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Tank Supports Items Need a Revaluation

RookPusher··11 votes·1,706 views

IMO, I don't think support tanks (ST) have the option to carry. They don't have the gold, those items cost a boatload, and Sunfire/Thornmail/Deadman's don't do a lot to help your ADC in the laning phase. Conversely, Mage Support have an easier climb up to AP damage while having earlier items that support the ally in lane, and upgrde until useful items at mid/late game.

This is also troubling because both Top and Jungle seem allergic to tanks. Everyone wants a fighter. Which means if you give half a shit about team comp the support is forced to either take a tank or roll the dice. Something I personally and not the most thrilled with.

STs are also at something of a disadvantage because of runes. As a support mage, I can off-set Domination and take Ghost Ward which substantially upgrades my ward time, and vision on the map. To do this as a tank, I need to forego my Magical Footware, which only exacerbates the problem of money again. This made me realize that we're overvaluing tank items for what amounts to "not much." Maybe I'm alone in that but the tank items don't give me a ton of survival skill with the way ADCs are currently.

tl;dr - tank supports pay a lot of items that don't work well, and don't help lane opponents. Please add new items or change the costs of existing items.

22 Comments

Eedat6 votes

I'm really confused by this thread. Are you complaining that tank items aren't carry items? Like....... no shit? They shouldn't be lol. Tank supports don't need any help right now. They're already super strong.

RookPusher2 votes

{quoted}

I'm really confused by this thread. Are you complaining that tank items aren't carry items? Like....... no shit? They shouldn't be lol. Tank supports don't need any help right now. They're already super strong.

I don't need them to be carry, but I do need them to synergize better with their job. Having said that, I don't think of tank supports as particularly OP in the scheme of things. The top tier tank supports have a more traditional support kit (Braum, Taric) than some of the others (Naut, Thresh).

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Curious, what DO you see their job as? If you're hanging on the ability to protect the ADC, take an enchanter. The purpose of a support tank is (for the most part) disrupting the enemy via CC while being a pain in the ass to kill. Your CC is pretty much only reliant on level, and the aforementioned Sunfire/THornmail/Deadmans DO make you very hard to kill.

It sounds more like you're upset about the limited budget that support tanks have to work with, which is really a discussion about itemization costs.

AirSonance2 votes

he did mention how Sunfire, Thornmail, and Deadmans don't have synergy with a carry. The most you'd get is the slow from Deadman's passive and that's about it. Meanwhile the enchanters get Ardent Censer which allows them to buff their carries and boosts shields and heals. Taric is probably the only tank support who can take that item, and even then he's only delaying any more beefy stats he could have had from other items

my two bits, anyways. I think the biggest points are just that tank supports pay for longevity with no interaction with the carries besides "live longer to use more rotations"

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Funny you bring up Ardent, aka the reason all of last season my enchanter builds weren't allowed to deviate from one build. Being able to buff the ADC is nice and all, but should NOT be the job of a tank support. It's enchanter's niche; buff and heal allies. If you give tank supports the ability to provide buffs to ADCs while still being able to do normal tank duties, you've just completely marginalized enchanters.

Personally I don't think tank supports NEED to have a direct interaction with the carry. I'm already diving into the enemy team to grab one of them and hold him down for my ADC/midlaner to use as a punching bag. I shouldn't also have to move his fists for him.

Besides, lack of specific synergy is one of the ways to open up bot for non-Marksmen.

heroikc5 votes

Yeah, I partically don't like how there are limited hp items for support tanks, particularly early on (save for the relic shield line). What are the typical support tank items again? Frozen Heart and Locket of the Iron Solari? Can't say I enjoy feeling so brittle when autofilled...

RookPusher2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I partically don't like how there are limited hp items for support tanks, particularly early on (save for the relic shield line). What are the typical support tank items again? Frozen Heart and Locket of the Iron Solari? Can't say I enjoy feeling so brittle when autofilled...

I'd feel a lot better if Health Regen was jacked up substantially. Damage and CDR are all over the low-tier items. But the ability to recover in lane between fights is (to me) low.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

...item 3401 has 200% health regen.

DragonShea1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L1AOKBKG,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-02-01T02:39:05.063+0000)

...item 3401 has 200% health regen.

and braum has 25.2 HP regen at Lv 18 that is the third highest regen in the game. Taric is the only one that has a crappy Hp regen but that is because of his ability to heal.

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

I'd feel a lot better if Health Regen was jacked up substantially. Damage and CDR are all over the low-tier items. But the ability to recover in lane between fights is (to me) low.

Fair point; the only champ who can do that strat that comes to my mind is Garen, and he's no support.

CHODES AND LOADS3 votes

gloss over the fact that the main catalyst item on support tanks gives 500hp and 200% regen and solves hp problems by itself

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

gloss over the fact that the main catalyst item on support tanks gives 500hp and 200% regen and solves hp problems by itself

You say that as though it's enough to matter when compared to non-support tanks with some combination of Dead Man's, Abyssal Mask, Randuin's, Warmog's, Sunfire Cape, Spirit Visage, Righteous Glory, Adaptive Helm, etc. etc. etc. Not to mention having Grasp of the Undying and Overgrowth stacks. Support Tanks are stuck with desperately finding health to supplement the armor and MR, lest they just become too brittle.

