Can Sona finally get a character specific buff?

only zhule·Feb 2, 2016·12 votes·2,373 views

So been playing Sona a lot, and i just can't help but feel that she is still just to weak compared to the rest of the league roster. I will admit she does interact well with some items (or any spell blade type item), but not really any more then other characters can. Without items like that she really doesn't put out all that much personal damage, and her team buffs are not all that impressive until you look at them effecting the whole team at once.

Rambling aside, there are 3 aspects i would love to see Sona get some love put towards.

Can we please allow the damage bonus she gives, to work against structures? As it stands Sona is very bad to siege-ing turrets. She personally does piss poor damage, unless you have her power cord up, and attacks VERY slowly. It would just be nice if she had a little bit more power to clear out buildings before she builds a spellblade item and a ton of AP.
Can her E please either last longer, or have a shorter cooldown. Sona is one of, if not THE most fragile characters in the game. To make matters worse she lacks a basic slow or stun/root in her kit (outside of her powercord E), is in the lowest base movement speed group, and lacks a blink/dash gap closer. These leaves her in a position where almost the entire League roster can simply run her down and she can't do anything about it. With the long base cooldown and the minimal bonus it gives, the skill suffers from both being a late game skill point dump (because you have nothing else to sped them on) and even then feeling completely lackluster. As a player it feels very bad to have to have 3 points into a skill, plus the bonuses from my ultimate, plus tier 2 boots, PLUS 1 or 2 movement speed bonus items, PLUS max CDR all so i can keep pace with another champion who has a built in escape tool they can use as often or more often then me despite having half as much CDR.
Can we please make Sona able to take a hit better? I don't mean make her a tank level of hard to kill, but just something more then where she currently stands, where getting caught/stunned once is basically death (usually even if you flash away at first chance). Given that she is still bound to one offensive spell and one defensive spell (that really once works well with a lot of AP and while tagging your whole team), Both of which are one reasonably long cooldowns, is it really so much to ask that she be able to take 1-2 auto attacks without losing 40-60% of her health.

45 Comments

MavenSongFeb 2, 20168 votes

Honestly small buffs like the hymn of valor aura affecting turrets would be a good start, as it encourages you to make use of auras, and encourages teamplay as sona thrives in teamfights (which is the only real way of making use of the auras).

For the longest time I thought it did. Then I noticed the particles it gave didnt go away when I basiced a turret. Honestly it dosnt make sense why it doesnt.

Pika310Feb 2, 20167 votes

While I agree with what you're saying, please stop calling them "auras." They are not auras anymore, they're Actives now. With the patch 4.13 gutting, they no longer meet half of the criteria that defines what an "aura" is in gaming definition.

MavenSongFeb 3, 20164 votes

Fair enough. They give a buff to anyone who walks in it for a moment, which I can agree doesnt really categorize as an aura. Though im not sure if E reapplies or not.

Pika310Feb 2, 20167 votes

Agreed. If I may, I'd like to add onto what you've already said with the additional:

The secondary active of Hymn of Valor is EXTREMELY restricted in the way it procs, only on basic attacks and nothing else. This was a huge nerf from pre-4.13 which assisted allies' spells in addition to basic attacks. It would be highly beneficial for this to return and have Hymn's secondary active proc off of spell hits, of course with reduced damage on AoE abilities.
Rito and Fearless specifically have stated multiple times that Celerity is severely underwhelming and they claimed they were seeking buffs to it. Well, there have been countless player suggestions such as giving the spell Swiftness or Tenacity and of course a lower CD like you mentioned. Also, increasing her base MS to match Nami's would go a long way in closing the gap between these IDENTICAL champions. When it was nerfed from 330 down to 325, EVERYONE was confused. Literally everyone, even Sona haters started to realize Rito is blatantly discriminating against her. For a character without CC on her basic abilities and a severe lack of decent mobility, it's unheard of for her to sit in the lowest tier of MS despite these.
Durability has always been a concern regarding Sona. She's the 2nd-squishiest support after Zyra and in the Top 5 squishiest champions in the entire game. Whereas before patch 4.13 she was a smidge higher on these lists, probably 3rd and Top 10 if I had to guess off-hand. Now in spite of this, she's the ONLY champion amongst the ELEVEN squishiest in the entire game that lacks a stun/snare on her basic abilities, with the sole exception of Ezreal who has a blink. Now Sona could definitely go a long way with just a little more inherent durability to make up for this(somewhere around +30 HP at level 1), but this isn't the only issue she has with taking a hit. The nerfs to Aria of Perseverance has made it amongst the weakest spells in the entire game, its heal is absurdly low and the shield is unbelievably weak and impossibly short in duration. The entire spell AS A WHOLE is outclassed by literally EVERY other heal and shield amongst the entire support class which ALL OF THEM also have additional effects while Sona's is THE ONLY ONE that lacks a bonus ability, whilst also boasting the most severe mana cost. For this spell to become usable, it needs multiple buffs across ALL of its numbers: CD; mana cost; bases; scalings; duration.

Related issues:

I. All of the issues both you and I have discussed are directly hindered by the spell range nerfs made to Sona's actives. Whereas before 4.13 they all boasted a reasonable 1k-unit range, all 3 were reduced to MELEE range as part of the gutting she received. SONA AS SHE CURRENTLY STANDS IS A MELEE CHAMPION. She's the ONLY "mage" support in the entire game that has melee-range abilities, no other mage support in the game has less than 500-units on ANY ability. While it's entirely reasonable to return them back to 1k-units, I feel the majority of Sona players would settle for AT LEAST 650-units and no less, only slightly below the 700-unit range on Hymn's primary active.

