Exhaust.
yes this confirms that counter playing and abusing weaknesses is how you win.
Also I think this confirms that you shouldn't go full AP/damage and no zhonyas/exhaust and then complain about a champion that abuses your stupidity.
OJ19126 votesExhaust.
yes this confirms that counter playing and abusing weaknesses is how you win.
Also I think this confirms that you shouldn't go full AP/damage and no zhonyas/exhaust and then complain about a champion that abuses your stupidity.
correction, exhaust + dps + global ult to prevent his inevitable escape.
many mages can't kill zed without ignite, exhaust just allows them to survive (oops exhaust has a longer cooldown)
zhonyas rush is an option, but then you just go oom trying to poke him to a killable level while he sustain off the minions... because rushing pure damage and sustain should totally be a thing when your opponents HAVE to rush a counter item or feed (or afk in fountain is an option too I guess..)
You can easily exhaust her after she tries to W combo you
once she is exhausted you can catch up to her even if she W's back and kill her.
Unless you have something like 100ms or less reaction time (including ping), you're not going to be exhausting leblanc before her abilities land without casting it the INSTANT she goes in. All she has to do is press W and wait half a second for you to blow exhaust, then W2 and leave. R away if she has to, it'll be back 30 seconds later anyway.
That's not even taking into account the range, if she does a WQRE combo at max range it is out of exhaust range.
I remember back when everyone ran Exhaust and Assassins couldn't do crap.
Now nobody remembers how much Exhaust gimps Assassins, and all they do is QQ whenever an Assassin nukes the squishiest member of the team.
Everyone I know always knew exhaust gimps assassins in teamfights? Thing is for lane phase, if you can't kill that assassin while having exhaust, all you did we force them off you - except exhaust has a longer cooldown than their ultimates sooo.
SpecterVonBaren5 votescorrection, exhaust + dps + global ult to prevent his inevitable escape.
many mages can't kill zed without ignite, exhaust just allows them to survive (oops exhaust has a longer cooldown)
zhonyas rush is an option, but then you just go oom trying to poke him to a killable level while he sustain off the minions... because rushing pure damage and sustain should totally be a thing when your opponents HAVE to rush a counter item or feed (or afk in fountain is an option too I guess..)
With Karthus, afking in the fountain is the best option.
Baron of Bread1 votesPretty good points there, but you forgot the inherit mana sustain that Karthus brings with Defile. No mana-less pushing is going to get Karthus to run out of mana.
OJ1912 votes[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L21LFsle,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2015-03-09T06:20:07.241+0000)
Pretty good points there, but you forgot the inherit mana sustain that Karthus brings with Defile. No mana-less pushing is going to get Karthus to run out of mana.
Well yeah there's that, but you gotta admit he's also one of the few who can actually get kills with exhaust without enemies being bads.
Oh noes I got exhausted as Zed, too bad I wasn't within burstable range so I just ran off, and now my ult is back before your exhaust
whereas with karthus it's more like "lol get rekt zed I don't have to worry about cooldowns and even if you get away I can just press R"
For example Brand, I love taking vs zed, but if I don't take ignite it's almost impossible to actually get a kill on him - and don't try to say he needs W to engage on you whoever that was, you have to go into autoattack range some time or you will lose many many minions.
Baron of Bread1 votesI am not experienced with Karthus so I will certainly believe you in this case since you seem knowledgeable. I just felt that adding the part about mana sustain was important since Zed being able to force people to mana starvation is a common point brought up on the forums.
Celeste Benal1 votesYeah, Karthus doesn't generally suffer from mana issues, especially once he buys tear.
SleepyLionCub12 votesDid you just say that people who lose to zed are stupid?
Honey, you got a storm comin
SwapShadows7 votesHe has one of the most counters in this game.
EDIT: Just incase you don't know what this means, im basically saying that a champion like Zed that gets countered by multiple items/summoners is a champion that you can easily beat if you use his counters against him, even if he gets really ahead. This is the reason why Riot agrees to him being a healthy assassin.
B1naryB0t3 votesHere's what I wanna know though. With him being so easy to counter, why is it midlaners like Hai from C9 say "The only safe blind pick mid is zed"?
Llanite3 votesBecause 'easy' and 'many' are subjective. 10 is many, 20 is many, 30 is many, and yet still less than 25% of the roster of 134.
If he is countered by 30 champs, that would mean he does fine/ counters the other 104, hence, a safe pick against an unknown.
Now if you play a Liss/Teemo who counters melee champs, but terribly against almost everyone else, now it's a risky pick.
