Build/Position Diversity is not a good thing. Stop preaching like it is.

The Ecdysiast··6 votes·2,316 views

One champion is not supposed to be able to adequately fill in 3 or even 4 different positions. There are supposed to be downsides to lacking knowledge of positions, or intentionally playing as if you lack that knowledge. The same goes for items. You should not be able to perform well if you're building as if you don't know which stat your champion scales.

Simply put, there need to be consequences for playing the game poorly. You shouldn't be able to rely on a champion or certain build in a way that lets it completely overcome the downsides of picking the wrong champion for the position or picking the wrong items for the champion.

In essence, it's the same as the concept that you shouldn't have enough damage to 100-0 someone with a single ability even after you missed all 3 of the others. A champion or build shouldn't be powerful enough to overcome what would otherwise be hefty mistakes.


Ezreal Ezreal, more than any other champion, often falls into not one but both of these problems because his kit allows him to abuse changes to items or runes intended for classes other than marksmen. Ezreal jungle, Runeglaive mid, and most recently the double-tear build. And the double tear changes coming in 9.6 are why I'm bringing this up.

Because they're perfectly healthy for bringing Ezreal in line. And people are actually mistaken in calling it build diversity. Any build that becomes the optimum for a champion is the exact opposite of diversity. It allows him to have total damage on par with the old AP Ezreal without the downsides, but also keep all the pluses of building AD since it still includes Gauntlet and his Q still scales AP as well.

That lack of consequence for building a mix of items that shouldn't work together on a single champion is why it needs to be removed. And I think it's the right choice to make tears unique-- because it doesn't affect any other champions. But it also doesn't unfairly punish a full AD or full AP build on Ezreal, which the only other option-- namely reducing his scaling of one or the other or both-- would do.


With those things in mind, what should actually be considered build diversity are things like the option to go either full on-hit or full crit, or full AP OR full AD. With the downsides that come with choosing one or the other. Where we have problems with such build diversity is when a champion's damage is just so high that they work well late game almost regardless of build, but that's usually easier to put in check by adjusting early scaling and/or synergy with income runes.


Edit: In summary, Exploiting game changes in a way that wasn't intended by their design is not a good thing. When Riot brings things in line to make sure champions have the weaknesses and strengths they're supposed to, they aren't damaging the game. They're only hurting the feelings of people who are abusing changes instead of using them as intended.

What they're doing with tear is no different from when they changed Runeglaive because it had the unintended effect of taking away AP Ezreal's main weakness.

Meh. At the end of the day downvotes from people who are wrong aren't going to change the fact that they're changing it. So kudos to you for voicing bias for a particular champion in the face of them receiving balance changes.

31 Comments

The thigh guy3 votes

And yet we continue to let yasuo be relevant in 3 roles and no one bats an eye.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KyImElhe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-20T01:06:27.777+0000)

And yet we continue to let yasuo be relevant in 3 roles and no one bats an eye.

Well, wanna know the difference?

He's not relevant in 3 different roles.

He's under-performing in 3 different roles.

3TWarrior1 votes

considering most of his counters are meta now?

even with that, the best yasuo maintain winrates between 60% and 80% and his ban-rate is above 50% in all divisions?

if his earlier 20% pick rate was any indication, only a quarter of his players left because he got countered

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

considering most of his counters are meta now?

even with that, the best yasuo maintain winrates between 60% and 80% and his ban-rate is above 50% in all divisions?

if his earlier 20% pick rate was any indication, only a quarter of his players left because he got countered

  1. Well, yes. Buffing a champion's counters, pushing their performance down, means they don't require further nerfs. Although he was nerfed, with the fact that building Phantom Dancer, despite the buff to defense, is now weaker on him since it doesn't take him to the cooldown cap on his Q.

  2. Not sure who you're using for reference, but according to champion.gg the average win rates for players with 200+ games on Yasuo are snuggly between 54 and 56%. Which is actually low for a mid-high difficulty champion.

