Assassins were more balanced before lethality

Arcane Blue Boi·Jul 8, 2018·67 votes·15,386 views

Remember when you actually had to think about your build as an AD assassin? were some of the items which you had to figure out which one was better and why.

Now you just go in game as an ad assassin and build the same items everygame and lets be honest by this time the game already ended so no need to actually use your brain to try and figure out the best item for the scenario.

If the game actually goes longer, black cleaver and GA/Lifesteal.

91 Comments

BLIGHTBRINGERJul 8, 201825 votes

Funny how Riot introduced items like item 3814 as a way to expand the situational build paths for Assassin's.

Now it's mostly just bought for the bonus AD and Lethality, rather than the Active itself.

I liked Assassin's more back in the day.

Youmuus granting more interesting bonuses like bonus Attack Speed upon Activation. Duskblade being an interesting item that acted in a way like Zed R I suppose (but Duskblade being a more balanced back then).

Pommel KnightJul 9, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L0qHAKjN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-08T21:37:56.580+0000)

Funny how Riot introduced items like Edge of Knight as a way to expand the situational build paths for Assassin's.

Now it's mostly just bought for the bonus AD and Lethality, rather than the active itself.

I liked Assassin's more back in the day.

Youmuus granting more interesting bonuses like bonus Attack Speed upon Activation. Duskblade being an interesting item that acted in a way like Zed R I suppose (but Duskblade being a more balanced back then).

Blame Twitch and Lucian for ruining Yommus.

BLIGHTBRINGERJul 9, 20185 votes

Wait I actually remember the days when item 3142 item 3085 were rushed on Twitch and then he would just Q and R the entire team for a Pentakill lol.

IDEMO NA MUDAJul 9, 20185 votes

Doesn't he do that now? item 3095 : ^)

Anu3isIIJul 9, 20183 votes

How Twicth broke an item that he used for seasons? I just don't understand why you imply he broke it.

AmazoXJul 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

How Twicth broke an item that he used for seasons? I just don't understand why you imply he broke it.

Cause he was melting teams.

aaaustindestroy1Jul 9, 20183 votes

That's the point. Twitch's early game is absolutely horrendous, but he scales incredibly hard into the late game. Once he hits his 3 item power spike he's an absolute threat, otherwise he's useless.

YuGiHoJul 9, 20183 votes

i prefer when item 3142 had crit. my boy Garen deserves his crit chance back

Arcane Blue BoiJul 9, 20182 votes

infinity edge changes ruined what was left of crit garen. SO MUCH FUNNIER than just going for boring lethality. item 3070

TotalJerkJul 9, 201813 votes

Riot expanded armor pen/lethality as a way to pigeonhole assassins into designate "assassin" itemization. They did this because forcing every class to have a designated series of items is a lazy way of making the game easier to balance. If all assassins are building one thing, all bruisers are building one thing, and all ADCs are building one thing, you can just tweak that thing to change the strength of a class as a whole without having to think about how it affects other classes.

My problem with this bullshit is that it turns champions into less of their own thing and more a vehicle for items. The meta is basically decided by who has the best synergy with the best runes and items.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 9, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Riot expanded armor pen/lethality as a way to pigeonhole assassins into designate "assassin" itemization. They did this because forcing every class to have a designated series of items is a lazy way of making the game easier to balance. If all assassins are building one thing, all bruisers are building one thing, and all ADCs are building one thing, you can just tweak that thing to change the strength of a class as a whole without having to think about how it affects other classes.

My problem with this bullshit is that it turns champions into less of their own thing and more a vehicle for items. The meta is basically decided by who has the best synergy with the best runes and items.

yeah, and now assassins abuse an adc item. nice. item 3095

TotalJerkJul 9, 20184 votes

Because that item is just generally broken. ADCs that technically aren't supposed to be building it are buying it anyway because it offers one of the single largest first item powerspikes in the game, and you know who likes early game powerspikes? Assassins.

67chromeJul 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Riot expanded armor pen/lethality as a way to pigeonhole assassins into designate "assassin" itemization.

To be fair: Assassin's don't have any go-to stats like HP, AD, or AP that define the set of items for classes like Tanks, Marksman, and Mages.

Having at least something for assassins would give Riot more levers to balance assassins with, allowing kits with a solid risk/reward dynamic to not go down the same tanky DPS fighter path as "assassins" like Lee Sin, Irelia, Akali, Katarina, Fizz, Ekko, Kassadin, etc. This is a re-occurring problem with assassins in every meta. A lot of the champions released as assassins in the OG aren't even considered as assassins anymore due to their kits never allowing that kind of itemization to feel good on them.