II. In direct relation to the 2nd and 3rd issues: Aria and Celerity, Sona is the ONLY "mainstream" support character that completely lacks CC on the basic kit other than just a slow. Even her slow is somewhat inaccessible as it's attached to her passive which requires: A) she has 3 charges stored up to use it; B) Song of Celerity is off cooldown or her most recently-used spell and; C) she be within 550-units to basic attack her target. Now I'm not saying she needs to be overloaded with CC and turned into "The 2nd Coming of Thresh" and at the same time a simple stun wouldn't make up for her immobility and squishiness anyways, as many other champions have this AND stronger spells to boot, notably Nami and Bard in particular. However, until she gets some decent CC added to her kit, she'll always be nothing more than a 'ball of stats' type of champion.

III. You mentioned how Sona's individual damage output is severely unremarkable and underwhelming AT BEST. I don't exaggerate when I say her potential is outclassed by literally EVERY support that isn't Braum. I cringe every single time I see a sheep claim that her damage output is anything more than complete garbage, she factually lacks both the bases AND scalings to do a meaningful amount, it only becomes mediocre if she gets fed and builds MULTIPLE fake artificial scalings. The problem is, a support champion shouldn't be OBLIGATED to build artificial damage just to not be completely useless to their team and this was in fact the case BEFORE her damage was GUTTED in patch 4.13. Why was she not obligated to do so before, but she is now? BECAUSE PATCH 4.13 MADE HER UNPLAYABLE. It's inherently self-proving evidence, anyone that isn't weighed down by sheeple herd mentality can see this FACT. She needs damage buffs to be able to once again function and stop relying on non-support items, but this doesn't necessarily mean it return to its full pre-4.13 potential. There is in fact room to INSTEAD move some of her missing damage into team buffs or debuffs rather:

III (a). In regards to Hymn of Valor's primary active, that room I mentioned doesn't exist. Its primary active is tied for the lowest base damage on a spell in the entire support class. At the same time, Sona is one of only THREE "mainstream" support champions that only has ONE damage spell. A revert to its base damage is overdue, this just isn't debatable.

III (b). Staccato has received multiple UNJUSTIFIABLE nerfs and Rito hasn't even so much as PRETENDED that Sona was EVER compensated for these nerfs. Now while it's definitely in severe need of having some of its own damage returned, at the same time it has opportunity to continue on Power Chord's theme of debuffing an enemy champion as is seen by Tempo and Diminuendo. If it were to apply a debuff to her targeted enemy making them receive more damage from your allies for a duration, Staccato itself needn't have its own bonus FULLY reverted, but would still require at least a partial revert to say maybe 70% give or take.

IV. Crescendo is outdated and suffers from several shadow nerfs that were made to it in 4.13. As it currently stands, its effect is outclassed by the majority of Support ults, despite simultaneously having a shorter range, smaller hitbox and longer CD than most. Meanwhile it still suffers from having a noticeably long channel time AND travel time, yes it counts as a projectile :( It's overdue for several QoL buffs.

Artum TsumiaFeb 2, 20167 votes

Very good points Pika310, Sona certainly needs some much needed attention for these reasons. I still pick her now and then myself but I usually feel terrible about it. In any game where I do get significantly fed (or have an incompetent ADC I'm trying to make up for) and build damage items to make myself useful, I end up feeling that literally any other mage would have been a better pick. I could have played Lissandra support. Sona is also a huge liability early game with her low health, lack of CC and short range putting her in range of relatively easy retaliation and subject to getting burst hard, particularly with the prevalence of Thunderlords these days.

She seems like probably one of the least viable supports for a while now, Riot must be focusing hard on Taric (who is actually in a moderately decent state).

Pika310Feb 2, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Artum Tsumia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kxi9YxPh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-02-02T10:36:45.393+0000)

She seems like probably one of the least viable supports for a while now, Riot must be focusing hard on Taric (who is actually in a moderately decent state).

I wish focus on Taric were only the problem, but as a matter-of-fact Rito just outright refuses to admit she's amongst the weakest supports in the game. Worse yet, several Ritoers have had the AUDACITY of claiming the complete opposite and in the case of Meddler even threatened to make MORE nerfs to her.

Over these past 19+ months, there have been countless a thread demanding buffs, a revert or another rework. For bout the first 3 months after 4.13 went Live despite unanimous disapproval and outrage, Fearless was willing to make a post on the random thread or 2, making false claims of follow-up buffs and his VERY LAST post ever made was telling us "Sona would not be forgotten." Since then she's received nothing, but ADDITIONAL nerfs and Rito's attitude regarding her has been growing increasingly hostile each time they say her name.

Fearless' final post: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2n8M8JVj-riot-fearless-what-was-sona-made-for

Jag propagandizing Sona's state: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/3NL0vjdZ-the-pbe-has-been-down-for-2-and-a-half-weeks-first-update-is-a-nerf-to-sona

Jag then later on created a blatantly Sona-hating rant in the News Announcements where he attacked her in a severe manner. I don't want to go through the effort of trying to find it, but I do remember I had to stop reading it after only 2 paragraphs because of how sheer hateful it was.

Repertoir propagandizing Sona: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fGrvfPlA-riotrepertoir-thank-you-for-being-active-but-do-you-have-a-moment-for-sona

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/BKpArcZr-riot-can-we-add-depth-to-sona

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/YfqXUJKM-as-a-support-main-can-we-buff-sona

...and of course Meddler verbally attacking Sona players and trying to openly lie to the community: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/i4mbjszh-meddler-state-of-sona

Artum TsumiaFeb 2, 20166 votes

Sona's winrates are most certainly not sky high, it's hovering basically 51% ±1% over the past month and is pretty consistent across all tiers of play. To be fair, this is slightly higher than some supports but mostly just leaves her sitting in the middle of the pack. It's also important to note that her pick rate is less than 10%, with more popular supports being picked 30%+ more often. Pick rate is actually fairly important when it comes to winrate because low pick rates tends to imply that the people picking them are more familiar with the champion (matchups, teamcomps, mechanics, etc).

