Veigars E got nerfed because

Guy Fox Teemo·Jul 26, 2015·66 votes·3,467 views

Having an instant AOE stun that can lock down an entire team isn't exactly balanced.

Why haven't we nerfed Annie who can do the exact same thing, except easier and more often?

97 Comments

Davy CrockettJul 26, 201511 votes

But Graves can't have a damn cigar.

I'll find the door.

Reynard the ƒoxJul 26, 201511 votes

Twisted Fate got nerfed because having a powerful stun on a long uptime was oppressive.

Meanwhile Annie can sit on her prepared stun for literally ever.

NarasimhaJul 26, 20156 votes

Assuming this is a serious discussion

Because Annie's stun requires an ultimate, and more often than not Flash as well.
Because Veigar's can stun longer
Because Veigar's can also be used as a zoning tool.
Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, because they perform two very different roles.

Remlap1223Jul 26, 201514 votes

Her stun does not require an ultimate. She can stun off of every ability except her E. You most likely see it with her ultimate because that's how you get the most damage out of it.
Veigar's stun also does zero damage. It also has a 1.25 second channel time. Annie's is instantaneous, and she can proc it many more times due to the reset on her Q.
You really don't think a flaming bear that does burst AOE damage and DOT while auto attacking you is a zoning tool? I'm not even talking about her W right now.
UWOTM8? They fill the exact same roles! They're both burst AP casters that use their stuns as utility in teamfights while doing disgusting amounts of damage to single targets. Only difference is that when Veigar did it he got nerfed, and it took months of Annie support cheesing before she even got tapped. She still is bullshit to this day.

ThryaleJul 26, 20153 votes

to be fair, I think the discussion is about old veigar, not nerfed veigar.

but yeah, honestly, I just wan't veigar's Q to be reverted to point and click. The fact that it is now a skill shot makes him completely unplayable for me.

Dextix LTJul 26, 20157 votes

NO it doesnt. While her range is indeed a bit lower than veigars in the stun department her stun is also instant, veigars isnt, hell, you can even move inside veigars stun circle and still have counterplay.
It is, but it also give more counterplay. It is not instant and it also gives you a freedom to move inside the stun circle.
You wot mate? No seriously. It can be used as a zoning tool. But have you seen annies zoning capabilities? If she has her passive on and farms with aa (really easy to do) she will zone you 24/7 not letting you to get even close to her! Her stun when charged stays there forever until used!

Veigar has zoning capabilities, but they will never reach the level of annies zoning.

No they dont? Both of them are aoe mage nukers. They perfor the same role. However, veigar has a lot more counterplay and actuall skillshots he has to hit.

KeevalroyJul 27, 20156 votes

Veigar was being played as a support for combating cancer and was destroyed because of it. Kalista Gotta keep that flashy new ~~ bullshit~~ content in the public's eye right?

MAN OF INTELLECTJul 27, 20152 votes

^^This

Why is Riot so focused on LC$?

Monsta MooJul 26, 20153 votes

That's Annie though, she bursts the living hell out of whoever tries her and then she useless for awhile, stuck on CD. She's the epitome of a mage champion, I think she is fine. We need some basic champs like her for the new members. If she was a super issue, you would see her in LCS and way more often in games. I hardly ever see Annie 's in my games. I don't know about the whole Veigar changes and all, this is just my 2 cents about the whole Annie supposedly being OP.

The QuinndredJul 26, 20155 votes

Annie is played in the LCS though. And quite often at that.

ChaoticPineconeJul 26, 20152 votes

...as a support. Because the best thing about her is the stun, not the burst.

Zair UmbrasJul 27, 20159 votes

No, it's the fact she can be a support that bursts. She can 1v1 ADC's and explode an ADC from 100-0 with just her support item half the time.

Her incredibly reliable stun is just icing on the cake.

Guy Fox TeemoJul 27, 20151 votes

I dont see how bursting an entire team to half 25% health while stunning them is , exactly "Being Useless" you contributed more to a fight then anyone, and you have pretty low cd's, except for your e and r.

Monsta MooJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I dont see how bursting an entire team to half 25% health while stunning them is , exactly "Being Useless" you contributed more to a fight then anyone, and you have pretty low cd's, except for your e and r.

