@Stashu. About thE PBE changes to Cassio

Kowe The Ewok·Dec 1, 2014·9 votes·1,370 views

I dare say we're still far from a point were old Cassiopeia mains are ready to sign the treaty. Even with the PBE changes there's a lot to be critized.

It is not about numbers, but about how the gameplay change effected her. It lacks sasisfaction and fun for many people. There have to be more changes to her core.

Q is even less valuable on his own!
Too heavy focus on E.
Ult and W still feel "unimpressive" and overnerfed.
Maxing W and Q COMBINED is far from viable (= No build path diversity)
Passive seems to add nothing for big periods of time

40 Comments

yellowbricksDec 1, 20145 votes

2--No cass wasn't unique. The Q poke play style was something shared by all the above champs I mentioned and then some. Sure Xerath might so it in a straight line, Ziggs use a bouncing bomb while Syndra like Cass used a targeted circle of damage to hit their opponents. This wasn't unique and trying to pass it off as if it was is willfull stupidity. New Cass is truly unique. No other AP champ has the scaling of cass, nor the ability to put out constant damage like cass. It still needs some tweeking but it truly is something unique in this game.

I love how you just mention Q poke, because that's her entire kit, right? Talk about willful stupidity. What about her area denial Miasma (when it actually hurt)? It expands, grants vision, and slows. She had her twin fang too, which was unique, a spammable almost auto attack on a mage, and here's the thing: Both styles were viable. Her poison wasn't simply a setup for her one damage move, it was a powerful attack on its own, which could be further punished if the enemy was too close. That was unique. Having more than one viable style is getting more and more unique these days with riot stomping out anything other than one play style per champ.

I'll give you one thing though, new Cass certainly is unique. No other champ has such a horribly designed, unfun, unfitting passive that completely destroys the point of the champ. New Cass is a confusing blend of wanting to be a pseudo ADC mage with a half ass Veigar mechanic, and poison which does hardly anything at all.

Hyrum GraffDec 1, 20144 votes

Honestly, I think Stashu knows this. I think the 4.21 PBE changes are like, "We know we're not there yet, but we also know that you guys are tired of sitting around with Cass in her current state, so here's something so she'll feel stronger and hopefully a little more of a poison mage, and so we'll have a new starting point to have discussion about her from."

GorszDec 1, 20145 votes

Riot Games are basically Washington D.C politicians.

The real reason cass got gutted was because of scripters. Instead of Riot acknowledging the cheating going on and doing something about it they rather gut your favorite champion to put scripting "under the rug".

Cass was obvious because her twin fangs would shoot out of her back.

Hyrum GraffDec 1, 20143 votes

Riot Games are basically Washington D.C politicians.

I don't believe that.

Relevant.

GorszDec 1, 20145 votes

Lying to suit their own ends and deceiving their base.

They may not have the same impact as politicians, in fact no where near it, but they can still lie the same exact way.

Nothing makes sense at all with their "reasoning" for gutting Cass. In fact... the Rioter stashu didnt even have a Red Riot name when he first made the post about the Cass rework.

Stashu is just some fall guy. Which is... once again... a tactic politicians use.

NarasimhaDec 1, 20141 votes

Look at it this way. What do they have to gain? Nothing. They literally don't gain anything from 'lying'. I suppose you could argue they want to feast on the player's tears and sorrows, but lets try and stay rational. And if they have no reason to lie, why lie at all? Again, you could argue that they're pathological liers, but going by that you may as well build your own tin foil hat and hide under your bed.

A Slime AppearsDec 2, 20141 votes

No reason to lie? So lying for profit is a thing that never happens? How naive can you be? Is this your first time interacting with anything outside of your house?

NarasimhaDec 2, 20141 votes

HOW are they profiting here?

MartyrofsandDec 1, 20142 votes

Riot Games are basically Washington D.C politicians.

The real reason cass got gutted was because of scripters. Instead of Riot acknowledging the cheating going on and doing something about it they rather gut your favorite champion to put scripting "under the rug".

Cass was obvious because her twin fangs would shoot out of her back.

The issue with this is now scripters would be even stronger with the new cass as they would almost always get 6 twin fangs in per Q with does so much more damage than old cass at all stages of the game it isn't funny.

Take off your tin foil hat already there is no big conspiracy.

As for the issue of satisfaction with Cassio I'm not seeing it. I played old cass with the Q poke play style and I loved it, and initially fought against this rework rather fiercely. The thing is though learning the new play style is both unique for an AP in this game as well as rewarding from a mastery perspective as well, gonna be honest its a lot harder than the old Q poke play style ever was.