That out of the way, this topic got me thinking about Sona's problems, and a lot of her problems come from the weight that Riot gives to her "Best usage", that is to say buffing 4 to 5 members of your team. The weight given to this situation means that power is taken away from individual uses thus lowering the satisfaction of any single use except in tight team fight situations. This is also further impacted by the nature of the game and the poor way that she scales into late game. Early game she is in a constant situation where she can only buff one other person and by the time the game has progressed enough for team fights to be common, her time has mostly passed.

Sona already has a number of items in her kit that could be used to balance this out. The passive on her ult being a big one. Currently however it gives far too little late game which is actually the point when it should be giving her the biggest benefits. The next clear thing is the 'snuggle' zones, if these actually worked as close range auras, it would be one thing, but it operates as a 'tagging' mechanic and any team member tagged simply gives her an extra 0.5 seconds to tag an other (or in the case of Celerity also extends the duration of her own MS buff). The whole tagging system could be overhauled to refresh/stack for each ally tagged thus making Sona's positioning more important and satisfying if she can say refresh the frontlines shields a few times or give her adc multiple stacks of on hit bonus damage.

Sona might not need a complete rework or anything, and the snuggle zones are more interesting from a gameplay perspective but Riot does need to take a look at her intended niche and make a few changes to her kit to make the usage of all skills more interesting.

Pika310Feb 3, 20162 votes

Yes, you seem to have a firm grasp on her current problems and issues. Regarding the concept of her activated effects 'refreshing' themselves on allies in range. I have to wonder how they would go about doing this. It can't just re-proc instantly for the duration of the effect, this could lead to almost five full seconds of your entire team hitting for 100 extra damage on every auto or infinite shields until the timer runs out.

Now, it sounds like you're suggesting her actives be changed back into auras and they reapply their current effects no more than once every few seconds after the ally using up the effect. While I question "Why not just do a full revert to her original auras?" I have to admit that your idea would work just as well anyways and if it does actually seem "more interesting" from before, then so be it. Assuming I'm understanding you correctly.

Artum TsumiaFeb 3, 20161 votes

The mechanics of it can go all different ways, but considering how you can only tag someone with a buff once presently, adding a mechanic that refreshed everyone who had already been tagged when you buff someone else would be one solution. Proper positioning could result in a high number of refreshes on the desired target while poor positioning could refresh the buffs too soon, losing out on potential. An instant 5 man buff would be good for a second, but would get no refreshes.

Pika310Feb 8, 20161 votes

Also, that seems too complex. ex. 1: "Okay, this activation I initially tagged W, X and Z. Y wasn't in range, so now I can tag him after and it'll refresh for the other three." ex. 2: "Only Z was in range, now I can freely tag W, X and Y in addition to Z one after the other."

I'd think something like a refresh timer would be the better application of this idea. Champs like Rek'Sai and Udyr have a visible countdown that indicates when they last tagged a unit and when they'll be able to tag that same champion again. I think the same could be used for Sona, but have the countdown begin when the buff is consumed or wears off rather than when they're tagged.

Like I said, this is a viable concept for returning her permanent auras that were imperative to her identity and viability, while maintaining the current "more interesting" effects she has now. Although the concept of what makes something interesting is completely relative.

SummersteethFeb 2, 20164 votes

I must be missing something here. Is the problem that Sona feels weak to you? Because as of this post, you have a really solid 64% win rate on her over 42 games. I know win rates can be misleading, but I'm not sure what in your personal experience would justify asking for 3 buffs.

I think Sona interacts significantly better with Lichbane than other champions, especially support champions. I can't imagine justifying building Lichbane on Soraka or Braum or Leona. You could maybe build it on supports like Bard, Taric, or Nami, but if you want to build Lichbane on a support, Sona really gets the most out of it.

As for your specific buff requests, they all would be nice, but they seem like things Riot would never do. For #1, Sona is a great teamfight champion. She functions well in lane using her auras to buff 2 (or 3 during a gank) champions, so when your team groups as 5 her auras are that much stronger. If Sona is the teamfighting support, why would she also be the sieging support? Riot has pretty clearly been trending towards specific strategic niches for champions.

For #2, I don't remember where I read it, but some Rioter mentioned that they prefer to buff strengths instead of nerfing weaknesses. Yes, Sona has low base movement speed, and she isn't tanky, and her E is underwhelming when used just for her. Those are weaknesses that fit with her role in the game. Sona's auras scale with the number of teammates she can use them on, which means she wants to be with a lot of her teammates. If she gets caught alone, she should probably die, and that's okay.

3 sort of follows with #2. Assuming you are 100% correct and Sona needs to be buffed, Riot would likely increase the strength of her auras, especially the benefits to teammates, or buff her ultimate. I would be extremely surprised if Riot decided to do anything that would makes Sona stronger without teammates around, but I guess it's possible. Maybe a +5 movement speed buff, like Garen's -5.

Now, I'm not on Riot's balance team, so it's possible they'll read your post and think that these are some great ideas. From my personal experience following balance changes, however, I think that's unlikely. It seems much more likely that if you suggest the types of buffs that Riot has been giving to other champions, Riot will consider them. I also think you should take some time and consider why Sona needs buffs. You say you feel that she is weak, but then you talk about how good Lichbane is on her and how her auras are good when applied to the whole team. That's not a very solid justification for buffs, and if there is no real reason to buff Sona, then Riot won't even get to look at what kinds of buffs you want.

It's also possible that you have correctly identified a problem (Sona feels weak), but offered a bad solution (strength buffs). Sona seems to be in a pretty solid place, so if she still feels weak, maybe she needs some QoL buffs to make her feel more rewarding to play. This could mean anything from better visuals and louder sounds on her abilities to a rework that trades her strong early game for stronger mid to late game auras.

only zhuleFeb 2, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I must be missing something here. Is the problem that Sona feels weak to you? Because as of this post, you have a really solid 64% win rate on her over 42 games. I know win rates can be misleading, but I'm not sure what in your personal experience would justify asking for 3 buffs.