  3. What that shows us is even despite poor performance he's still a fun champion to play.

I do think something should be done about his W, the worst aspect of his kit. It doesn't mesh with a skirmisher and certainly doesn't belong on an offensive champion. I think changing that will still leave the aspects of his kit that make him enjoyable.

Though it may also help to remove the doubled crit change so he can actually build as if he's a fighter or assassin instead of being forced to conform to ADC items.

3TWarrior1 votes

phantom dancer barely leaves him weaker at all. if anything, it might have affected his Q cooldown by 0.1 seconds at most? ON top of that, he now gets a second shield...for free, that activates automatically and has no deficit in his build because the only 3 reliable crit items for him are Infinity Edge, Statikk shiv and phantom dancer

if the 10% is really that important, he can switch to statik shiv and get it back and gain more damage in the process

  1. win-rates composed of averages can only show so much information, ban-rates on the other hand can show what is currently overpowered or has been good enough for too long. I went to league of graphs for information and lolytics is pretty much the same. I can't even tell if champion.gg uses correct data when it says that yasuo only has a 12% ban rate overall...

  2. or it shows that despite the meta changing, it's not enough of an influence to his power to be a deterrent to playing him. a win-rate difference of 2% and a quarter of his players left... Yet he still maintains the second highest ban-rate in the game and the highest average ban-rate when you use every division... We can assume causes for this and can speculate, but one fact remains unchanged. He is the most hated champion in the game and he is consistently powerful

my main issue with him is wind-wall. it holds too much influence. if something were to be changed after that, it would probably be his shield but that's mainly a numbers issue

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

phantom dancer barely leaves him weaker at all. if anything, it might have affected his Q cooldown by 0.1 seconds at most? ON top of that, he now gets a second shield...for free, that activates automatically and has no deficit in his build because the only 3 reliable crit items for him are Infinity Edge, Statikk shiv and phantom dancer

if the 10% is really that important, he can switch to statik shiv and get it back and gain more damage in the process

  1. win-rates composed of averages can only show so much information, ban-rates on the other hand can show what is currently overpowered or has been good enough for too long. I went to league of graphs for information and lolytics is pretty much the same. I can't even tell if champion.gg uses correct data when it says that yasuo only has a 12% ban rate overall...

  2. or it shows that despite the meta changing, it's not enough of an influence to his power to be a deterrent to playing him. a win-rate difference of 2% and a quarter of his players left... Yet he still maintains the second highest ban-rate in the game and the highest average ban-rate when you use every division... We can assume causes for this and can speculate, but one fact remains unchanged. He is the most hated champion in the game and he is consistently powerful

my main issue with him is wind-wall. it holds too much influence. if something were to be changed after that, it would probably be his shield but that's mainly a numbers issue

  1. That's the point. It apparently makes so much of a difference that people are foregoing the shield in exchange for the damage from Shiv, but are still under-performing.

  2. Completely false. All a ban rate can show is that people don't like to play against a champion, or don't like have them on their team. It says nothing at all about them being overpowered unless it's in conjunction with high performance when they're not banned.

  3. He is one of the most loved champions in the game, actually. Hence how he can still maintain a high player base even despite extremely poor performance for a champion with such a high ban rate, and why he gets skins so often. People like Yasuo. It's just that it's far more common for people to voice complaints rather than contentment. Obviously they're not going around making, "I like playing Yasuo and don't actually have anything to discuss," threads.

In fact, I'm a big fan of Yasuo. Have been since his teaser story. But even from the start I knew his W didn't belong on an offense champion. There's no reason for it.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KyImElhe,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-20T01:12:37.087+0000)

Well, wanna know the difference?

He's not relevant in 3 different roles.

He's under-performing in 3 different roles.

And Ezreal is under performing in one role. And we gut him?

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KyImElhe,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-20T02:44:32.021+0000)

And Ezreal is under performing in one role. And we gut him?

