"Duskblade is a problem and is deleting squishies way too quickly"

Succubús GF·Feb 16, 2018·26 votes·2,290 views

See: Shaco, j4, zed, talon or literally any other auto ad champion. Trying to think of an item similar that was also an issue Cough Dfg? But that got deleted so uwu

62 Comments

Call Me NanaFeb 16, 201814 votes

duskblade needs to go. period. There's no reason for it, dfg was taken away and it literally does the exact same shit.

it's such an unhealthy item and basically is the reason i permaban zed. Zed is frustrating enough to play as without the fear of being sneezed on and losing my entire hp bar.

ŚhunpoFeb 17, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleepy Bubble,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kj2frzjt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-16T23:14:21.306+0000)

duskblade needs to go. period. There's no reason for it, dfg was taken away and it literally does the exact same shit.

it's such an unhealthy item and basically is the reason i permaban zed. Zed is frustrating enough to play as without the fear of being sneezed on and losing my entire hp bar.

While Duskblade DOES need to go they also need to fix the AD assassins within that same hypothetical patch since they gated every AD assassin's upfront damage (except for Kha'zix for some odd reason).

I guess the easiest way about this is to simply revert the assassin reworks :D

XavanicFeb 17, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleepy Bubble,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kj2frzjt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-16T23:14:21.306+0000)

duskblade needs to go. period. There's no reason for it, dfg was taken away and it literally does the exact same shit.

it's such an unhealthy item and basically is the reason i permaban zed. Zed is frustrating enough to play as without the fear of being sneezed on and losing my entire hp bar.

Then buff assassins across the board to compensate, they all need it to function period

EA14Feb 17, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleepy Bubble,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kj2frzjt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-16T23:14:21.306+0000)

duskblade needs to go. period. There's no reason for it, dfg was taken away and it literally does the exact same shit.

it's such an unhealthy item and basically is the reason i permaban zed. Zed is frustrating enough to play as without the fear of being sneezed on and losing my entire hp bar.

U haven't played much zed huh? Current state is trash rn. lmao any champ + stopwatch = dead zed

MysticDreams12Feb 17, 20182 votes

But as you know stopwatch can only be used once, and Zhonya's has a long active CD so you are dead more often than he is.

AzadetheFeb 16, 201813 votes

Tbh the new item will have that potential.....

Spellbound Orb currently will get up to 200 AP for 4 seconds when charged. On the right build that's going to be an insanely strong, cost effective "increased damage" boost.

For example....

item 3003 Spellbound Orb item 3089 item 3041 item 3100

Is gonna be a pretty potent build.

That's going to be around 3000 Mana build, or 140 AP from Seraph, 125 AP Death Cap, 200 AP Spellbound, 145 from a stacked Mejai, 80 from lich:

Without Gathering Storm and Transcendence and Eyeball collection, that's 994 AP. With it we're talking closer to 1100, and it's a lot cheaper than competitive builds that achieve similar AP. That's also 3 Move speed items, totalling up to +57% Move speed bonus.

Call Me NanaFeb 17, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Tbh the new item will have that potential.....

Spellbound Orb currently will get up to 200 AP for 4 seconds when charged. On the right build that's going to be an insanely strong, cost effective "increased damage" boost.

For example....

Spellbound Orb

Is gonna be a pretty potent build.

That's going to be around 3000 Mana build, or 140 AP from Seraph, 125 AP Death Cap, 200 AP Spellbound, 145 from a stacked Mejai, 80 from lich:

Without Gathering Storm and Transcendence and Eyeball collection, that's 994 AP. With it we're talking closer to 1100, and it's a lot cheaper than competitive builds that achieve similar AP. That's also 3 Move speed items, totalling up to +57% Move speed bonus.

please tell me when a game lasted long enough for you to get a seraphs embrace. Mages can get maybe 2-3 items + boots completed before the game is over.