I think Sona interacts significantly better with Lichbane than other champions, especially support champions. I can't imagine justifying building Lichbane on Soraka or Braum or Leona. You could maybe build it on supports like Bard, Taric, or Nami, but if you want to build Lichbane on a support, Sona really gets the most out of it.

As for your specific buff requests, they all would be nice, but they seem like things Riot would never do. For #1, Sona is a great teamfight champion. She functions well in lane using her auras to buff 2 (or 3 during a gank) champions, so when your team groups as 5 her auras are that much stronger. If Sona is the teamfighting support, why would she also be the sieging support? Riot has pretty clearly been trending towards specific strategic niches for champions.

For #2, I don't remember where I read it, but some Rioter mentioned that they prefer to buff strengths instead of nerfing weaknesses. Yes, Sona has low base movement speed, and she isn't tanky, and her E is underwhelming when used just for her. Those are weaknesses that fit with her role in the game. Sona's auras scale with the number of teammates she can use them on, which means she wants to be with a lot of her teammates. If she gets caught alone, she should probably die, and that's okay.

3 sort of follows with #2. Assuming you are 100% correct and Sona needs to be buffed, Riot would likely increase the strength of her auras, especially the benefits to teammates, or buff her ultimate. I would be extremely surprised if Riot decided to do anything that would makes Sona stronger without teammates around, but I guess it's possible. Maybe a +5 movement speed buff, like Garen's -5.

Now, I'm not on Riot's balance team, so it's possible they'll read your post and think that these are some great ideas. From my personal experience following balance changes, however, I think that's unlikely. It seems much more likely that if you suggest the types of buffs that Riot has been giving to other champions, Riot will consider them. I also think you should take some time and consider why Sona needs buffs. You say you feel that she is weak, but then you talk about how good Lichbane is on her and how her auras are good when applied to the whole team. That's not a very solid justification for buffs, and if there is no real reason to buff Sona, then Riot won't even get to look at what kinds of buffs you want.

It's also possible that you have correctly identified a problem (Sona feels weak), but offered a bad solution (strength buffs). Sona seems to be in a pretty solid place, so if she still feels weak, maybe she needs some QoL buffs to make her feel more rewarding to play. This could mean anything from better visuals and louder sounds on her abilities to a rework that trades her strong early game for stronger mid to late game auras.

I think that the siege aspect isn't really all that much bonus, in that Sona already chunks through towers pretty if she manages to max out on CDR and has good mana regen + Lich Bane. It just feels kind of lacking/ unexplained that her aura can't be used against structures.

I feel that the teammate argument works for her Q where the bonus damage for her alone isn't all that impressive, but a full 5 man damage boost is quite impressive. It also works for her W where the shield numbers are fairly low but if you tag everyone the numbers and ratio is insanely high. That said i don't feel like the same can be said about her E. I'm much less likely to count a full team boost as the skill ACTUALLY giving 9 seconds of buff. With 5 times what ever the current % of movement speed. Also the point behind the buff is less "i went wandering alone and got caught" and more based around "wow this enemy champion has managed to chase from bottom turret to base turret all while slowly chunking me to death.... God it would be nice if their gap closer and/or stun wasn't on the same or better cooldown then my movement speed buff"

I think that a small buff to Sona's E is long over due. The power level of her Q and W are fine.

QuephaFeb 2, 20164 votes

Sona's winrate is still sky high, there is no reason to justify a buff to her.

Blac IycFeb 2, 20163 votes

Sona item 3040 item 3089 item 3158 item 3100 item 3174 item 3285 [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Pika310Feb 2, 20169 votes

Three of those are NOT support items and a support should NOT be OBLIGATED to buy them solely to not be a COMPLETE hindrance to their own team. Secondly, a support shouldn't feel the necessity of building TWO mana items. Lastly and most importantly, IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A SIGHTSTONE, YOUR TEAM WILL REPORT YOU.

Your comment inherently states what is currently WRONG with Sona as a champion and WHY she is just outright UNPLAYABLE.

MiraweaveFeb 2, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Three of those are NOT support items and a support should NOT be OBLIGATED to buy them solely to not be a COMPLETE hindrance to their own team. Secondly, a support shouldn't feel the necessity of building TWO mana items. Lastly and most importantly, IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A SIGHTSTONE, YOUR TEAM WILL REPORT YOU.

Your comment inherently states what is currently WRONG with Sona as a champion and WHY she is just outright UNPLAYABLE.

Sona isn't a support in that sense. Her kit doesn't really offer anything without items. She needs stats to scale, and is incredibly strong when she gets them. Build ap items, let your kit do the work. If you want to be useful with zero gold and build only utility items, don't play sona.

Pika310Feb 2, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Sona isn't a support in that sense. Her kit doesn't really offer anything without items. She needs stats to scale, and is incredibly strong when she gets them. Build ap items, let your kit do the work. If you want to be useful with zero gold and build only utility items, don't play sona.

How do you not see the inherent problem with that mislogic? Sona is a support champion. Supports are supposed to be early game champions that can function on a low gold income and with minimal items. Thus, Sona is unplayable as a support champion.

As for scaling, Sona is actually one of the WORST scaling champions in the game, even by support standards. About 90% of her presence does NOT come from herself, but factually artificial numbers faked by Spellblade and Echo. These are not support items, a support should NOT be obligated to buy them solely to NOT be a HINDRANCE to your own team. Especially considering a support's income does NOT justify buying expensive items just to NOT be USELESS.

I could literally use the exact same logic and buy Lich Bane and Luden's Echo ANY other mage, like for example either Nami or Bard who both matter-of-fact DO FUNCTION without items and both SCALE BETTER with them than Sona does. Every champion in the game has a stronger early game than Sona AND every champion scales with Lich/Echo BETTER than Sona. Fact of the matter is that Sona has no place in this game anymore, she's completely unplayable.

MiraweaveFeb 2, 20164 votes

I mean if by "completely unplayable" you mean "above average in this meta with a solid winrate" then sure.