He's not being gutted. He's being made to once again have to think about what he's building instead of having one build that works no matter the enemy's comp.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KyImElhe,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-20T05:02:00.163+0000)

He's not being gutted. He's being made to once again have to think about what he's building instead of having one build that works no matter the enemy's comp.

48-49% win rate on a easy to play champion.

Mr Bob Boberson1 votes

He's actually had a decent winrate in bot lane for a very long time and the only reason he's under-performing in mid and top is because of his high pick rate and high ban rate His mains actually have a rather high winrate

And yes I would like if they removed double crit, Or changed his W, Peferably remove double crit I think the complaints would lessen and I'd like to actually have a more diverse build Than the same items every single time

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

He's actually had a decent winrate in bot lane for a very long time and the only reason he's under-performing in mid and top is because of his high pick rate and high ban rate His mains actually have a rather high winrate

And yes I would like if they removed double crit, Or changed his W, Peferably remove double crit I think the complaints would lessen and I'd like to actually have a more diverse build Than the same items every single time

He's underperforming at bot now though. He was only doing well at bot back when any fighter could do well at bot.

Mr Bob Boberson1 votes

I don't really see the issue with that He's not even supposed to be in bot lane I'm fine with him going there to an extent, But it makes sense his winrate wouldn't be insane

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

I don't really see the issue with that He's not even supposed to be in bot lane I'm fine with him going there to an extent, But it makes sense his winrate wouldn't be insane

Um. Exactly?

My point was that his win rate is poor in both positions he's intended for as well as at bot lane. It's only an issue when the champion is actually performing well in multiple roles. Not when they'be being played in multiple roles specifically because they can't do well in any.

Mr Bob Boberson1 votes

Please re-read my reasoning as to why he is underperforming Also he had the highest winrate botlane for a long time

Also statistics aren't everything

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Please re-read my reasoning as to why he is underperforming Also he had the highest winrate botlane for a long time

Also statistics aren't everything

Having a high pick and ban rate doesn't result in poor performance. That means that even people who are Yasuo mains are getting banned out of playing him, and when they do play him still can't get the use out of him that they're supposed to be able to.

He had a decent win rate bot lane, not the highest at bot. Unless you're saying bot was his best, though even when that waqs true he still wasn't #1 at bot. So even at his best at bot, he wasn't the best at bot. And that was a year ago.

Statistics are what we can use reliably. Neither my personal opinion nor your personal opinion have any bearing on the facts. Which is why I choose to leave my opinion out of the discussion. I could go on and on lying about how balanced Yasuo's W is and how people think his kit is perfect, but that would be a meaningless waste of time for me and anyone who reads it. What I can do, though, is have a discussion using the available facts and speculation from them.

Statistics literally are everything. Even if they were to have a champion popularity poll to find out where he sits, that'd be a statistic we can use. It'd be helpful, actually, in trying to find out how his skins still sell well enough to warrant making them so often despite him not even being within the top 10 for performance on mains.

Mr Bob Boberson1 votes

Jesus you sure don't like to listen Remember how Akali always had a low winrate but still got gutted because she was still overpowered? And I checked it nearly every day and he had the highest winrate bot for awhile and no that wasn't even close to a year ago, it was sometime after the 8.11 changes and it stayed like that for some time, and is now currently at 52% But "Under-performing" I guess

Also how would a high pick rate and ban rate not result in poor performance? More people play him meaning more people with little experience meaning they more often do badly, and a high ban rate meaning the good players can't play him It's almost like a lot of high skill ceiling characters will do badly because a lot of unskilled people will play them And it's not like his mains have a high winrate of 54 to nearly 56% or anything which is a point you've been ignoring

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Jesus you sure don't like to listen Remember how Akali always had a low winrate but still got gutted because she was still overpowered? And I checked it nearly every day and he had the highest winrate bot for awhile and no that wasn't even close to a year ago, it was sometime after the 8.11 changes and it stayed like that for some time, and is now currently at 52% But "Under-performing" I guess