B1naryB0t1 votesBut then you get back to the problem of "Why do I have to play X to beat Y?" Counters are perfectly healthy, but when a champion is able to destroy you by being able to itemize more effectively than you, farm better than you, roam better than you, burst better than you simply because they had a better champ select, that's a problem.
Llanite1 votesI don't see what's wrong? If you can just pick anybody and still beat the guy with ease, he's probably too weak to begin with.
'Balance' is someone who beats certain people, and get beaten by another group of people, 50/50 against the rest.
B1naryB0t1 votesYou should be able to have a chance to win without having to win in the champ select screen. Some champs should have advantages over others, but there should be no hard counters. The problem that comes out though is some champions, like Zed, are good at EVERYTHING and there's no one who excels in their area noticeably more than him.
Waveclear? Easy, his abilities set up a reliable wave cleared and come off CD roughly in the time frame the next wave comes strolling along. Waveclear of a mage.
Resources? Ever heard of the wonderful thing called energy? The thing that the mana nerfs didn't touch? If played correctly, he will never run out of energy.
Poke? Q and E my friend, not just good for farming.
Last hitting? Passive makes for the best last-hitter in the game.
Ranged threat? Well just dodge skill shots and poke with your endless Q's.
All-in? Safest all-in of many assassins, being able to secure a kill and teleport back to his starting position almost instantly. Literally the only other champ to do this is LeBlanc, who is annoying in her own respect.
Diving? See last point, but even more obnoxious when you're hugging tower and he's unscathed.
Itemization? Don't worry! AD items are more favorable than AP items in this game, especially since you don't have to worry about mana like those mages do for your wave clear and can focus on damage, damage, damage.
Honestly, I dread laning against Zed as anyone with the current state of things.
Llanite1 votesNot as easy as people make him out to be. I'll address a few points:
Sure, he has unlimited ammunition, doesn't make him a better shooter. Q is still dodge-able, Kat/Akali/Karthus/Cass/Oriana has the same low-cost poke, with better accuracy.
His Q has good range, but still not be able to one shot ranged minions, i.e. he still has to AA. Alternatively he can also W-E to finish the wave, but then would have no escape for the next 20s, the lane would also be pushed which leaves him vulnerable to gank.
If he W-E to poke, which can only happen every 20s, he would have no wave clear or escape.
Diving "unscathed" is definitely an overstatement, R lets him lose aggro, but as soon as he hits you with whatever (Q/E/Ignite/AA) tower switches right back. The word you're looking for is "poke under tower", not "dive". And there are people who are better than him in this respect (Annie/Xerath/Cass/Karthus/Brand)
AD itemize is better, yes, but that'd be true for every AD mid (Riven/pant/Yas).
TLDR: Zed knows his trade, but not better than other champs in their respected roles, there are people with better poke, people with better burst, people with better aoe, with CC, or with tankiness. He just happens to be a stat ball, so are Irelia, Fiora or Yi.
Nucleophilic atk7 votesWhen champs like 
or 
require you to rush/build a certain thing, they are hit hard with da nerf bat. When Zed forces you to build something, it is counterplay.
If you want to make you argument hold some weight, at least be accurate with your claims. The reason karthus was able to beat Zed is because karthus doesn't have major mana issues. Zed wasn't even that strong before the nerf to every single mana champ. When you nerf everyone around, you make the one thing you didn't nerf stronger.
Matezoide6 votesNo, Karthus won because Zed was ganked by Leona + Lee and picked another kill with his global ult soon after. Then despite losing lane, Zed split push like mad and teared several turrets + inib apart.
Exhaust helps you survive, but it doesnt help you kill him because "lol mobility", he will just out-farm you, gank bot or kill you when Exhaust is down.
Narasimha1 votesThen despite losing lane, Zed split push like mad and teared several turrets + inib apart.
For the record, that kind of backfired and cost them the game. Zed and Lulu couldn't contest the second Baron, and with TIP already in the lead, they couldn't stop the push.
Matezoide1 votesVery true. However, that wasnt because Zed is a bad pusher or anything. It was because Karthus' team was hilariously ahead and Karth happens to be an amazing team fighter, while being part of a smart team that knew how to engage.
What i am trying to say is, Zed still managed to be extremely useful to his team because of his incredible split pushing, despite the fact he lost lane. If his team wasnt so far behind, and could actually hold out the 4v5, they could have won. Replace Zed with, say, LeBlanc or Ahri, and they would be far less useful than Zed overral.
Narasimha2 votesEh, I wouldn't say that's something specific to Zed. A lot of champions could do the exact same thing. Fiora, Tryndamere, Jax, Udyr, etc. He just tends to fall back on split pushing more because if he's behind, he's pretty much useless in teamfights.