Sona's my go-to support because if you've got any idea what you're doing you should be able to win lane for free with her. As long as you actually exploit her amazing earlygame, you'll be able to pick up the AP you need.

Seriously. She's very strong right now. The best items synergize very well with her and the speed of the game is right where she wants it to be.

Pika310Feb 2, 20168 votes

If you have to fall back on winrates as an excuse for the fact you don't have an argument, you've inherently already admitted that you've been proven wrong. Rito themselves have stated on countless occasions that winrates DO NOT show champion strength. They have repeatedly nerfed champions that were already below 45% winrate, such as Yas and LB.

Winrates are a number created by a collection of countless other factors, which sadly are used by the herd as a crutch to blatantly ignore said factors which leads to severe misconceptions and a complete lack of individual thought and common sense.

MiraweaveFeb 2, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Pika310Feb 2, 20166 votes

{quoted}

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/NJ72rEpB-4k-sona-games-master-tiers-perspective-of-53-sona

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/nVF6Es62-so-when-can-the-community-stop-kidding-itself-and-admit-sona-was-way-way-overnerfed

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4887033&page=5

Blac IycFeb 2, 20161 votes

Annie

SaltyKrackaFeb 3, 20163 votes

You've already noted Lich Bane and its synergy with Sona's kit. And according to both Riot and statistics, Sona isn't exactly in need of a buff.

So, since you want to get Sona away from Lich Bane and more towards her basic kit, would you accept these buffs if they came with, say, nerfs to her Q's base damage/AP ratio?

Pika310Feb 3, 20164 votes

So you're just openly ignoring the fact that Hymn of Valor is tied for the LOWEST BASE DAMAGE on a support spell IN THE ENTIRE GAME. No other spell amongst ALL OF SUPPORT champs has less than 40 base damage. Hymn of Valor and Taric's Shatter & Dazzle; these are the ONLY 3 support spells with 40 base damage, no other support champ is this low or lower, these are the actual rock bottom. Sona herself has the 2nd-lowest damage potential of ALL support champions, Braum is the only support with lower damage output. Even Taric despite being tied with her for the lowest bases has SLIGHTLY higher potential than Sona due to the fact he has TWO damage spells to her ONE.

Sona is forced to use Lich Bane as a crutch because her damage is too low. She needs damage buffs, NOT NERFS to stop the Lich Bane trend. How do we know this? Because her damage potential pre-4.13 was higher than current and players rarely ever built Lich Bane on her. She didn't need Lich Bane because her numbers and kit were already usable, as of currently they are not. She's only obligated to rely on fake numbers BECAUSE HER OWN NUMBERS ARE UNUSABLE.

SaltyKrackaFeb 3, 20163 votes

Mmm, yes yes, shouty shouty.

Now let's see if I can't pick out some actual points from the gibberish.

"The base damage on Sona's Q is low!"

And it hits two targets, plus whatever bonus damage her empowered autoattack does. Next.

"Sona has the second lowest damage potential of all supports!"

Huh, that's funny. Either you're entirely wrong about this, or potential matters much much less than reliability. After all, she's sitting pretty at 6/25 in terms of average damage dealt in plat+ games this patch.

"Lich Bane is a crutch for Sona's damage"

So? It serves the same purpose for other champions, and I don't see you crying about their lack of damage.

"But but but the FAAAAAKE NUUUUUUMBERS!!!1potato"

All numbers are numbers. If perhaps you mean numbers intrinsic to her kit as opposed to an item that is core on her, I could see that, and if you could build a coherent argument around that point I could perhaps take you seriously.

Regardless, if you want Sona to stop buying Lich Bane, the changes would have to be to Sona. For instance, if you really wanted Q to have more base damage, would you accept a doubled CD?

only zhuleFeb 4, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Mmm, yes yes, shouty shouty.

Now let's see if I can't pick out some actual points from the gibberish.

"The base damage on Sona's Q is low!"

And it hits two targets, plus whatever bonus damage her empowered autoattack does. Next.

"Sona has the second lowest damage potential of all supports!"

Huh, that's funny. Either you're entirely wrong about this, or potential matters much much less than reliability. After all, she's sitting pretty at 6/25 in terms of average damage dealt in plat+ games this patch.

"Lich Bane is a crutch for Sona's damage"

So? It serves the same purpose for other champions, and I don't see you crying about their lack of damage.

"But but but the FAAAAAKE NUUUUUUMBERS!!!1potato"

All numbers are numbers. If perhaps you mean numbers intrinsic to her kit as opposed to an item that is core on her, I could see that, and if you could build a coherent argument around that point I could perhaps take you seriously.

Regardless, if you want Sona to stop buying Lich Bane, the changes would have to be to Sona. For instance, if you really wanted Q to have more base damage, would you accept a doubled CD?

So going to address the points you bring up and try to show you the concept of why they are issues that people bring up.

"Sona's Q has low base damage":

Yes it does hit two players, so the max amount of damage isn't all that bad, but for single targets 40 damage per level is really really piss poor. Even when you add the empowered auto attack it isn't all that impressive 80 magic damage at level 1, 130 magic damage at level 3, 180 magic damage at level 5.... maxing out at 310 magic damage at level 16 with max ranks in Q and her ultimate. If you add the 2nd target she is outputting about 510 magic damage per cast (310 to first target + 200 to secondary). While this sounds impressive also remember that it is her ONLY offensive basic spell. Imagine if you would Sona doing that level of damage BUT she doesn't have access to Lich Bane/ Frost Queen's Claim item line/ or Echo, so basically all the items that provide an additional damage boost to her spell.

"Sona has the second lowest damage potential of all supports":

This one is a bit unclear. She has a very low damage potential BUT it's very reliable. Basically if you put Sona up against any other support and had both constantly hit 80% or more of their spells, each having used the same number. Sona's damage would likely look laughably poor.

