Outrageous Hecarim change

The Ecdysiast·Dec 10, 2015·41 votes·2,883 views

So instead of fixing the minions blocking...

Champions who can walk through them are getting that removed?

Yes. Because that's the issue.

68 Comments

COWmanLordDec 10, 201511 votes

Did people not notice that they revert the pathing changes that caused the insane creep block? Here is the quote from the patch

"All minion pathing changes made in 5.22 and 5.23 have been reverted. We’re right back to pre-preseason while we work on a better implementation."

Also as a hecarim main I can live with the nerfs. The triforce changes were pretty great for him, and in generally he has a lot of good options for builds. As long as he can ignore unit collision on his E I am fine, because that is his main tool for setting up a good engage.

YumaS2AstralDec 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Did people not notice that they revert the pathing changes that caused the insane creep block? Here is the quote from the patch

"All minion pathing changes made in 5.22 and 5.23 have been reverted. We’re right back to pre-preseason while we work on a better implementation."

Also as a hecarim main I can live with the nerfs. The triforce changes were pretty great for him, and in generally he has a lot of good options for builds. As long as he can ignore unit collision on his E I am fine, because that is his main tool for setting up a good engage.

The only great change for Hecarim on Triforce was adding the 10% cooldown reduction, but other than that, Trinity Force has been nerfed for him. Less AD, less attack speed, less movement speed, and lack of ability power, which were all stats that Hecarim benefits.

Pierce The VealDec 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The only great change for Hecarim on Triforce was adding the 10% cooldown reduction, but other than that, Trinity Force has been nerfed for him. Less AD, less attack speed, less movement speed, and lack of ability power, which were all stats that Hecarim benefits.

Yeah pretty much. And besides, hecarim had more than enough ways to get cool down reduction.

SirHeavyScrotumDec 11, 20151 votes

Yeah but 10% cdr is more important on hec than 30 ap (his AP scalings are trash), 5 ad (his ad scalings are also pretty trash, but not quite as trash), a little attack speed, and 2% move speed. Your Q is your main damage source, so having early access to CDR is much better than the other stats that old trinity force brought.

BluePolarizerDec 12, 20151 votes

the 30 AP is actually quite significant since it adds ~50 damage to his burst. The gimmicky 20% crit is unreliable and I don't even consider it to be on the item since you can't autoattack enough to actually use it.

SirHeavyScrotumDec 13, 20151 votes

Hecarim's damage doesn't really come from burst, and if it does it's because he's got a big E charged up and a sheen proc, not because of the AP scaling on his ult. Also ~50 damage isn't that much after about level 9. Hecarim's damage in a dual comes from getting his Q stacks up then doing a lot of damage over an extended period of time. Having earlier access to cdr helps you do that much better. Also, during that time you should be autoing frequently in between your other spells, I heard SickMotion (a really good hecarim player that was Masters last season) say that the attack speed/crit was the most underrated part of triforce on hec because you need something to do between your spells.

For the record reducing the base hp on a champion that fights by extended fighting dealing a lot of damage over time is a huge nerf in principle though.

BluePolarizerDec 13, 20151 votes

surprisingly if you do the math, the AP does matter since there's no difference between the current sheen proc. The crit and AS matters mid-game, I agree, but it doesn't matter late game since after you initiate, you either don't die and in which case you melt their team with Qs, or you die and it doesn't matter.

Pierce The VealDec 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Did people not notice that they revert the pathing changes that caused the insane creep block? Here is the quote from the patch

"All minion pathing changes made in 5.22 and 5.23 have been reverted. We’re right back to pre-preseason while we work on a better implementation."

Also as a hecarim main I can live with the nerfs. The triforce changes were pretty great for him, and in generally he has a lot of good options for builds. As long as he can ignore unit collision on his E I am fine, because that is his main tool for setting up a good engage.

Well the creep block made him stronger. So his winrate went up. Then they removed his lack of creep block, but also reverted the creep block. So now hecarim has no definitive advantage over anyone else anymore, and he's stuck with a passive that gives 30% of bonus kovement speed as AD

SirHeavyScrotumDec 11, 20152 votes

For the record, they knew they were going to revert the minion pathing changes when they changed hec.

SirHeavyScrotumDec 11, 20153 votes

As a Hecarim main do you not see how this affects his lane trading? The quick trading pattern for Hecarim has been deal as much damage as you can for free-ish then run back into your minion wave where they can't chase you. Now they're taking that away from him and reducing his base hp, so that he can't avoid trading back and can't take the trade back as well as he used to could (which he was already pretty shitty at taking damage early anyway). I think they're just trying to force Hecarim into the jungle honestly, not that this change will single-handedly do that, but they've been trying to nerf top lane hec for a while now.