Once you throw down your combo you are done, please read what I typed. No counter play? Her range got nerfed and she is weak to poke and as long as your team doesn't group tight and give her a free chance to ult 3-5 people, she's going to burn her shit and have to fall back or die. The only time I find Annie to be problem is when people literally ignore her presence until she is 8 kills deep then wonder how she's doing so much. Decent positioning and teamwork make her void unless you feed her and give her the opportunity to blow your whole team up.

Guy Fox TeemoJul 28, 20151 votes

Counter Play means you can AVOID whatever it is she does while also being able to retaliate, which you can't unless your xerath and have insane amounts of range. And im pretty sure all 126 champions don't have the range of xerath. None of her abilites are avoidable if your in range, none of them, all of them are instant. Which means no counterplay.

Monsta MooJul 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Counter Play means you can AVOID whatever it is she does while also being able to retaliate, which you can't unless your xerath and have insane amounts of range. And im pretty sure all 126 champions don't have the range of xerath. None of her abilites are avoidable if your in range, none of them, all of them are instant. Which means no counterplay.

That's kinda the point of range... it's starting to feel like you and others are just trying to grab onto to anything at this point to try and make a valid case. My argument still counters your point. I'm not even going to get into mobility with you lol.

Guy Fox TeemoJul 30, 20151 votes

Yea if you stay out of her range that fine you wont die, but you will be zoned, for the entire game because you risk not getting in range or be instantly stunned and die. And if you jsut get zoned the entire game, annie will just win the game all by herself. Happly taking every single objective she can because you dare not go near her. And don't even try to say mobility, mobility cannot dodge something that is instant.

TheLastShadow45Jul 28, 20151 votes

If you look at the role people mostly play Annie it's support, so she wont instagib someone at all. Sure she will do some damage just not delete. Also want to know how to deal with he stun? Don't do a group hug with your teammates and you'll be fine.

Guy Fox TeemoJul 28, 20151 votes

Annie has high base damages? And builds generally AP anyways even when she does support? Your also assuming people never play her mid, and only support, which is not true even the slightest.

TheLastShadow45Jul 28, 20151 votes

Did I say only? No I didn't. Don't try and say things I did not say.

If the "support" Annie is building mostly ap then they wanted to do Double carry bot lane and not have a true support. Support Annies will build more utility items then ap, trust me I have played Annie support a few times in the past. You can also go look at pros playing her, at most I have seen 70ap on them(getting that from lustBoy).

ShuffledPancakeJul 26, 20152 votes

If a full team got caught with a veigar ult they are playing wrong (Same vs brand and annie)

Mecha MaIphiteJul 26, 201525 votes

His ult is a single-target nuke.

ChaosThiefJul 26, 20153 votes

I think he meant annie ult.

LaceUp23Jul 26, 20154 votes

I think he meant his E lol.

Dextix LTJul 26, 20152 votes

Yes, and annies tibbers as an AOE nuke.

A Miss FortuneJul 26, 20156 votes

His ult kind of gimps him due to it doing 80% of the enemy's AP as extra damage. I think if they removed that feature of the ult, they could definitely buff all of his other abilities fairly well.

ThryaleJul 26, 20154 votes

while this is true, the problem lies in that it will also remove one of veigar's core (if not kinda old) identities as an anti-mage mage.

Troll for TrumpJul 27, 20155 votes

well let's look at the antimages: Kassadin :Dead Veigar :Dead Malzahar :Bad in the meta Talon :No silence? Dead Leblanc :fine Chogath :strong af Fiddlesticks :dead Fizz :(sorta antimage?) broken Morgana :fine/good Sivir :fine, but getting worse, due to nerfs. Vayne will rise to popularity and... cheese.

Sire HippingtonJul 27, 20152 votes

I wouldn't call everyone with a silence antimage, you know other champs want to use skills aswell? Same with spellshields... The only 3 that can actually be considered antimage are kassa(%magic damage reduction, shield vs magic damage), Veigar(damage based on enemie ap) and morgana(strong shield vs magic damage), the rest works vs other champs just as fine, or even better...

Troll for TrumpJul 27, 20151 votes

Im pretty sure malz is a antimage ish mage due to surpression and silence, as the early void champs were all antimageish. Sivir is a anticaster ADC I feel as if morg is an antimage due to her spellshiled alone being able to ruin so many kits. Only 3 champs have spellshields... Chogath IS an antimage.