One of the biggest problems facing the assassin archetype is that building enough defenses to survive twice as long and thus do twice as much damage is frequently more preferable to building enough damage to double damage, leading to a lot of tanky assassin metas and builds: at which point such champions aren't assassins anymore, they're just fighters with very solid escape skills.

five oh tree Jul 9, 20188 votes

Erh... no, I think you're remembering a different game.

Assassins have never built bork (except Zed in early seasons). Certain jungling ones built hydra for the clears mostly ( Khazix Rengar Shaco )

They've always rushed flat pen. I've only been playing since during league of black cleavers, but since then, it's always been all flat pen item rush. Maybe the occasional item 3035 or item 3156 depending on the meta. They've always had cookie cutter builds. You'd only build anything else if the game was dragging on too long.

NevrankroatonJul 9, 20185 votes

Na man, don't let people think that old meta weren't heaven, these nostalgies glasses need to stay.

People talking about the f*cking jungle like Riot is satan when jungle always was a terrible piece of garbage to balance, that the famous "S3 had a lot of champs" was more than jungle was weak as fuck and about who could abuse the news items and find cheesy way to abuse the jungle to win (early jungler were still strong).

And now, it is "Assassin build ten different items". Na, assassin built other items because they didn't have a choice, they scaled terribly and people BEGGED for them to have solution for the assassin itemisation. Riot wanted to make different pen armor item for them so they could specialize in killing squishy and having more versatility WHILE being good at their job.

Akali is SO HOTJul 9, 20185 votes

Flat Armor pen is infinitely better than Lethality. Brutalizer just by itself was one of the best items in the game. They might've seemed balanced because flat armor pen existed during the time when Assassins were complete garbage (excluding Season 3). If we had flat armor pen right now instead of lethality, then Assassins would be completely busted.

NA DarklarikJul 9, 20185 votes

I think this just boils down to the fact that they need to remove Duskblade item 3147

And nerf item 3095 to like, 150% Crit and just have it scale harder with Attack speed so Assassins wont go for it.

remakoroJul 9, 20185 votes

At this point all crit items give AS and 0 AD. item 3086 item 3046 item 3094 item 3085 item 3087

So there would be 0 difference.

Btw its hilarious what Zeal is the only source of crit on the rift. wtf.

NA DarklarikJul 9, 20183 votes

{quoted}

At this point all crit items give AS and 0 AD.

So there would be 0 difference.

Btw its hilarious what Zeal is the only source of crit on the rift. wtf.

It would make a difference, Assasins dont want to buy more attack speed, which you would have too for this item 3095 item to be useful if you adjusted the way this item scales even harder than the previous pass. Dumping 3200 Gold on a item which will only be effective if you buy another Non-AD scaling item is a massive gold waste for assassins who want raw AD to scale their abilities, something those items you listed dont give (DPS =/= Burst). Investing around 6K gold just to have a stronger Auto-attack every 1.5 - 2 seconds is not something any assassin with a Brain would do.

Then you would just have to delete Duskblade item 3147 and maybe assassins would actually have to think of what to build.

Buzzkillington0Jul 8, 20184 votes

What? Before lethality there was flat armor pen, which was better early and snowballed even harder because it didn't scale with levels. Literally every AD assassin could start with over 14 armor pen and would build anything that had a brutalizer. item 3142 item 3156 item 3071 item 3035 were core almost every game.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 9, 20181 votes

serrated dick has more powerspike than brutalizer and its cheaper

Akali is SO HOTJul 9, 20184 votes

Not even close

KmSneakyJul 9, 20182 votes

Dirk 1100g, 25 AD 10 lethality +40 ad dmg every 30 sec after killing a minion brutalizer 1337g if I remember correctly, 25 AD, 10 Ar pen, 10% CDR

The main difference here is the lethality < ar pen in early game and the CDR, but dirk is cheaper and compensates the pen difference with flat 40 dmg every 30 second, so every wave ... dirk is cheaper , stronger in fast trades (what assassins are looking for) so it is fair to say that dirk provides a better powerspike than the old brutalizer.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 9, 20181 votes

exept the fact i have less 9 armor than before thanks to the new runes. so serrated dick actually enables champions to do more than brutalizer did.

KmSneakyJul 9, 20182 votes

But you know assassin players don't care about facts ! it's all about them flashy moves.