King of DemonsFeb 17, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleepy Bubble,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kj2frzjt,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-02-17T00:21:14.349+0000)

please tell me when a game lasted long enough for you to get a seraphs embrace. Mages can get maybe 2-3 items + boots completed before the game is over.

They are pushing Seraphs to become a rush item or at least second item so yeah.

Plus you only need the money, doesn't matter if it's not fully stacked. You still get like 150 AP when finishing the item on live right now, the upgrade is only the shield.

Either way, games don't end at 20 minutes, making a 3 to 4 item build extremely achievable.

AzadetheFeb 17, 20184 votes

For one thing, it's gaining 20% CDR next patch It's going to replace item 3165 as the first item, unless you're going item 3030 or item 3285 , because GLP is losing HP but gaining mana, and losing its Eternity passive, and Luden's is losing its move speed and 20 AP.

item 3003 will likely be #1, because it's the only one that still has a mana refund function to sustain your mana.

Seraph is actually a pretty common finish item. It's just that.... cookie cutter nubs don't generally play mages, and the ones who do, cookie cutter build . They don't seem to realize that as long as they have non target abilities (skill shots) or self buffs, charging a Seraph's only takes about 6 minutes if you buy it outright, and if you buy the and put off finishing it, you have mana utility, and by the time you're ready to buy a third item, you usually have it close to fully charged.

Champs I build item 3003 on every game:

Ahri Karma Nami Sona Zilean Xerath Velkoz Ryze

Champs I build it on Sometimes:

Evelynn (Good snowballing item, she charges it fast after getting it, replaces the Barrier she lost from her old kit) MissFortune (As a support, really works well with her E, making her a no recall spammer, and it also works on her Q and R pretty well; I can actually build both item 3003 and item 3042 in a 30 minute game and get one charged and the other half charged. The build pushes her ult to about 8900 damage, and her on hit shreds tanks; They feed off each other's mana for even more AD and more AP) Zoe (Good skill spammer and can get about 170 AP out of it).

I think you really have no clue how fast it charges. It's stronger and more reliable than a item 3041

Call Me NanaFeb 17, 20187 votes

{quoted}

For one thing, it's gaining 20% CDR next patch It's going to replace as the first item, unless you're going or , because GLP is losing HP but gaining mana, and losing its Eternity passive, and Luden's is losing its move speed and 20 AP.

will likely be #1, because it's the only one that still has a mana refund function to sustain your mana.

Seraph is actually a pretty common finish item. It's just that.... cookie cutter nubs don't generally play mages, and the ones who do, cookie cutter build . They don't seem to realize that as long as they have non target abilities (skill shots) or self buffs, charging a Seraph's only takes about 6 minutes if you buy it outright, and if you buy the and put off finishing it, you have mana utility, and by the time you're ready to buy a third item, you usually have it close to fully charged.

Champs I build on every game:

Champs I build it on Sometimes:

(Good snowballing item, she charges it fast after getting it, replaces the Barrier she lost from her old kit) (As a support, really works well with her E, making her a no recall spammer, and it also works on her Q and R pretty well; I can actually build both and in a 30 minute game and get one charged and the other half charged. The build pushes her ult to about 8900 damage, and her on hit shreds tanks; They feed off each other's mana for even more AD and more AP) (Good skill spammer and can get about 170 AP out of it).

I think you really have no clue how fast it charges. It's stronger and more reliable than a

if you're building seraphs on ahri, anmi and karma there's probably a very good indicator as to why you have never made it out of bronze.

It Hertz When IPFeb 17, 20183 votes

From what I understand AP assassins were occasionally taking it for the Seraph shield.

AzadetheFeb 17, 20182 votes

Erm..... this account was only used to spam the New Eve as a test..... My actual accounts are Plat IV and Plat I atm..... even this one finished like Silver I even though I only played it 2 months.