DragonShea3 votes

The problem lies in with the fact that tanks have poor item cost efficiency and they are not able to get the most bang for their buck. Also, people are too obsessed with tanks having damage rather than giving them high utility and disruptive power and then have them build tank so that they can survive while they do their job. tanks should have the highest of the highest base defensive stats while also being able to get items that either:

1: Make them the ultimate beef shields with insane durability to the point that they nigh unkillable unless they are fought 1v5 2: Gain utility that allows them to beter outplay or outmaneuver their opponents with active and/or item passives that can flip a fight in their favor. 3: gaining some extra damage in order to have a better impact damage wise if their team lacks damage, allowing them to become akin to a defensive juggernaut. get in and become a threat by forcing people down Morton's fork. They become able to deal damage but not able to outdamage any dedicated damage dealers.

If tanks have those options of items to pick then it would give tanks of both kind(Top, Bot, Vanguard, Warden) more choice in getting the right item and become more viable.

Kaioko2 votes

I feel like current tank supports are already so innately tanky as it is though not sure why their items would need buffs. Champs like Leona, Nautilus, Tresh or Ali perform pretty well,

Sir Slops2 votes

{quoted}

I feel like current tank supports are already so innately tanky as it is though not sure why their items would need buffs. Champs like Leona, Nautilus, Tresh or Ali perform pretty well,

See I hate this attitude, yes, the best case users of aftershock (chain-cc initiators) are doing well. However, itemization wise your options for utility tank are Righteous Glory, Knights Vow, and Locket. Righteous Glory is to expensive to finish and only good when you are either ahead or playing Cho'gath. Knights Vow was gutted down to a measly 250hp because non-supports used to buy it. Locket, while still good eventually, is SIGNIFICANTLY worse without a ruby sighstone and it's hp shield is weak af without around 1k bonus hp. So your left with the only option of buying the more expensive tanky options intended for top laners and junglers which is also a problem because tanks have the worst gold income item. Even if all these items were buffed to be better thats still only 3 items which means ZERO build variety.

lolibus1 votes

If you need money just take the cs and jungle when the map opens up. In bronze 4/5 people don't know what their doing anyway. They either chase kills or are dead instead of csing.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Tank supports don't have great items but they have amazing runes. I don't know how you think they are at a disadvantage because of runes, Aftershock is by far the best rune in the game. Did you not see the huge spike in winrate for Leona and Rammus right after the runes update?

Floupi1 votes

[deleted]

RookPusher1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fluffy Pikachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L1AOKBKG,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-02-01T11:14:19.861+0000)

Sunfire/Thornmail/Deadman are NOT for supports of course that you feel useless if you build that kind of shit. You should build that kind of items :

item 3401 item 3117 item 3109 item 3190 item 3800 item 3050

The only criticism i have is that the tank support items lack hp a little.

And i don't know what you are talking about, some tanks are super strong in toplane, and the other supports ALSO have to choose between magical footwear and zombie ward

Well then this helps refine my point. Those items do a lot for the team, but not as much for me. I don't want Sunfire and Thornmail because I want kills. I want them because I need to have some determent from them just going HAM on me. Maybe the support tank needs an item that essentially does what Tahm's Thick Skin does.

All too often if it's an ADC and I in a 3v2 I can't help them as much as I'd like. Because I'm just there.

Meserion1 votes

I think the issue here is tank items are extremely inefficient. Its not just because they cost a lot of gold its the fact things like Lethality, Armor and Magic Pen items like item 3071 item 3033 or item 3135 exist and further diminish the value of defenses. It also means for non-tanks, that their defenses barely do anything, unless they have active like item 3157.

For a semi-permanent fix, they need to consider removing all Penetration Effects aside from true damage, and then have Armor and Magic Resist only affect bonus damage applied from items either through bonus AD or bonus damaged applied to ratios. In this way, support's and tank's contribution damage would still count but might need a nerf, and the impact snowballing would be diminished as rushing damage will not equate to massive damage immediately. Additionally, at lower values, Armor and Magic Resist will count for more meaning the raw stats on non-tank items will actually mean something.

Things that might have to change: Tank base damage lowered across the board, Assassin base damage values buffed.

RookPusher1 votes

{quoted}

I think the issue here is tank items are extremely inefficient. Its not just because they cost a lot of gold its the fact things like Lethality, Armor and Magic Pen items like item 3071 item 3033 or item 3135 exist and further diminish the value of defenses. It also means for non-tanks, that their defenses barely do anything, unless they have active like item 3157.

For a semi-permanent fix, they need to consider removing all Penetration Effects aside from true damage, and then have Armor and Magic Resist only affect bonus damage applied from items either through bonus AD or bonus damaged applied to ratios. In this way, support's and tank's contribution damage would still count but might need a nerf, and the impact snowballing would be diminished as rushing damage will not equate to massive damage immediately. Additionally, at lower values, Armor and Magic Resist will count for more meaning the raw stats on non-tank items will actually mean something.

Things that might have to change: Tank base damage lowered across the board, Assassin base damage values buffed.

Yeah, to be clear, they can take all the damage away they want. I've never been an advocate for that, and I don't get why tanks want this stuff. I didn't sign up to kill, I signed up to save.

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