ISLAMICWARRIOR99Jul 9, 20184 votes

Yup. Assasains were hardly an issue then riot saw a whiny post on boards, changed everything about them, and now theyre all either op as shit or useless with maybe 2-3 in a good spot where theyre strong enough to carry but not braindead bots who buy duskblade and then mash all their keys on the carry at once cough talon and k6 cough

MrHaZeYoJul 8, 20183 votes

I mean Flat Armor Pen is better then Lethality and pre Leth we had 3 items with Flat Armor Pen, one being Maw.

ISLAMICWARRIOR99Jul 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean Flat Armor Pen is better then Lethality and pre Leth we had 3 items with Flat Armor Pen, one being Maw.

Flat pen was strong but not stupid op, lethality has been either broken or useless for its entire existance

MrHaZeYoJul 9, 20181 votes

Actually, the only reason Leth ever seemed broken was due to the calculation change on how Armor Pen and Reduction was done.

Flat Pen was always stronger the Leth because you got the full amount upon purchase and not based on level.

ISLAMICWARRIOR99Jul 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Actually, the only reason Leth ever seemed broken was due to the calculation change on how Armor Pen and Reduction was done.

Flat Pen was always stronger the Leth because you got the full amount upon purchase and not based on level.

Leth being based off level was dumb as fuck

xXImNotABotXxJul 9, 20183 votes

Ahem Remember Pre-Lethality Talon? Every Talon main does. W/O lethality, you kill a lot of adcs too. A.K.A Quinn and MF.

GigglesOJul 9, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Remember when you actually had to think about your build as an AD assassin?

The other side of the coin is that you actually had to think about what you wanted to build against assassins because tank items actually had value. However, that was declared as unfun for the assassin mains who could not 100-0 the enemy champions, because that was their fantasy role.

My issue with the assassin role is I don't find the "fantasy" to be balance able just like I don't find the tank "fantasy" to be viable to balance.

How do you balance something being able to 100% kill anything while still having the safety to get in and out? To top it off, tanks and supports and even control mages were nerfed to the point where they are unable to stop assassins unless they get the very first reaction off. That is why we are where we are right now where everyone does assassin level damage, because at least if you react to them jumping you, they might die first.

The reason I don't think tanks fantasy is balance-able is because I see it as never dying. You also can't balance a class around being 100% unkillable.

My proposed change is that we revert assassins back to when they just finished off players at lower hp. Sure everyone is going to complain that assassins are weak, but fuck it, if assassins are able to 100-0 everyone instantly there are 4 other classes that can't play the game (tanks, supports, adc's, mages)

kurnubegoJul 9, 20181 votes

"My proposed change is that we revert assassins back to when they just finished off players at lower hp." When exactly that was the case? Don't point me time frame, point me what kind of champions and meta was currently dominating at that time. Leathality nerfed assassins. Even at max level you don't receive the armor pen you did after purchasing the item. Add that to runes and masteries. That was 52 flat armor pen at mid game.The change happened because once assassin got 2 kills in lane it span out of control so rapidly that usually it ment gg.

GigglesOJul 10, 20181 votes

It was around the S2 tank/diver meta where you had adc's building Randuins (70 armor 500 hp) Banshees veil (not the ap version we have now, it gave hp+MR) and sometimes warmogs (it gave 1500 hp). Shortly after this meta we had the adc's building Spirit visage/warmogs meta because well randuins and banshees got nerfed. But then warmogs and visage got nerfed too.... (They also killed FoN "We don't want healing to feel silly", so they gave a silly passive to warmogs that requires you to get out of combat... yea great...)

Everyone had so much defense, and defense was so high that you couldn't just one shot anything with anyone. That is unless someone skipped getting randuins/banshees.

TBH I know why they got rid of that meta, it was super boring to watch nothing happen for the first 30 seconds of a team fight, just for someone to finally die. But I did really enjoy playing the game back then, because 1 lux rotation didn't mean I died, 1 talon rotation didn't mean I died. I did however die once from full hp to leblank... she DFG'd me and hit every single ability as I hit my ulti as mundo... me using my ulti is actually what killed me because the damage hit .5 seconds after the hp cost was deducted (whoops).

I loved that you could build enough armor to ignore ad champions entirely and auto win just because the enemy team didn't pick a mage. Back then we didn't have mindless mashing of buttons (well except maybe garen/sona) you actually had to think about your team comp (for mixed damage), and adc's were balanced on kiting, Assassins were balanced on finish off players at somewhere between 60% hp. CC didn't mean you died, you just waited for it to end. Tanks were big fucking meat shields that would take skill shots for their team (now I don't dare block shit, they better dodge). Sure we had issues back then, but it was mostly localized to 1-2 over tuned champs. (or bugs, like the huge aoe bug where karthus/talon were suddenly gods, or the LB bug where she could instantly kill you by using her ulti, yorick never dying bug and etc... )

MrHaZeYoJul 11, 20182 votes

You know, if you think about it. If ADCs and Mages bought a true tank item nowadays, it wouldn't feel like a giant one shot and also lessening the ability to do one shot potential damage.