"Lich bane is a crutch for Sona's damage":

I think a good way to explain this one would be to look at other champions who use spell blade effects. For sake of argument lets use Irelia with item 3078 (or basically any champion that constantly uses Triforce). How many of those champions do you think would still see play if that item was removed from the game and/or it stopped working as it currently does for them? Given the known information about Sona, how do you think she would feel/play if she could no longer use that item for a damage boost? Do you think she would still be viable with just her Q?

You ask would we be willing to take having the cooldown be double for her Q, if it meant a base damage bonus. This is in interesting question. How much of a bonus? Because given that she lacks offensive options without that spell, and her support skills in lane are very underwhelming, i would be expecting something like a 3-5 times multiplier on the base damage to justify a 16 second base cooldown.

SaltyKrackaFeb 4, 20161 votes

Well at least we're having a discussion.

"What if Sona didn't have access to all the items that boost her damage?"

What if Tanks didn't have access to items that give armor? What if Infinity Edge and Essence Reaver were removed from the game?

...Basically, these hypotheticals aren't of any use of all. If you're removing an item that champions can and do use, you're going to have to balance those champions around the fact that they no longer have access to that item. Even more so if said item is core on more than one champion. See: DFG and the great Lich Bane nerf.

"Reliability vs Potential"

Sure, if every spell and auto hits. Given that she seems to be doing pretty well statistically, I'm going to go ahead and say that reliability trumps potential.

"Cooldown vs base damage on Q"

Just FYI, I wouldn't overthink the numbers. I'm not a champion designer and I don't know how their numbers work. Most of that bit had more to do with hypothetically deliberately tearing down Sona's synergy with Lich Bane in exchange for other buffs than anything.

only zhuleFeb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well at least we're having a discussion.

"What if Sona didn't have access to all the items that boost her damage?"

What if Tanks didn't have access to items that give armor? What if Infinity Edge and Essence Reaver were removed from the game?

...Basically, these hypotheticals aren't of any use of all. If you're removing an item that champions can and do use, you're going to have to balance those champions around the fact that they no longer have access to that item. Even more so if said item is core on more than one champion. See: DFG and the great Lich Bane nerf.

"Reliability vs Potential"

Sure, if every spell and auto hits. Given that she seems to be doing pretty well statistically, I'm going to go ahead and say that reliability trumps potential.

"Cooldown vs base damage on Q"

Just FYI, I wouldn't overthink the numbers. I'm not a champion designer and I don't know how their numbers work. Most of that bit had more to do with hypothetically deliberately tearing down Sona's synergy with Lich Bane in exchange for other buffs than anything.

Lich Bane kind of keeps coming back as the issue. well more the way that it interacts so well with Sona. Honestly i think the easiest way to fix that would be to simply buff the damage from her Q bolts BUT remove the auto attack aspect. Even in the late game you will rarely see a Sona burning her heal and movement speed buff simply so she can have her passive proc when she next casts Q. To the same idea you would likely see a dip in her damage output if a large chunk of her damage (even without passive) wasn't tied to a follow up auto attack.

all that said i could be wrong, and this very well could just be an issue where an item meant to help a certain sub set of characters just so happens to be insanely good for a character it wasn't meant for. Stuff like rune glaive Ezreal

In the end i didn't ask for a over all damage boost to her Q, simply curious why other champions are allowed to use their empowered attacks against structures and Sona is limited.

I honestly believe that Sona still has enough room to get a buff to her E, without putting her over the top power wise.

only zhuleFeb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You've already noted Lich Bane and its synergy with Sona's kit. And according to both Riot and statistics, Sona isn't exactly in need of a buff.

So, since you want to get Sona away from Lich Bane and more towards her basic kit, would you accept these buffs if they came with, say, nerfs to her Q's base damage/AP ratio?

This depends. If all we are talking about is a small boost to her base movement and a mild decrease in the base cooldown for her E, then no i would not be willing to take a hit in regards to her damage. If however we are talking a full power shift from her personal damage to her aura bonuses, then i would think this is fair.

I think that statistics point out that Sona's damage and heal are roughly on middle ground power wise. But everyone who has played the champion (hell even the Riot staff) will tell you that Sona's E is just underwhelming through the entire game. In addition with the push towards faster games, it is becoming harder and harder to get enough levels to start putting the points into the skill. I have yet to see or hear any situation where a player would want to level that skill up before the others, so you are really looking at a skill that does start actively getting better until the game has passed the half hour mark.

SaltyKrackaFeb 4, 20161 votes

Kind of raises the question of just how powerful Sona's auras and other abilities are if she's getting by on basically two-three spells (counting her Ult, which Riot most certainly does) for the majority of games.

And if they really did want to buff her E, they'd almost certainly have to pull that power from somewhere else in her kit.

Pika310Feb 25, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kxi9YxPh,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-02-02T07:37:17.774+0000)

Without items like that she really doesn't put out all that much personal damage, and her team buffs are not all that impressive until you look at them effecting the whole team at once.

Thing is all 3 Activated Effects are melee range spells now. With only 350-units range apiece, she's the only mage support in the game with melee range spells. Considering that your whole team has to bunch up together super close and risk all 5 of you getting AoE'd, the numbers don't justify it. They also don't justify walking around tagging people one at a time either, not that their duration allows for this either. She truly encompassed the very nature of a super high-risk, low reward champion and this was a direct cause of Gutting 4.13. They wanted to giver her "counterplay," but she already had that. They wanted to give her more "defined moments of power," but rather than increasing her potential power to compensate, they removed power. A lot of power. From her whole kit. They wanted to remove "invisible power," but nothing could be more invisible than a complete lack of power and players have noted the new visuals did nothing to improve clarity regardless, especially regarding Power Chord they actually INCREASED invisibility.

To make matters worse, to this very day Rito is unwilling to admit their mistake and would rather brush her under the rug rather than fire Fearless from their company and start working towards fixing Sona's playability.