Cassio is something unique for APs now. If you want the old Q poke play style it still exists, its called Syndra/Ziggs/Xerath/etc, there are several champs that use that play style to fit your wants, go play them and let Cassio actually be unique.

GorszDec 1, 20146 votes

I saw "tin foil hat" then just 100% ignored the entire post.

Anyone who says shit like that is an idiot. Yes nobody ever lies to you. Ever. Especially a business who is about making money.

By the way.. the definition of conspiracy is two people agreeing to lie to atleast one person and the two people benefit.

Theres a million "conspiracys" a fucking day if you go by the definition.

PS. Cass was already unique you moron.

MartyrofsandDec 1, 20142 votes

1--So let me get this straight. You honestly believe riot wanted to stop scripters from using Cassio by making Cassio even better when played optimally, something that a scripter would do consistently? And you are calling me a moron.

2--No cass wasn't unique. The Q poke play style was something shared by all the above champs I mentioned and then some. Sure Xerath might so it in a straight line, Ziggs use a bouncing bomb while Syndra like Cass used a targeted circle of damage to hit their opponents. This wasn't unique and trying to pass it off as if it was is willfull stupidity. New Cass is truly unique. No other AP champ has the scaling of cass, nor the ability to put out constant damage like cass. It still needs some tweeking but it truly is something unique in this game.

GorszDec 1, 20147 votes

Um.. they didn't make cass better.

They gutted all her ratios to add around 7% damage to E and thats AFTER she get full stacks.

Theres already been plenty of math done on Cass.

Cass was unique u idiot. Ok, no champion is unique if any of them have poke, gotcha. Lmao.. ur focusing on one single ability and you're just calling it "poke" as an excuse for saying cass isnt unique. Name one champion with long range poke that applied poison damage. Ill wait.....

You're a fool.

P.S Cass's pick rate AND win rate dropped like a rock, so it seems Riot was successful.

MartyrofsandDec 1, 20143 votes

Except the math you are following only took direct ratios into account and not the fact that Cassio can now get 6 Es per Q which amounts to about 200 more damage than old Cass that could only get 3. Again you are willfully ignoring facts to cherry pick only what you think supports your "riot nerfed her cuz scripters" BS even though these changes make her better FOR scripters.

For the "Cass was unique" crap no she wasn't. Just because her damage was over time and not a straight up burst doesn't suddenly make her unique. She played much like Syndra/Xerath/Ziggs, hell even Orianna with the poke them away from minions until you can all in and kill them. It doesn't matter if its DoT based or if someone calls almight zeus from the skies to cast a lightning bolt nuke upon their foes it is still the same "harass till weak go nuts" play style that we have seen so many times now.

Cass' new style is truly unique to an AP carry and while it isn't perfect by any means it is not the unholy abomination that deserves to call for stashu's head like so many of you want to make it out to be.

yellowbricksDec 2, 20146 votes

Except the math you are following only took direct ratios into account and not the fact that Cassio can now get 6 Es per Q which amounts to about 200 more damage than old Cass that could only get 3. Again you are willfully ignoring facts to cherry pick only what you think supports your "riot nerfed her cuz scripters" BS even though these changes make her better FOR scripters.

For the "Cass was unique" crap no she wasn't. Just because her damage was over time and not a straight up burst doesn't suddenly make her unique. She played much like Syndra/Xerath/Ziggs, hell even Orianna with the poke them away from minions until you can all in and kill them. It doesn't matter if its DoT based or if someone calls almight zeus from the skies to cast a lightning bolt nuke upon their foes it is still the same "harass till weak go nuts" play style that we have seen so many times now.

Cass' new style is truly unique to an AP carry and while it isn't perfect by any means it is not the unholy abomination that deserves to call for stashu's head like so many of you want to make it out to be.

Repeating the same argument in different words is not going to magically make it true. You are still just focusing on singular skills in her kit rather than how they work together while I'm telling you her kit as a whole had uniqueness to it, as well as her variable skill order. Used to be her q or e could be maxed first depending on the situation. Now she's shoe horned into e first because her slightly dirty water attack (q) does such negligible damage that if you max it first, you will actually heal enemy champs with your attacks.

Her kit was unique before in the way it all worked together. Now it's just drip some dirty water in them and hope they're dumb enough to be close enough for you to actually do damage with your one strong skill. But don't forget to build your stacks! Gotta work your ass off just to get to the point most other champs get to upon buying their first big ticket item. 30% AP on the passive means shit all when your AP ratios were slashed in the same deal. That's the most disgusting part of this rework, it makes you spend the entire game farming to get to the point you were before the rework.