TehNACHO5 votesI remember back when everyone ran Exhaust and Assassins couldn't do crap.
Now nobody remembers how much Exhaust gimps Assassins, and all they do is QQ whenever an Assassin nukes the squishiest member of the team.
SwapShadows3 votesThis is so true, people blindly pick ignite and complain.
IcyPepper1 votesSeriously, so tired of it.
People run certain spells or play a certain meta without understanding the reason why.
disregardable10 votesHow do you exhaust LeBlanc?
Only Play Darius4 votesWho needs exhaust when you have wither?
LordDarkshayde4 votesIf I get mid lane and I see a Zed I actually use Shen to counter pick him. Never lost to a Zed as Shen and don't think I ever will.
Only Play Darius2 votesZed does fine against tanks....
LordDarkshayde4 votesYou don't seem to realize just how powerful Shen is against Zed then. Not only does Shen get tanky, but he can immediately taunt Zed after he ults and mitigate alot of Zeds bonus damage because while taunted he takes reduced damage from Zed. Add that in to the fact that he has a shield to mitigate yet more damage from Zed and his Q let's him sustain at the same time and tell me again Zed will do fine against a Shen.
PerishSoftly1 votesWell then... Might have to try this.
IcyPepper1 votesDAMN
Ninja tank is stronk. Gotta buy him sometime.
Syn Zykan1 votesAnd if Zed roams for a kill Shen can instantly follow with his ult and mitigate a lot of Zed's burst on top of it. The problem is Zed can just focus farm and push you into turret repeatedly to whittle it away since Shen cannot push a lane nearly as well as Zed. If Zed uses his W to push lane though a gank involving Shen + any jungler with respectable damage is super deadly. It is my favorite lane matchup in the entire game due to Lore and how much it comes down to the mental game instead of just 1 beats the other P:
SwapShadows1 votesIf zed ults a shen, he won't have enough damage to kill him because shen can easily run away and live.
all zed can do is farm and roam
Syn Zykan1 votesI meant if Zed roams Shen can use his Ult to follow. The only time a Zed is going to ult Shen is to either to use it as an escape, if Shen is low on hp, or if Zed is super ahead.
Zed can poke Shen down fairly well in lane if Shen doesn't avoid shurikens and such but it does take a lot for Zed to kill him. A farmed Zed is still pretty scary so you would have to work on shutting him down (works easier with a competent jungler). Zed shoving you into turret is also a pain because after he gets his lifesteal item Shen loses almost all kill pressure in return.
I play quite a bit of Shen, and have even taken him mid to counter both Yasuo and Zed. Like I said the Shen vs Zed is my favorite lane matchup in the game. And while I have never "lost lane" outside of just getting hard camped by their jungler while we had ours just farm non-stop, I have lost in map pressure from Zeds playing it correctly before I got my items
Leblancs Boob2 votesWOW so you're saying that I get to focus my champion pick, my summoner spells, AND my entire item build all to counter one champion who's allowed to rush damage right off the get-go and still be allowed to dominate the rest of my team while i get to have zero kill pressure? I never thought of this thank you.
IcyPepper1 votesimplying 
isn't useful against almost any champion
It reduces resistances, which means you deal more damage. And the enemy, who gets to rush damage, gets it basically halved (Zed does use autos, so I'm taking that into account) and has their movement speed lowered (crippling early game).
Also, seriously, try experimenting with it. Exhaust is a useful spell for a midlaner, and has greater teamfighting utility than ignite does. The support doesn't have to be the only to take it.\
i get to have zero kill pressure?
And again, you should not rely on ignite to get kills. It's useful for snowballing, but it doesn't have great utility (except against healers).
SwapShadows1 votesSee this is the problem, people think ignite is for midlaners and exhaust is for supports.
They are both situational, you pick what you need to help you win the game.
IcyPepper1 votesI saw an adc take cleanse in a tournament last night instead of heal. Lissandra ganked his lane, and Annie support stunned him (I believe) and exhausted him (definitely). He used cleanse and came out of it alive with a triple kill. And I almost doubted him.
But seriously, look at that guys comment. Do people not realize exhaust lowers damage, defense, and speed? That's way better than ignite in a teamfight, because you can amplify your team's damage while lowering the damage your team takes for a couple seconds (and most teamfights, after the hard engage, shouldn't last long with such an advantage).
It's like wards. People think you have to spend 100% of your gold on damage. Then bitch because the support can't ward dragon, baron, top lane, bot lane, and both mid lane bushes at the same time.
Señor Karthus2 votesAre you saying that Zed has more counters and weaknesses than Karthus? LMFAO
SwapShadows1 votesWell lets look at it like this
For a mobile assassin, zed has arguably the most counters out of any mobile/assassin in the game.