Pierce The VealDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

As a Hecarim main do you not see how this affects his lane trading? The quick trading pattern for Hecarim has been deal as much damage as you can for free-ish then run back into your minion wave where they can't chase you. Now they're taking that away from him and reducing his base hp, so that he can't avoid trading back and can't take the trade back as well as he used to could (which he was already pretty shitty at taking damage early anyway). I think they're just trying to force Hecarim into the jungle honestly, not that this change will single-handedly do that, but they've been trying to nerf top lane hec for a while now.

He's never been good at dueling really.

I don't understand why they're so obsessed with putting a champion into one specific role/lane and keeping him out of all the other lanes.

I Miss CannonDec 11, 20153 votes

Because Riot considers him toxic in Top Lane.

BluePolarizerDec 12, 20151 votes

I do not understand how Hecarim can possibly be considered more toxic than Tryndamere, who is the definition of toxicity and unfun.

The EcdysiastDec 12, 20151 votes

My thread isn't really about Hecarim so much as them beginning to remove movement through units instead of just making it fair where everyone moves through them.

BluePolarizerDec 12, 20151 votes

I have hundreds of ranked games on Hecarim in high plat/low diamond.

Each nerf individually isn't that big but taken together (-110 HP at level 18, -100 HP from dead man's, removal of passive) it's a pretty significant nerf. He lost something like 2 entire spell rotations of an AD assassin in effective HP after armor or an entire 6 item ADC crit late game, and his early game has also been significantly nerfed due to his large hitbox.

Lovely PantsDec 10, 20156 votes

Believe the reasoning given behind this was they decided it wasn't a satisfying point of power for any individual champion to have as part of their budget period, so they're opportunistically removing it. Kind of like how they phased out global passives.

Not like anyone doesn't seem to realize that minion blocking is frustrating. They've just failed in their recent attempts to improve the experience. Different conversation, really.

FHMarshyDec 10, 20155 votes

it went to his e.........

Pierce The VealDec 10, 201510 votes

{quoted}

it went to his e.........

Yeah so now he needs to use an ability on a 20-14 second cooldown to do what he did before. Seems fair.

AbyssphereDec 11, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Yeah so now he needs to use an ability on a 20-14 second cooldown to do what he did before. Seems fair.

It's not supposed to be fair, it's supposed to be a nerf. Maybe they don't think having constant unit collision evasion is fair on a champion like Hecarim?

BlitzidiousDec 11, 20151 votes

It isn't fair on fizz either.

3TWarriorDec 13, 20152 votes

they probably didn't think it would matter when once maxed, his playful trixter is on a very low cooldown

BlitzidiousDec 13, 20151 votes

Precisely the reason why it should be removed on fizz. :P

3TWarriorDec 13, 20152 votes

although at the same time, counter-intuiitively, assassins are supposed to be hit and run characters whereas that playstyle is too powerful in league because then they just switch targets when the first is dead

Pierce The VealDec 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's not supposed to be fair, it's supposed to be a nerf. Maybe they don't think having constant unit collision evasion is fair on a champion like Hecarim?

Let's remove any champion's passive. Now is that fair?

Why is it that adcs and a few other champions all instantly get compensation as soon as they are even touched? That's not fair. They remove the feel good mechanics on a champion when they could have just toned down a few numbers if they really wanted him to be balanced. What they actually wanted was to discourage people from playing him.

3TWarriorDec 13, 20151 votes

teleporting hecarim ganks at level 3 with 2-300 AD is kinda funny though XD

EcchiOtakuTMDec 13, 20151 votes

SO nerf hecarim because of riot's screwing up the minion pathing? Seems legit, FYI after the minion pathing was fixed back to normal hecarim's slight boost from bad pathing is now gone and he's underwhelming so please refrain from your stupidity........

Troll for TrumpDec 11, 201511 votes

But why does Fizz get to keep it.

BârdDec 11, 20151 votes

Well, he got to keep DFG when the rest of us lost it, so why not this?

Troll for TrumpDec 11, 201510 votes

Idk. Seems fishy.

LajneenDec 11, 20153 votes

Because unlike Hecarim he's useless.

Troll for TrumpDec 11, 20151 votes

That's why there are so many rage threads about his E... :I

But he's super toned down now; Full AP fizz was such bs.

FadedpfDec 10, 20154 votes

Fizz Top kek. And ive got a near instant dash and 2 hops that make me untargetable

YumaS2AstralDec 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Top kek. And ive got a near instant dash and 2 hops that make me untargetable

Don't know why nobody uses him.

Seriously, Guinsoo + BotRK + tank Fizz is insane.

IcyPepperDec 11, 20153 votes

A near ~10% pickrate isn't "nobody" :P

That's pretty average.

Rustling BushDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Don't know why nobody uses him.