GorszDec 2, 20147 votes

Yea... and having to kill minions while poisoned is just incredibly awkward.

I used to use spells on champions and auto attacks to last hit in laning phase. Now I have to spam my spells on minions... ok.

MartyrofsandDec 2, 20141 votes

Actually no I am not talking about a single skill I am talking about a play style. The sit back and harass from range until the opponent is low and then all them for an easy skill play style. Q poke Cass did it, syndra does it, nid did it, Jayce does it, Xerath does it, Ziggs does it, Orianna does it, Cait does it, etc etc. So many champions in this game play this way and there is nothing unique about it. It doesn't matter if you are shooting arcane energy, piltover peacemakers, dark spheres, bombs or whatever the play style is still very similar and far from unique. Trying to scream "cass different cuz poisons" is willfull ignorance.

Cass now doesn't play like any other champ in the game. People try to say she is an AP ADC but the problem is while she kites in similar fashion no ADC comboes spells anything like Cassio, and no APC can have a never ending damage rotation like Cassio. As she is now her play style is truly unique and stand alone, in the past it was not, aside for perhaps those that did the E max.

Champion SkinDec 2, 20143 votes

2--No cass wasn't unique. The Q poke play style was something shared by all the above champs I mentioned and then some. Sure Xerath might so it in a straight line, Ziggs use a bouncing bomb while Syndra like Cass used a targeted circle of damage to hit their opponents. This wasn't unique and trying to pass it off as if it was is willfull stupidity. New Cass is truly unique. No other AP champ has the scaling of cass, nor the ability to put out constant damage like cass. It still needs some tweeking but it truly is something unique in this game.

Ryze and Swain and Kayle would disagree that no AP Champion has the ability to put out constant damage like Cass Kayle deals insane sustained/constant damage with her E Ryze while being mostly bursty he does deal decent sustained damage And Swain does theoretically deal constant damage through his ult given he has enough mana to sustain it I suppose there is also Teemo he is an AP champion and he can deal constant damage through his poison amplified auto attacks

MartyrofsandDec 2, 20141 votes

Ryze and Swain and Kayle would disagree that no AP Champion has the ability to put out constant damage like Cass Kayle deals insane sustained/constant damage with her E Ryze while being mostly bursty he does deal decent sustained damage And Swain does theoretically deal constant damage through his ult given he has enough mana to sustain it I suppose there is also Teemo he is an AP champion and he can deal constant damage through his poison amplified auto attacks

Kayle would be the poster child of an APC who plays like an ADC. She is AA focused and really uses her abilities to augment her AA damage as oppose to her abilities being her prime source of damage.

Ryze and Swain don't even get close to Cassio's sustained damage right now. Swain's ult damage doesn't even come close to Cassio's E damage, even if you include all 3 targets it's hitting, and Ryze can get about 2 rotations of his kit out before he starts to have CD issues. Against single targets this might be irrelevant but in a team fight those will become an issue and Cassio will again win out due to have zero down time on her damage. Ryze is the closest to being like Cass but frankly even he falls short of how new Cassio plays.

Champion SkinDec 2, 20141 votes

Ryze and Swain don't even get close to Cassio's sustained damage right now. Swain's ult damage doesn't even come close to Cassio's E damage, even if you include all 3 targets it's hitting, and Ryze can get about 2 rotations of his kit out before he starts to have CD issues. Against single targets this might be irrelevant but in a team fight those will become an issue and Cassio will again win out due to have zero down time on her damage. Ryze is the closest to being like Cass but frankly even he falls short of how new Cassio plays.

I didn't say that they dealt good damage I simply said that they dealt constant damage or well close to it anyhow (And you no mention teemo? well I guess nobody wants to talk about ~~teemo~~ Satan)

MartyrofsandDec 2, 20141 votes

The thing is Swains ult is more in line with Anivia's, IE toggle damage dealing ult that constantly drains mana. It doesn't have any kind of interaction or combo of casting like Cassio does. Ryze as I said doesn't last near as long as Cassio does. Yes he can get out about 2 rotations, that good for blowing up 1 maybe 2 targets if they are both squishy, Ryze doesn't have the constant damage to shred a tank like Cassio and then continue to go. This is the biggest difference Cassio's damage isn't gated by CDs she will still be dealing insanely high damage when Swain is running around as a bird waiting for the rest of his kit and Ryze is sucking fumes.