For a immobile mage, karthus is fairly decent because he has range, and ganging up on a karthus is actually bad.
Karthus and Zed both have problems but you can't compare there weaknesses because they are completely different champions in different categories.
Señor Karthus1 votesWell lets look at it like this
For a mobile assassin, zed has arguably the most counters out of any mobile/assassin in the game.
For a immobile mage, karthus is fairly decent because he has range, and ganging up on a karthus is actually bad.
Karthus and Zed both have problems but you can't compare there weaknesses because they are completely different champions in different categories.
Zed players are really in denial :S
DemiluniS1 votesmore like butthurts like you who got destroyed by zed are on a salt streak
Señor Karthus1 votesmore like butthurts like you who got destroyed by zed are on a salt streak
Says the guy who comes to troll to every thread I post because you got butthurt in my thread and downvoted to -30 for your hateful comment against fat people.
About the thread, when I see a Zed, I go Vladi, so I am not scared of Zed at all. That doesn't mean he isn't unfairly unbalanced right now.
DemiluniS1 votesI'm not trolling and I'm just like you going through the board threads and picking the one with the subjects I'm interested in.
The way you trying to portrait me is rather pathetic, I couldn't care less, I expressed my honest opinion, and the way you interpretate is your own business.
if a champion got clear strengths and weaknesses he IS balanced. There are plenty of things you can do to counter and outplay zed, and plenty of strategies to beat him. It just seems like a circlejerk around CertainlyT's champions all over the boards rather than direct hate to a specific champion because he's too strong, nothing special.
Drunk Rummate2 votesZed ulted me, I exhausted him and escaped with my life. Unfortunately I still got chunked for 2/3 and he just R swapped to escape, so I'm recalling now while he heals back to full on the minion wave and takes my turret.
Zed ulted me, oh crap my exhaust has a longer cd than his ult so I died. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
WolfChases2 votesWell, there must be someone who remember who am I from the forums...I was a ''Buff Zed'' and ''Zed needs a buff'' guy, yes, I am a Zed main, or I used to be when he was balanced, but NOW, I regret it and I switched because Zed is obnoxiously unhealthy. I won't say that he's OP, no, he is not, but he is indeed unhealthy.
He is an Assassin who's supposed to be single target threat but he's also able to clear waves almost as good as Xerath and Orianna right? Why? Is that what an assassin should be able to do? I posted so many threads about potential Zed nerfs which would not hurt his assassination potential but will actually hurt his laning phase.
Laning against Zed as a mage is not fair because Mage is LITERALLY laning for survival and nothing else, that's unhealthy for this game.
There are some nerf options:
Cut in HALF his AD scalings on E against minions.
ADD some RANGE on second part of his ultimate so he cant just recast it and go back to safety after he dived you. Range of his second R should scale with ultimate level like 450 - 500 - 600 range MAX.
ADD some sort of a DELAY or CD between ULT cast and RECAST so he has to think twice before he dives you. 3 seconds would be fair I think (counts from the moment when he shows up, not from the moment he used his ult)
Remove his passive on minions. This would make bad Zeds even worse because farming is crucial part of this game.
Last idea is the best one I think because it won't hurt just Zed but every single energy or resourceless based champion. BLUE BUFF should NOT grant ENERGY REGENERATION AND CD REDUCTION to energy based and resourceless champions (Riven)
Choose one of those nerfs and Zed will be perfectly balanced and healthy for this game and this meta.
SwapShadows1 votesSo you have a problem with a single target champion wave clearing ...buttttt not when a multi target champion can do it?
Pæan1 votesAlso helps that the Karthus was fricken Neo at dodging shuriken and spins. He played it smart, got early ganks, and made Zed basically useless. Just dont have that type of early communication in soloQ so Zed normally stomps.
SwapShadows1 votesIndeed, props to XWX for playing like a pro
Celeste Benal1 votesAlso helps that the Karthus was fricken Neo at dodging shuriken and spins.
Some of those jukes... Neo Unchained.
Dengeden1 votesBe fair, Hai got 3 man ganked. Yes, with enough jukage, armguard and mana regen, Zed won't kill you. Which is all that really matters in the end, mages have absurd late game scaling. It won't stop him from assassinating your slack-jawed ADC or jungler but that's soloQ for you. And yes, exhaust neuters his team fight considerably. Again, with any luck, your (anti-)split pusher will get a mercurial/hourglass as their 7th item, that way his split push will be on hold too.
SwapShadows1 votesI agree, its fairly easy to kill a ADC in teamfights but only if their support isn't helping them.
Most supports in the game can completely slaughter zeds attempts at killing the ADC