tower plating is just one massive buff to him, since as a solo champ he still might melt the tower around the 13 minute mark if left alone, getting a ton of extra gold for it.

y0r1ck1 votes

Hey man. No offense but you're playing in a lower elo, where opponents don't know how to play against yorick. Even im not playing in an elo where most people know what to do against yorick. But me? I know what to do against yorick. I'll dumpster a yorick at my elo. I'll pick renekton, take pta and ignite. I'll build black cleaver and botrk. Yorick won't touch a minion after level 3.

That's the problem. Once you know what to do against yorick, it's too easy to counter him. To the point where it'll become useless to pick him against players who know what they're doing. At this rate it'll take something like yi+taric to make him useful, and I don't want that. I just want to feel like I'm not trolling when I blind pick yorick.

EDIT: And as for 52% across all elos, yes that is true. It is that high because the majority of the player base is low elo and yorick is disproportionately good in that range. Look at stats for just the higher elos to see what happens when playing against players who know how to counter a yorick.

ZaneShadow1 votes

{quoted}

Hey man. No offense but you're playing in a lower elo, where opponents don't know how to play against yorick. Even im not playing in an elo where most people know what to do against yorick. But me? I know what to do against yorick. I'll dumpster a yorick at my elo. I'll pick renekton, take pta and ignite. I'll build black cleaver and botrk. Yorick won't touch a minion after level 3.

That's the problem. Once you know what to do against yorick, it's too easy to counter him. To the point where it'll become useless to pick him against players who know what they're doing. At this rate it'll take something like yi+taric to make him useful, and I don't want that. I just want to feel like I'm not trolling when I blind pick yorick.

EDIT: And as for 52% across all elos, yes that is true. It is that high because the majority of the player base is low elo and yorick is disproportionately good in that range. Look at stats for just the higher elos to see what happens when playing against players who know how to counter a yorick.

When I said all elos, i didn’t mean the sum total average. I meant Only Gold: 52%. Only Diamond52%. Only Plat ~52%.

I’m a bit of a stat junky, but yes I’m low elo. But my comment was made after studying Yoricks patterns across all elo, 1 elo bracket at a time. In the higher elos, plat+ his win rate fluctuates +/- 4% between any given week. His play rate is lower that high up, which acounts for this.

My understanding of percentages and far exceeds my ability to perform them.

y0r1ck1 votes

Hmm show me these stats. I can't find them and everyone else seems to be using different stats also.

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