Miku Hime samaMar 17, 20162 votes

Worse than just brushing her under the rug, Meddler has even threatened Sona players directly. Trying to coerce our silence with the intimidation of additional nerfs to her. Problem is, she's already so weak and unplayable that she's become immune to nerfs. By that I mean her performance can't actually get any worse than it is right now without literally doing something absurd. Cause let's face it, hitting her with 25 nerfs in a single patch was already an absurdity in itself.

Nerf her damage? She already has the lowest base of supports, she can't do anything without artificial numbers.
Nerf her healing? She's already the worst healer in the game.
Nerf her mobility? She already has the lowest MS and one of the weakest MS spells.
Nerf her CC? She already has the least of all supports.
Nerf her range? HALF OF HER DAMNED KIT IS ALREADY MELEE!!!

Nerfs literally can't make her weaker than she already is. She's the weakest support in the game, nerfing Sona is synonymous to beating a dead horse in the most literal sense of the phrase.

ErockandrollFeb 3, 20162 votes

I would like to chime in Since Sona was the first champion I have picked up. since I started back in late season 3.

As some one who chimed in with the discussions about said reworked. I'm going to honestly say that the rework made her better. And I don't think they where even that far off the mark. (not to the point of needing another rework.)

I don't really think it's a matter of actual balance, as it would be just feeling good to use. Cause, like people have said, her win rate appears to be good, but has a low pick rate. Now why would that be? His her win rate not represent the average because only the die hards are playing her? I know I can make use of her kit in the current meta.

I guess the other question I should ask is what Sona should, and should not be able to do? Even after the rework, Their was a point where people were calling her blaitenly broken. And even now, I imagine that people would cringe if Sona completes a full AP build. Yet people seem like they want to crank up her Auras, to level 11. As that is kinda her identity. So I should ask, if Buffing her Auras would put her over the edge, Would we be willing to sacrifice damage for it?

I'm kinda also being conservative about her current state of balance. As I recall, the difference between the "Nerf Sona" and "Save Sona" QQ, was 5 MS and 10% AP on her Q's Aura. Some odd patches ago. And yet, most everything in the preseason benefited her. FQC got a huge buff. And Windspeakers works extremely well, on a champion who can potentially shield her entire team, on a really low CD.

only zhuleFeb 3, 20162 votes

i would say its a combination of the bonuses to FQC (before they gutted 50% mana regen because mid mages were taking it), and just the blanket bonus MP5 regen that most casters got near the end of last season.

I think her first 2 abilities are fine, they do enough to warrant their place and when leveled / when she has a fair amount of AP, they function very well. That said her E just feels bad through the entire game. It's not enough to close the gap when chasing an opponent; it's rarely enough to out run a champion chasing you; and the movement speed debuff is almost never strong enough to help secure a kill/ secure an escape.

Even with her going a full AP damage build you are still often looking at Sona needing a bonus 5-15% movement speed from items + multiple uses of her movement speed ability + some form of strong active slow to keep pace with enemy champions. The reverse holds true as well, you can't escape for enemies until you have a bunch of passive movement speed bonuses from items, a fair amount of AP and CDR, and often popping FQC or tagging the opponent with Q + item 3116 . Sona doesn't need to be impossible to catch, but she does need the ability to react to being caught slightly out of position that isn't flash/ her ultimate/ having spent 10K gold on times already.

XIII VanitasFeb 4, 20162 votes

They need to slightly tone down her scalings and give her more base damage and utility.

only zhuleFeb 4, 20163 votes

{quoted}

They need to slightly tone down her scalings and give her more base damage and utility.

I'm curious how they would tone it down? Her stat scaling is pretty standard, and her ratios are all pretty low (since they can all effect up to 5 targets). I seriously worry that a reduction in her Q bolts would make her near unplayable, a 60% ratio isn't all that high and without a second offensive spell lowing it more put her even more in a position where she can't defend her self.

Her healing is still not all that cost effective for the lane phase, so how much more utility would she need to bring to make up for a lose in personal damage output?

Pika310Feb 6, 20163 votes

Not saying it's a good idea to lower her AP ratios, but support champs aren't supposed to have strong scalings anyways. While Sona is probably the most desperate champ in the game for massive pure buffs without tradeoffs, I for one would not complain if they did a full revert back to pre-4.13, but lowered her AP ratios and fired Fearless from their company. Hell, I might actually start buying RP again.

only zhuleFeb 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Not saying it's a good idea to lower her AP ratios, but support champs aren't supposed to have strong scalings anyways. While Sona is probably the most desperate champ in the game for massive pure buffs without tradeoffs, I for one would not complain if they did a full revert back to pre-4.13, but lowered her AP ratios and fired Fearless from their company. Hell, I might actually start buying RP again.

I don't think 60% ap scaling is all that strong personally. You usually see champions with 70% or more ap scaling or two damage abilities each with 50% or more scaling.

Pika310Feb 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kxi9YxPh,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-06T18:19:20.983+0000)

I don't think 60% ap scaling is all that strong personally. You usually see champions with 70% or more ap scaling or two damage abilities each with 50% or more scaling.

Agreed and when you look at other mage supports you start to notice Sona's are on the lower end of the spectrum, as a direct product from her nerfs in 3.14. However she's not a mid-laner, she shouldn't be stacking max AP items on a Deatchap is the point I'm making. Which is the main problem we're sitting at right now, a support champion that lacks the utility, bases or AP scalings to function properly and has to resort to artificial numbers just to not be a complete hindrance to their own team.

Many people have said, if Rito had just used 3.14 to create a new support-scaling stat, we wouldn't have to be discussing AP in the type of manner we are now. The problem of actual mages like Annie and Morgana taking over the support role wouldn't have been nearly as prevalent. Mid-lane FQC would've never happened. All of this could've been avoided.