As for teemo, as much as I hate to say it I would put him into the same category as Kayle, IE AA based APC champ who would play more like an ADC than an actual AP champ...I hope your happy you just made me put the beautiful and amazing angle that is Kayle is the same group with the abomination and that is Satan himself, take a bow >.<

Champion SkinDec 2, 20141 votes

The thing is Swains ult is more in line with Anivia's, IE toggle damage dealing ult that constantly drains mana. It doesn't have any kind of interaction or combo of casting like Cassio does. Ryze as I said doesn't last near as long as Cassio does. Yes he can get out about 2 rotations, that good for blowing up 1 maybe 2 targets if they are both squishy, Ryze doesn't have the constant damage to shred a tank like Cassio and then continue to go. This is the biggest difference Cassio's damage isn't gated by CDs she will still be dealing insanely high damage when Swain is running around as a bird waiting for the rest of his kit and Ryze is sucking fumes.

As for teemo, as much as I hate to say it I would put him into the same category as Kayle, IE AA based APC champ who would play more like an ADC than an actual AP champ...I hope your happy you just made me put the beautiful and amazing angle that is Kayle is the same group with the abomination and that is Satan himself, take a bow >.<

The thing is that Cassio is actually gated by cooldowns especially if she wants to or needs to switch targets or the target is mobile or doge her poisons if this happens she can do very little even though she has such insane potential damage

SmokingPuffinDec 1, 20143 votes

The real reason cass got gutted was because of scripters. Instead of Riot acknowledging the cheating going on and doing something about it they rather gut your favorite champion to put scripting "under the rug".

If Riot were interested in breaking Cass scripters, why in the world would they shift more power into E?

Seems more likely they'd nerf the bejeezus out of that button.

GorszDec 1, 20145 votes

Because, E is close range and single target.

Also, thats why they added taht stupid stacking mechanism.. to keep Cass weak. They officially gated Cass's power to where she cannot make much impact until really late game which does target Cass scripters who were dominating early/mid.

SmokingPuffinDec 1, 20142 votes

Because, E is close range and single target.

Always has been. Still is the reason why Cass scripting is done.

Also, thats why they added taht stupid stacking mechanism.. to keep Cass weak. They officially gated Cass's power to where she cannot make much impact until really late game which does target Cass scripters who were dominating early/mid.

Mechanically, Cass passive is aimed at nerfing Cass Q and W in the early game, because that's where her bullying power came from.

Cass E is still straight up buffed even at 0 passive stacks.

GorszDec 1, 20144 votes

Barely buffed combined with heavy nerfs of EVERY one of her other abilities.

Hence she was heavily nerfed, which is also backed up by the fact her pick/win rate dropped like a rock.

TwinFangs Base damage changed to 55 / 80 / 105 / 130 / 155 from 50 / 85 / 120 / 155 / 190. AP scaling changed to (+ 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60% AP) from (+ 55% AP) at all ranks.

HUGE base damage nerfs for .05 ratio buff.... Yeah ok.. And ratio nerfs until you put 5 points into E.

Dont kid yourself buddy. Ive played Cass thousands of games. She has definitely been nerfed. Not to mention the average game ends before Cass could possibly get full stacks.

SmokingPuffinDec 1, 20143 votes

Barely buffed combined with heavy nerfs of EVERY one of her other abilities.

Hence she was heavily nerfed, which is also backed up by the fact her pick/win rate dropped like a rock.

Certainly I agree. Not saying Cass is any good today. I was all excited on rework day and I tried her and oof, it's awful.

However, if you were planning to nerf Cass scripters, this is the worst possible nerf profile you could pick. E is the button that makes scripting Cass good, and they nerfed everything else while buffing that.

GorszDec 1, 20142 votes

Actually, it was the auto aim/hitting of Q in combonation with the E.

And I dont understand how making cass a lot weaker for 90% of the game doesnt hurt scripters. In order to not be super nerfed you need max stacks, which happens at the end of the game.

Sounds perfect to target scripters.

SmokingPuffinDec 1, 20142 votes

Actually, it was the auto aim/hitting of Q.

If Q were the thing, people would be scripting Syndra. Cass scripts are a thing because you can get more Es out than human players can.

And I dont understand how making cass a lot weaker for 90% of the game doesnt hurt scripters. In order to not be super nerfed you need max stacks, which happens at the end of the game.

Sounds perfect to target scripters.

Every nerf obviously makes a champion weaker. The nerf they picked here is exactly backwards for targeting scripters though. Why would you nerf W if you want Cass scripters to hurt?

I'm pretty sure that Cass being awful is entirely an accident of bad tuning. Designers hate it when their stuff comes out UP.