Seriously, Guinsoo + BotRK + tank Fizz is insane.

because Irelia does it better

YumaS2AstralDec 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner Grey,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KymfskAG,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2015-12-11T07:36:49.965+0000)

because does it better

Not so much. Fizz has much better pick off potential and utility than Irelia. His ult is a potential AoE CC. Fizz has a lot of magic damage which gives him an advantage over Irelia against enemies who stack armor. For example, Malphite, which is a hard counter to Irelia, is not as effective of a counter against AD Fizz, due to his Seastone Trident. Finally, Fizz is more mobile than Irelia, because she can only close the gap against an enemy if there is a nearby low health minion - her Q can be used on a champion, but then she can't close the gap again if that champion manages to disengage. Fizz does not have this problem because he can use Q and then E. His E can also be used to go over walls, something that Irelia can't do.

In short, the advantages that Fizz has over Irelia:

Utility (AoE knockup ult, slow)
Mobility
Magic damage
Stronger late game

While Irelia also has advantages over Fizz:

Stronger early/mid game
Sustain
True damage
Her hard CC is avaliable more often

AbyssphereDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Top kek. And ive got a near instant dash and 2 hops that make me untargetable

His mobility is the reason his unit collision passive is vaguely acceptable. It hardly matters to be good at running through minions when you primarily dash through them anyway. I wouldn't say no if it got removed but it is nowhere near as big a deal for Fizz to ignore minions as it is for Hecarim.

BluePolarizerDec 12, 20151 votes

in my opinion, if Fizz couldn't walk through minions he'd be trash since his Q is very short ranged and early game you need to reserve E for escapes or as an execute nuke. The passive is very important early game.

Silents429Dec 11, 20154 votes

Curious but when you see the nerf do you get 1 thought in your head and explode with rage and complain, or do you actually sit and think about this from a non bias perspective?

It's such a weird aspect to a champions kit that isn't really fair to have, there is also the somewhat annoying problem hec had where he could stand over minions to prevent the enemy from taking CS on the rare occasions Hecarim Top is a thing.

But from the perspective of his main and most commonly picked role. The Jungle.

What the hell does this nerf really matter? He engages every fight and gank with his E anyway and his ult is a long range gap closer, being able to go through minions was just more power then he should have and it might open up more possibilities to actually fix Hecarim so he isn't solely reliant on snowballing to be useful.

Pierce The VealDec 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Curious but when you see the nerf do you get 1 thought in your head and explode with rage and complain, or do you actually sit and think about this from a non bias perspective?

It's such a weird aspect to a champions kit that isn't really fair to have, there is also the somewhat annoying problem hec had where he could stand over minions to prevent the enemy from taking CS on the rare occasions Hecarim Top is a thing.

But from the perspective of his main and most commonly picked role. The Jungle.

What the hell does this nerf really matter? He engages every fight and gank with his E anyway and his ult is a long range gap closer, being able to go through minions was just more power then he should have and it might open up more possibilities to actually fix Hecarim so he isn't solely reliant on snowballing to be useful.

Have you ever even played Hecarim? His passive was the way he fought in top lane, he used the cs to kite. And let's be honest, just because siv hd was able to block last hits doesn't mean it's a viable strategy in toplane. You DON'T want to get hit as him.

Why was it more power than he should have? Yasuo gets double crit and a shield, kassadin gets reduced damage and can also ignore unit collision and so can fizz. Why does teemo gain attack speed from exiting stealth for that matter? You could argue that all of those are things that those champions shouldn't have. Some of them are actually even more tacked on. Hecarim's Q was built around standing inside people to hit as many people as possible.

Silents429Dec 11, 20153 votes

Okay have YOU played Hecarim top? You pop up his W and use your Q, Suddenly minion damage means nothing and you start wittling down the enemy health bar with ease. He was and is overwhelming to play against top lane, and I can't stress enough that this "nerf" has literally no change for Jungle Hecarim where he is played most of the time anyway.

It is more power then he should have because minions offer a form of safety, you don't give a durable sustained high damage fighter the ability to burst through that safety for free, making it tied to his E means he has to commit to fights instead of just getting off cheap harass.

Teemo has an attack speed boost to encourage his hit and run tactics that IS a theme to his kit.
Kassadin was originally created as an anti mage and the reduced damage was to help against the burst of other mages, fitting his theme just the same.
Are you seriously going to cite Yasuo when talking about balance? Who cares what he has, no one has said his double crit was a good thing.
Fizz can't go through minions the same way Hecarim can, he requires use of his abilities to maneuver and the point of his kit and theme is to be slippery to catch.

Pierce The VealDec 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Okay have YOU played Hecarim top? You pop up his W and use your Q, Suddenly minion damage means nothing and you start wittling down the enemy health bar with ease. He was and is overwhelming to play against top lane, and I can't stress enough that this "nerf" has literally no change for Jungle Hecarim where he is played most of the time anyway.