SaltyKrackaFeb 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

While Sona is probably the most desperate champ in the game for massive pure buffs without tradeoffs

http://i.imgur.com/rv0SYgG.jpg

AWildAPKalistaMar 19, 20162 votes

It has nothing to do with Sona's interaction with artificial numbers like Lich Bane, she doesn't benefit from the item any more than nearly any other support in the game. If anything, it's actually weaker on Sona than most other champs because of her low Base AD. Tied with Soraka for 3rd-lowest amongst support champs, the only 2 who get less damage from the Spellblade line are Lulu and Thresh. Except both of them having higher AP scalings than Sona, so they certainly don't mind the 80 AP either in spite of it being sub-par.

Hell let's not forget that pre-4.13 Sona synergized better with Lich Bane than she does now, but she rarely bought it back then despite being able to use the item better than she can now. So why is that? Because she didn't have to pre-4.13, she had actual usable base numbers and utility. She's resorted to desperately clinging to artificial numbers now only because she as a champion does not work anymore. After over 30 nerfs since 4.13, her bases, scalings and utility are all practically non-existent now. Her winrate without Spellblade/Echo has fallen below 40% globablly and below 35% in diamond+.

She has the lowest REAL winrate of any champ in the game. She has the lowest pickrate of any "support" in competitive play. Every number on her kit is either worst or 2nd-worst either in-class or in-game. Sona is not a playable character as-is.

Athenes LuluFeb 2, 20161 votes

How about... more effective auras in general?

Such as longer-lasting, actually noticeable (not just 0.5 seconds that hardly anyone notices), and the like, instead of making Sona more of a "number focused" support? (such as heal a lot, dish out damage a lot, very little CC)

Pika310Feb 3, 20162 votes

That's only half of the issue. Returning her auras would definitely go a long ways towards making her playable again, but without usable numbers she still remains unusable. Let's say for example Hymn said "Allied champions deal 0.01% more damage." That isn't going to do jank for her, it may as well say the spell doesn't do anything at all, similar to how she currently stands.

It's not like she has any CC or real utility on her kit. Until that changes, she can't be anything other than a ball of stats champion.

Athenes LuluFeb 3, 20161 votes

Speaking of auras, they are either super OP or super useless in general, which was why a "rework" was necessary so she isn't a "pick to win" and would have more interaction involved (we all know it didn't turn out too well). Wonder why Aegis was nerfed a couple of times, and that Runic Bulwark was removed? ~~Or we can also go on with the FH nerfs, how Abysssal Scepter is deemed OP, and how many times Janna's passive was nerfed as well~~

The problem right now is more on her identity issues, and her heavy need for AP items. With her current kit, just plain ol' nerfs on her numbers would either turn her super OP or UP. Hardly anyone gives a flying shit about her "interactive smaller auras"; they're more concerned about her burst and ability to heal. If Riot is going to keep her as the "aura" support, then very careful tuning is necessary, and that the power of interacting with such auras should be more obvious and noticeable so players can be rewarded for "playing right", instead of just blindly mashing buttons to heal/poke as quickly as possible.

Sona in general is just in a really awkward spot (if an actual support needs to build AP to stay useful isn't awkward enough ON A SUPPORT, who barely has 2/3 of a carry's income...). If she is seriously going to need changes so she is in a "better spot", then an "identity buff" or even another rework is necessary.

Pika310Feb 3, 20162 votes

A lot of that logic though is nothing less than propaganda, very little of it actually holds real weight other than excuses Rito creates to control their herd of sheeple.

Auras are balancable, Sona was balancable. Before Gutting 4.13 went Live, her viability was perfectly fine if only slightly undertuned. Pre-3.14 she was perfectly balanced and sat comfortable as a champ with both noticeable strengths AND weaknesses. She didn't need a "rework," that was just an excuse Fearless fabricated to justify his deep-seated hatred for Sona. Locket hasn't received nerfs because it was strong, it was nerfed because Rito has started a bigoted crusade against auras.

Runic Bulwark was removed from the game because it gave both Armor AND MR, it was 100% build item that worked in literally EVERY situation. Their was no decision-making that went into buying Bulwark, the correct answer for your team was always "YES." I played in Season 3, I know as well as anyone else how every game started with your team discussing who would be designated to build Bulwark first-item every game. This essentially meant the item had a greater than 200% build rate as there'd always be at least 2 in every game, 1 for each team. THIS IN NO WAY WAS RELATED TO IT BEING AN AURA.

It's not that Sona is obligated to build AP, her own AP scalings are actual garbage and she benefits from it almost none at all. The issue is that she is obligated to build ARTIFICIAL damage in the form of Spellblade/Echo. It just so happens that both of these grant an ADDITIONAL AP scaling and both grant AP which inherently grants self-scaling for MORE artificial scaling. The thing about Lich Bane is that at only 80AP, it's an INFERIOR AP item that is built near exclusively by champions that lack usable bases and scalings of their own. This is true for Sona and the ONLY reason she's obligated to not only buy non-support items to not be useless, but INFERIOR non-support items at that. She doesn't have utility, so she uses damage as a crutch. She doesn't have usable damage bases/scalings, so she uses artificial numbers as a crutch.

On the other hand, her numbers and scalings pre-4.13 were A LOT higher than they are currently and she synergized with Spellblade/DFG better than she does now. So then why is it that she didn't start building Lich Bane/Echo until after? Because her kit was SUFFICIENTLY USABLE before patch 4.13 gutted her. Her current kit DOES NOT WORK and that is why she had to start using ARTIFICIAL numbers to cover up the fact that she's become an unplayable champion. This is directly reflected in her winrates in games where she does NOT use artificial damage like Lich/Echo. In games where she doesn't have Spellblade or Luden's Echo, her winrate is factually below 40%. Sona is a support, these are NOT support items, she should NOT be obligated to build non-support items, but she doesn't work without them. Sona as a support DOES NOT WORK.

As a damage dealer? She's actually inferior to every other mage in the entire game, this fact is only being masked by artificial numbers.