Also how would a high pick rate and ban rate not result in poor performance? More people play him meaning more people with little experience meaning they more often do badly, and a high ban rate meaning the good players can't play him It's almost like a lot of high skill ceiling characters will do badly because a lot of unskilled people will play them And it's not like his mains have a high winrate of 54 to nearly 56% or anything which is a point you've been ignoring

  1. You don't know what overpowered means. The word you're looking for is annoying, not overpowered.

  2. You're a flat out liar and can't back up the claim you checked every day.

  3. And sure if you want to ignore literally every other site has him properly at 48-49% because you're only looking at lolalytics, then you can pretend the stat agrees with you.

  4. A high pick AND ban rate means that those who are getting to play him are likely to be people who want to play him because they like him, not people who'd pick him because he performs well-- which are the people who normally drag a champ's performance down.

  5. And most importantly, 54% to 56% is not high for 200+ games on a high skill floor champion. With a difficult champion and that many games, the payoff should be much higher. But it isn't. Because he is weak.

He may have one very annoying ability, but plenty of champions can ignore both it and his mobility easily.

Vulkus I1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KyImElhe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-20T01:06:27.777+0000)

And yet we continue to let yasuo be relevant in 3 roles and no one bats an eye.

What the fuck are you talking about, literally everyone bitches about him.

Jamaree2 votes

People only want build and role diversity up until the point it becomes meta.

People are fine with it when it niche only semi viable, but the moment it starts pushing out others from their role while still being good at their original, people are quick as fuck to flip and say how bullshit it is that this champion can do everything “better” then other champions.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

People only want build and role diversity up until the point it becomes meta.

People are fine with it when it niche only semi viable, but the moment it starts pushing out others from their role while still being good at their original, people are quick as fuck to flip and say how bullshit it is that this champion can do everything “better” then other champions.

That's my point. Champions should not be that versatile. If that's going to be the case, then really what's the point of having different characters? Just make a game with 1 character that will one-hit anything, and everyone has to pick them. There need to be downsides to picking a character in the wrong position.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

People only want build and role diversity up until the point it becomes meta.

People are fine with it when it niche only semi viable, but the moment it starts pushing out others from their role while still being good at their original, people are quick as fuck to flip and say how bullshit it is that this champion can do everything “better” then other champions.

This isnt actually true i think. Everyone wants diversity outside their lane, but when diversity comes they hate it. Its like an all-white gated neighborhood always complaining about the lack of diversity, then trying to get the all-black family who just moved in to leave.

Malix Farwin2 votes

Position/build diversity is fine when it is done correctly and healthy. If changing your build path gives similar WR(which already happens now with quite a few champs) and gives you options to build based off enemy comp it is generally a good thing. When it skyrockets a champ's WR to absurd levels then its bad but, because there are instances where it is bad does not mean there are none that is good.

Similar to build paths come role diversity but diversity cannot go 1 way. The problem with last season is bot lane did in fact open up a lot of options and for pretty much everyone but ADC it was great. The problem was that nothing was really opened up for ADCs, you still had the majority of ADCs stuck in bot lane and they got no diversity. So if you played ADC(or tanks but tanks have other issues entirely) you weren't having fun but if you played pretty much anything else it was a great patch

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KyImElhe,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-20T17:30:18.942+0000)

Position/build diversity is fine when it is done correctly and healthy. If changing your build path gives similar WR(which already happens now with quite a few champs) and gives you options to build based off enemy comp it is generally a good thing. When it skyrockets a champ's WR to absurd levels then its bad but, because there are instances where it is bad does not mean there are none that is good.

Similar to build paths come role diversity but diversity cannot go 1 way. The problem with last season is bot lane did in fact open up a lot of options and for pretty much everyone but ADC it was great. The problem was that nothing was really opened up for ADCs, you still had the majority of ADCs stuck in bot lane and they got no diversity. So if you played ADC(or tanks but tanks have other issues entirely) you weren't having fun but if you played pretty much anything else it was a great patch

when it is done correctly and healthy

Since it's literally impossible to refute the phrase, "it's fine when it's good," instead I'll ask you to provide some examples of when it's been good-- instead of, as you and I both said, one build just being too much better than another for the other to be viable.