GorszDec 2, 20145 votes

Um.. they do script Syndra..... /facepalm

You do realize theres scripts for every champion right?

No its not... the made cass weaker for 90% of the game. Yes sure "accident" sure.

GorszDec 2, 20145 votes

The point is... it wasnt just a nerf, they reworked her where shes weak as fuck until max stacks which comes at the very end of teh game.

So scripters get to use a crappy champion until 40 minutes in when most games are over? This indeed does target scripters.

Also, people do script with syndra... check youtube sometime, theres scripts usable for every champion.

MartyrofsandDec 1, 20141 votes

Actually, it was the auto aim/hitting of Q in combonation with the E.

And I dont understand how making cass a lot weaker for 90% of the game doesnt hurt scripters. In order to not be super nerfed you need max stacks, which happens at the end of the game.

Sounds perfect to target scripters.

Because scripters will hit 6 Es per Q cast which at level 2 alone does around 200 more damage than old cass who could only get about 3 Es per Q. At every stage of the game the ability to land 6 Es per Q cast out damages old Cassio but hitting 6 Es can be difficult. If you script though its a cake walk and you will destroy anyone who tried to come after you.

New Cass would be a buff to scripters which is why I told you to take off your tin foil hat and join the rest of us in reality.

GorszDec 2, 20144 votes

Im going to report every post that you say "tin foil" hat. I cannot stand that sheeple ass ignorant crap.

Anyways, you're wrong, and cass got her E base dmg nerfed, and her early ratios nerfed.

Ok, you're right they nerfed cass because she was a lane bully, when theres a bunch of lane bullys in the game. Why was the underplayed/balanced champion nerfed for being a lane bully when theres like 20ish lane bullys and none of them got nerfed? Because.... reasons.

Long story short, they severely nerfed Cass until very late game. So scripters are using a severely nerfed Cass for 40 minutes. What is so hard to understand?

5G8Nri0B54Dec 1, 20143 votes

Technically Q and W's late games were nerfed too. As I recall, their ratios were gutted.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 2, 20143 votes

The obvious issue here is that the longer something is around, the more it stagnates.

The fear then is if they're allowed to just sit back and watch long enough, they're going to put Cassiopeia on further down the backburner until she becomes the next Olaf/Yorick where her fix will come soon(tm). And then one day a pro in LCS picks up this train wreck of a rework, do well with her, and many people who aren't even real fans of Cassiopeia will take a liking to the new FOTM they can use to boost their MMR and be even more resistant to Cassiopeia being fixed.

TL;DR - the longer something stays the way it is, the less likely Riot will fix them because. RIP and . Do you also remember how long it took for them to FINALLY rework ?

That and, can't be too sure no? Might as well inundate the forum with debates on Cassiopeia so she remains fresh in their mind for as long as possible because dammnit I will NOT be put through what the Olaf-players have been put through!

5G8Nri0B54Dec 1, 20144 votes

@TC I think I've been trying to get across many of these points for the past month or so.

But it looks like he isn't going to respond to many of the bigger questions that aims at the core of her problem at all. Many of the issues he does address often have to do with balance and numbers nowadays thematics and satisfaction be damned.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 1, 20143 votes

Thank you for making this thread though.

With the inactivity on fixing her lately, I do feel like there needs to be something to jump-start Cassiopeia discussions back up again....or at the very least find a way to get the point across to Stashu.

SaevumDec 1, 20142 votes

Just by reading between lines... she still sux... i presume.

Kowe The EwokDec 1, 20144 votes

Well, while her midgame damage is better (and lategame worse) her complete range is dicatated by E. Unless you follow up your Q with an E it's the most useless damage spell on any midlaner ingame right now. Same for W.

This means that the range on Q and W are essentially worthless.

As a result landing a skillshot (which takes skill from your side) feels horribly unrewarding unless it's followed up by your opponent making a big mistake (running into E range).

Ever since the movement speed on her Q got scrapped to ignorable levels following up with an E depends more on your opponents than yourself.

SaevumDec 1, 20141 votes

Well, while her midgame damage is better (and lategame worse) her complete range is dicatated by E. Unless you follow up your Q with an E it's the most useless damage spell on any midlaner ingame right now. Same for W.

This means that the range on Q and W are essentially worthless.

As a result landing a skillshot (which takes skill from your side) feels horribly unrewarding unless it's followed up by your opponent making a big mistake (running into E range).

Ever since the movement speed on her Q got scrapped to ignorable levels following up with an E depends more on your opponents than yourself.

To sum it up, the path still Rylai's. Thanks for the info.