Sire HippingtonJul 27, 20152 votes

silence screws over any champion if used correctly. For example If vayne get's hit by malzahars silence, she is defensless for 3 sec, enough time to kill her, no to speak of his ult totally destroying her... A tank that gets silenced the moment he goes in is totally screwed, as his entire intitation fails while he's vulnerable to counter attacks. Ask riven mains how it is to lane ve cho's silience, they won't be all to happy...

Sivir is an waveclear/aoe/team-speedbuff adc, all those elements outshine her spellshield by far and thus make her identity. And blocking a caitlin ult or irelia stun is just as helpfull as blocking a velkoz Q...

Relying on abillitys in lol is no way unique to mages, every champ has to make use of his abillitys to be effective, so silence is pretty damn effective vs any target.

doing mostly magic damge, while still not exclusive to mages, is more niche, same with building AP. This makes veigar, morgana and kassa somewhat niche counterpicks to an extend, as they specifically counter magical damage or ap-builts.

Troll for TrumpJul 27, 20151 votes

ok also effective has no k

Sire HippingtonJul 27, 20151 votes

thx, fixed it

OhthePiplupJul 27, 20151 votes

Galio

Doesnt exist aparently

Sire HippingtonJul 27, 20151 votes

thats cause he isn't that much of a antimage. Yes, he gains ap from building MR, but his kit also synergieses well with anti ad-items and works best to counter dive-comps.

ItsJrodzYoJul 27, 20151 votes

please explain to me how Talon is dead

Troll for TrumpJul 27, 20151 votes

worse in the meta now. He REALLY needs an escape other than his ult. Just let him e onto allies like Kata's E. somethin like that. He's still fun to play, but in a worser spot.

NauthesJul 27, 20151 votes

Alot of anti-mages are purple. O_O

LoerkaJul 27, 20152 votes

Meanwhile Annie is nuking ur whole team, then have a consistent DPS with Tibbers.

kirin13Jul 26, 20152 votes

The difference between Veigars old E, and any of Annies stuns is that Annie has a visual effect showing that her stun is ready, and that shes prepared to engage, which means you need to back off. Veigars old E was instant the only time that you could be sure he couldn't use it is when he was oom. The nerf to his E was to provide more counterplay to his stun, Annie already has room to be counterplayed with her spell ranges on the shorter end and lack of waveclear if she tries to save her stun.

Sire HippingtonJul 26, 20158 votes

or she runs around with 3 stacks and presses E befor the stun - boom, no indication and still instant stun...

ThryaleJul 26, 20154 votes

exactly this. Smart annie players don't just sit on her stun, they sit at 3 stacks and just throw her E up for that instant surprise stun.

Now, if riot were to give annie a visual update, they should give her the ryze treatment and have each spell light a little fire at her feet so that players can more easily keep count of when her stun will be up.

Zair UmbrasJul 27, 20151 votes

Annie did get a Visual Update. lol. The current Annie is the NEW Annie and they chose to make her passive harder to see.

ThryaleJul 27, 20153 votes

pretty sure that was about 2 years ago. VU's back then were nothing compared to how they are done now.

ponkzyJul 27, 20151 votes

who cares you know it's coming regardless of whether you see how many charges she has. take one misclick and she flashes and destroys you

ThryaleJul 27, 20152 votes

the ppl that are complaining about the nerf on veigar's E care?

The point is, unless you are staring right at her buff bar, you won't know when annie will land a stun on you or not due to how she can proc her passive with her E in order to the get last charge she needs to get a stun on her next spell. In other words, it's the same thing as having veigar walk up and insta stun you with his old E. You knew it was coming cuz he's walking to you.

SwollwonderJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

expect easier and** more often**

ult vs ability. You can stun more often with veigar lol

Guy Fox TeemoJul 27, 20156 votes

Every heard of her W bud?

AnidanJul 27, 20151 votes

Did I not hear about when her W was buffed to 1000 effective range for her stun?

Oh, it wasn't?

My bad.

Not saying anything in regards to the balance, but that comparison was pretty shitty. You compared probably her shortest range attack with an ability that had about 1000 effective range to use for a stun on demand. She can use her stun more often, but at shorter distances barring her ult, but that's her freaking ult you have to use to match that range.

Guy Fox TeemoJul 27, 20152 votes

1000 range or not, its still an instant AOE stun, i never talked about the range, instant aoe stun that can hit EVERYONE is still very strong even at short range, since ya know, they'll be stunned.