But even then, it's not true to say that it's fair for a champion to be able to build whatever they want and still perform adequately with no change in play style. That's what we get when Jax is too strong.

If one champion can build anything and play any role, then they aren't fit for a game where characters are designed to do one or two roles well.

DrCyanide1 votes

There are supposed to be downsides to lacking knowledge of positions, or intentionally playing as if you lack that knowledge.

The downside of lacking knowledge of positions is that you're less familiar with the matchups, particularly the laning strengths or weaknesses of the champions who normally play that position. If you play all the roles enough that you already know those strengths and weaknesses, then picking an off meta champion turns what would be a weakness into an advantage (assuming the other person only plays one role).

It's a matter of playing the game vs playing the lane.

The same goes for items. You should not be able to perform well if you're building as if you don't know which stat your champion scales.

You must hate every Corki build in existence.

Simply put, there need to be consequences for playing the game poorly. You shouldn't be able to rely on a champion or certain build in a way that lets it completely overcome the downsides of picking the wrong champion for the position or picking the wrong items for the champion.

You've described two opposite things in this statement. You're complaining about people playing the game poorly not facing the consequences, while describing people who figure out ways to play the game exceptionally by not following the rules set by following the meta.

If you tried to break the meta, you'd realize that there are always trade offs for it. What you lack is experience in the matchup to know the weak points of that off meta build.

The Ecdysiast1 votes
  1. So, you think that it's fine for a champion to be so overpowered that a player who plays a role 1/5th as much as their opponent should still have a 50/50 shot? Think about that. That's exactly why it's a problem. A champion should not be strong enough to overcome lack of experience.

  2. I can't tell whether or not you're trolling with the Corki thing. I have more faith in you than to think you'd misconstrue, "building as if you don't know which stat your champion scales," as, "duo scaling doesn't exist."

  3. You have an incredible lack of understanding of what the meta is. It's not a strict, unchanging game state. Things that are off-meta don't become meta-- the game is changed in some way, allowing the new thing to be meta. (For a clear example, Magus Ezreal was not a thing. It never became a thing. It didn't "become" meta to bring Magus mid on Ezreal. What happened was Magus was replaced by Runeglaive, which had different stats and different strengths and as a result allowed Ezreal to have unreasonably high performance in a role he wasn't supposed to) Or, conversely, other options may get nerfed, making it seem like something is better when it's remained unchanged. Such as Grasp performing better on Gangplank after Klepto was nerfed for him. Grasp itself wasn't changed, but the better option was nerfed.

Where we seem to disagree is that you think exploiting game changes in an unintended way is a positive, while I don't. And my stance is in line with Riot's goals. Yours is not. You might think it's fine when Ekko, Fizz, or Viktor build mostly defense but can still perform just as well as if they were building as intended, but I and Riot wouldn't agree with that.

DrCyanide2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KyImElhe,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-03-20T19:43:28.600+0000)

  1. So, you think that it's fine for a champion to be so overpowered that a player who plays a role 1/5th as much as their opponent should still have a 50/50 shot? Think about that. That's exactly why it's a problem. A champion should not be strong enough to overcome lack of experience.

There's something called the Law of Diminishing Returns. Yeah, you've got 5x the experience of someone in that lane, but how much did you improve over those 5x games in ways that are specific to that lane? Probably not much, because unless your lane is Jungle knowledge from the other lanes caries over pretty decently.

A champion shouldn't be strong enough to overcome a lack of experience on that champion.

  1. I can't tell whether or not you're trolling with the Corki thing. I have more faith in you than to think you'd misconstrue, "building as if you don't know which stat your champion scales," as, "duo scaling doesn't exist."