It is more power then he should have because minions offer a form of safety, you don't give a durable sustained high damage fighter the ability to burst through that safety for free, making it tied to his E means he has to commit to fights instead of just getting off cheap harass.

Teemo has an attack speed boost to encourage his hit and run tactics that IS a theme to his kit.

Kassadin was originally created as an anti mage and the reduced damage was to help against the burst of other mages, fitting his theme just the same.

Are you seriously going to cite Yasuo when talking about balance? Who cares what he has, no one has said his double crit was a good thing.

Fizz can't go through minions the same way Hecarim can, he requires use of his abilities to maneuver and the point of his kit and theme is to be slippery to catch.

The point

You

Also, I'm gonna tell you a shocking secret. Fizz and Kassadin ALSO don't have unit collision as part of their passives. So you know what? Fizz CAN go through minions the same way Hecarim can.

Hecarim had his unit collison passive because his theme was ghost that runs through the enemy team. Spectral. Rider.

And yes, I have played Hecarim top. And in fact, when playing Hecarim, I exclusively play him top. But the removal of the unit collision passive nerfed him in a way that made him feel BAD to play. He isn't able to trade without minions in toplane, but you know what else they could have removed that would have fixed toplane hecarim altogether? HIS HEALING FROM LANE MINIONS. Or, you know, they could have prevented the cooldown reduction passive on his q from SACKING FROM LANE MINIONS. Neither of those nerfs would be unfair. Nobody would complain about them, but when they remove his passive, people can't help but feel upset.

Silents429Dec 12, 20151 votes

Nobody would complain about them

Lol ok

Pierce The VealDec 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lol ok

You're right.

There are people who complain about everything. Ok, let me rephrase, a LOT FEWER people would complain about Hecarim's heal or his rampgage stacks being toned down as opposed to his passive being removed

Silents429Dec 13, 20151 votes

Right, let's cripple his jungle clear, no one would complain about that.

AbyssphereDec 11, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Have you ever even played Hecarim? His passive was the way he fought in top lane, he used the cs to kite. And let's be honest, just because siv hd was able to block last hits doesn't mean it's a viable strategy in toplane. You DON'T want to get hit as him.

Why was it more power than he should have? Yasuo gets double crit and a shield, kassadin gets reduced damage and can also ignore unit collision and so can fizz. Why does teemo gain attack speed from exiting stealth for that matter? You could argue that all of those are things that those champions shouldn't have. Some of them are actually even more tacked on. Hecarim's Q was built around standing inside people to hit as many people as possible.

Using creep block to your advantage to win trades is total bullshit and his viability top should not be based on being able to do that. Give him the tools to win trades via actually playing them well, not just by running back through his minions quicker than the enemy can.

Fizz and Kass's unit collision passives are totally random and could do with being removed, but they don't have the same toxic connotations that Hec's did because neither of those champions go for extended trades in the middle of waves and both of them prefer to move by mobility anyway, meaning it's less impactful on them. They could probably stand to remove it from Fizz so he wouldn't have quite as easy a time running back towards his minions after a trade, but it could be removed on Kassadin today without anyone noticing, I'm sure. For all we know, the next time those champions are nerfed, their ability to avoid unit collision will be removed.

Frankly I feel like Hecarim players should be glad that passive got removed. He can get buffed in actually noticeable, fun areas now.

Pierce The VealDec 12, 20151 votes

{quoted} Using creep block to your advantage to win trades is total bullshit and his viability top should not be based on being able to do that. Give him the tools to win trades via actually playing them well, not just by running back through his minions quicker than the enemy can.

Frankly I feel like Hecarim players should be glad that passive got removed. He can get buffed in actually noticeable, fun areas now.

He used waves to poke people down, much like ranged champions do.

And the reason we're not "glad" is because we know he won't be buffed in "noticeable, fun areas." Look at hecarim's patch history. His only buffs are: 1) early game sustain 2) mana cost buffs.

BluePolarizerDec 12, 20151 votes

I strongly doubt he's getting buffed but if he is, I would prefer that they keep his main identity and don't straight up buff his abilities, and instead just give him his base stats back and maybe buff his mana regen, HP regen, W's AP scaling or base armor slightly.

The EcdysiastDec 12, 20151 votes

Okay, let me tell you some things:

Please don't just start off your comments by harassing people.
I did think of that. Did you not read past the title when you decided to leave a harassing comment, assuming someone who doesn't even own Hecarim is a Hecarimmain?

Moving through units is on several champions, and at times those champions have all been very strong. It's not because moving through units is a broken mechanic. It's because being STOPPED by your OWN minions is a broken aspect.