Other then that, your posts were a good read, I miss Season 3/4.

GigglesOJul 12, 20181 votes

Thank you!

I also agree with your statement about building tank items reducing overall damage. The only issue I see with that happening right now in the current meta is that one defense item holds close to no value.

MrHaZeYoJul 12, 20181 votes

Ya your not wrong, back then a Randuins or old Banshees was the difference between LB or Zed popping you.

So in turn now we all build glass cannon which works two ways. We dish out a metric shitload of damage while having almost zero resistances to stop the metric shitload of damage so it creates the illusion that damage is more absurd then it really is.

Hate daddy just wrote a amazing post on the whole Damage Creep thing.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2zd8q2ws-blaming-damage-creep-for-current-balance-issues-missed-an-array-of-much-larger-problems-at-hand

GigglesOJul 12, 20181 votes

I mean he isn't necessarily wrong. We could easily be mislabeling all of the issues as damage creep. It is really hard to blame long term systematic issues like Defense nerfs (Randuins noloner givin 70 armor and 500 hp), lethality + addition of black cleaver changes making it so that you can pen more armor (atleast more than really early seasons of lol). It all plays its part into the apparent higher damage.

For example, I really don't remember getting more pentas than I did in S1 with twitch. I built 100% crit (+60% dodge lol PD stacking) With a blood thirster and Tiamat. Oh how I miss trinity force crits. I do also however miss tank twitch builds where you could still do damage but have lots of survive-ability.

CosnirakJul 9, 20183 votes

I agree that assassins are very much a problem right now but lethality is not the issue with assassins. They may have been more balanced before lethality, I'm not gonna take a stance on that right now, but lethality is not the reason why they are unbalanced right now.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 9, 20181 votes

Atleast the builds werent so cookie cutter

CosnirakJul 9, 20182 votes

I don't have good data from then on hand or anything but from what I remember they were pretty cookie cutter. They basically bought armor pen, bloodthirster, and 1-2 AD+MR items.

Also the level of cookie cutterness of builds often relates at least as much to the availability of data and a community consensus as it does to what's the actual best build in a situation. And even back then guides and such were plentiful and popular, though the quality of the data was lower so there may have been a little more diversity in part due to that.

Beacon AcademyJul 9, 20183 votes

Tired of people saying assassins need to 100-0 people...

I mean like bro... Since when do assassins attack people from the front?

They don't.

They're supposed to be opportunists that wait until you are cut off from the rest of your team or when you are vulnerable during the end part of a team fight.

Just stupid watching assassins just dive in from plain sight, get a kill, and get back out because they have the damage and mobility to do so.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 9, 20182 votes

yeh i've stated this in multiple places, including here if im not wrong

HäxelJul 9, 20183 votes

lethalaty as a stat is not realy the reason. After all old item 3142 was like 10 times better as current, all what was added were other items like item 3147 item 3814 and item 3095 . And Duskblade once had the zed Ult instead of the kha passive and the wards destroy passive. Also it was built out of a item 1038 instead of a item 3133 so less cdr on assassins. And item 3134 gave mobility for a short time instead of extra dmg.

But looking at lethalaty as a stat:

Ghostblade once gave 20 Flatpen which you got directly at buying. Now you get 18 lethalaty, which is for example worth 11,2/13,2/15,2/18 armorpen at lv 1/6/11/18. So buying at 10 min ingame ghostblade gave you once already gave you more of the value as you now get lv 18, but far more as you get now at 10 min.
Ghostblade was once built out of the Brutalizer and instead of the 55ad it had 30ad and 15% crit. But the Brutalizer alone had the same ad as or but both secondary stats, 10 cdr and 10 armorpen, whcih is at min 6 far more worth as the 10 lethalaty from dirk.

Zed geniusJul 9, 20182 votes

Yea, and since Riot has admitted that they Inted in the assassin update, they might as well give us old arm pen back

Breezey BoyJul 9, 20182 votes

I've been playing since season 5, I can accurately says that it's when Lethality was introduced that the game started going downhill. Nobody asked for it, nobody needed it, Assassins were fine before then, so I don't know why the hell Riot decided to make that change.

ShablagooJul 9, 20182 votes

That was because we had armor pen runes, and only two real armor pen items. Are you specificaally talking about zed because no assassin but him built bork.