And I have faith that you're not complaining about people building AP Zed, which leads me to conclude you're complaining about duo scaling builds on champions with duo scaling, of which Corki and Ezreal are prime examples.

  1. You have an incredible lack of understanding of what the meta is. It's not a strict, unchanging game state. Things that are off-meta don't become meta-- the game is changed in some way, allowing the new thing to be meta. (For a clear example, Magus Ezreal was not a thing. It never became a thing. It didn't "become" meta to bring Magus mid on Ezreal. What happened was Magus was replaced by Runeglaive, which had different stats and different strengths and as a result allowed Ezreal to have unreasonably high performance in a role he wasn't supposed to) Or, conversely, other options may get nerfed, making it seem like something is better when it's remained unchanged. Such as Grasp performing better on Gangplank after Klepto was nerfed for him. Grasp itself wasn't changed, but the better option was nerfed.

Yes and no. While Runeglaive made AP Ezreal Mid easier, it wasn't the only way to run AP Ezreal Mid. I'd been having success with AP Ez months before Runeglaive by rushing Sheen (which gave AP back then) and taking runes that gave a carefully balanced mix of AP, CDR, and Mana Regen - the same stats Runeglaive provided. The general build still worked before, it was just took less time/effort/skill to pull off after the item.

Where we seem to disagree is that you think exploiting game changes in an unintended way is a positive, while I don't. And my stance is in line with Riot's goals. Yours is not. You might think it's fine when Ekko, Fizz, or Viktor build mostly defense but can still perform just as well as if they were building as intended, but I and Riot wouldn't agree with that.

Riot disagrees with you here too. What Riot has tried to maintain is that if Ekko, Fizz, Viktor, whoever else decides to build X, they have drawback Y. Whenever these off meta builds get wide spread attention in a short amount of time it's usually because they lack sufficient drawbacks.

Where we really disagree is you think it should entirely disappear, while I think if it's problematic then changes should be made to bring it back in line, not kill it all together.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Evidently, my point is right on the money and the tear change is going through anyway. So you can come and be completely wrong all you want, doesn't change the reality of the situation.

And you saying

Riot disagrees with you here too. What Riot has tried to maintain is that if Ekko, Fizz, Viktor, whoever else decides to build X, they have drawback Y. Whenever these off meta builds get wide spread attention in a short amount of time it's usually because they lack sufficient drawbacks.

Is a flat out lie. That is EXACTLY what I said, and you're now trying to go back on your own word by pretending it was your stance at first.

DrCyanide1 votes

Your stance came off as a "there's zero room to change a build/role ever and if people do it should be nerfed into the ground." That's a very different stance from "if a build lacks enough drawbacks then it needs to be nerfed."

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Your stance came off as a "there's zero room to change a build/role ever and if people do it should be nerfed into the ground." That's a very different stance from "if a build lacks enough drawbacks then it needs to be nerfed."

Neither of those is correct.

As they're doing now, such things should be removed specifically to avoid unfairly nerfing the items of other champions who are supposed to build them. Yeah, nerfing both Manamune and Archangel's Staff would also do the trick to stop Ezreal from being so powerful with both... but they wouldn't do something so stupid since it would adversely effect champions who properly build only one or the other.

If, despite my explanation in the original post that either AP or AD Ezreal is fine, you misconstrued my message, that's on you. I can't help where you ignored my words.

Crede7771 votes

With the champion roster size what it is, I think it is fine if each champion only has 1 or 2 viable builds/positions.

I proposed a malzahar change a while back and people were like "no, this would kill AD Malz!" Uh... ok?

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

With the champion roster size what it is, I think it is fine if each champion only has 1 or 2 viable builds/positions.

I proposed a malzahar change a while back and people were like "no, this would kill AD Malz!" Uh... ok?

Exactly. This game is designed around champions doing one or two positions efficiently. If they can do more than that, then they don't follow one of the key aspects of the game.

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