Nami and Karma hyper charge it, and easily reach high AP numbers and never have to recall with it. It also boosts their AP to the point where their move speed is significant.

item 3305 item 3070 item 3504 item 3174 item 3040 item 3165 (in that order) on Nami will beat any other build hands down.

I don't care what win rate sites say: they only post builds which have large sample sizes, and when the healing/shield items came out, supports got on board completely, even if it wasn't the right thing to do mathematically. This build wins more, has all around substantial heals, damage, never has to recall, and outruns full build Udyrs without even having shoes built in.

I can 1v5 with Nami vs most teams.

Karma doesn't necessarily need a Seraph, but sometimes, it just fits a power spike better than picking more CDR items. Still, it allows her to get around without burning up her mana on skill spam, and if you have it + a Void staff, it's one of the easiest 2 item combos to control a game. I only run item 3003 on her if the other team doesn't have a significant need to build item 3065 or item 3110 Some teams need Karma to be tankier, and others don't. Vs a team that doesn't need defense but rather poke, item 3504 item 3100 item 3040 item 3135 item 3165 are generally the items of choice. This will ofc change in 8.4, and item 3003 will be item #1, with its 1650 Mana and 20% CDR

TyermaillinFeb 18, 20181 votes

Current Archangel's never "fits a better power spike" than CDR on Karma. She has no issues with mana, it provides no CDR, and the increased AP isn't a payoff for in inefficiency on her, both midlane and support.

AzadetheFeb 18, 20181 votes

Wrong. If you have a specific recall where you have 2350g, it's worth the upgrade. Its power isn't the CDR; It's the Mana Refund abuse, which allows you to purely spam and never recall.

It basically is to mages what Ornn's passive is to him: an way to gain 60-70% kill participation rates = more gold, never bottoming mana. A Karma with it can spam skills, rather than just purely timing them for specific shots, and get more gold for doing so, more damage for doing so, and can pretty much run the map, tethering target after target to control a game without ever having to recall.

And, it's a friggin 179-183 AP item on common Karma builds PRE deathcap bonus. Also works very well with tank karma, which builds item 3110 item 3025 item 3165 all of which pump mana, and the result is that the loss of AP damage from doing so becomes negligible (those 4 items alone = 324 AP + 20 base AP + potentially 30 AP from Eyeball collection + 8-80 AP from Gathering Storm = 382 - 454. If you Death cap that it's a 635.5 AP build and tank as hell.

That's also why it's insane on Nami: You can spam skills clear from base as Nami to charge Tear, which procs her passive every single time you skill yourself or an ally. It gets your adc back to lane faster, you a larger mana reservoir, and you still have mana for when you lane. Mid game on Nami it shifts your build to 367-430 AP, which just becomes an insane presence that never has to recall. (Mid game my Namis have about 100-120 more AP than my mid mages unless it's veigar)

Archangels = League of spam. Other mana items don't do that, and you will bottom out unless you have ~ 50 mana regen/second. I often bottom out with even 20 mana regen/second.

Something I want to emphasize:

Karma generally starts Support item + item 3504 + item 3174 or item 3107 as support. That's 40% CDR. The only thing MORE CDR does is add 20 AP per 10%. So non support item 2, you're capped 40% CDR. A "power spike" I'm talking about occurs about then, when you are working your third full item. My third item on Karma Support/mid is usually either item 3165 or item 3003 ; The morello is nice if you want grievous wounds, but if you need more Q burst, is better, because at this point in the game it's ~ 40 more AP. To me, it depends on if I recall with a Tome and have 2000g, or if I have a tear and recall with 2350g

TyermaillinFeb 19, 20181 votes

Wrong. If you have a specific recall where you have 2350g, it's worth the upgrade. Its power isn't the CDR; It's the Mana Refund abuse, which allows you to purely spam and never recall.

Karma does not need any mana refund because she does not struggle with mana. Early damage items like Lost Chapter augment her strong early damage; Tear inhibits it.

Nothing else that you say matters considering you're gimping Karma's dominant early solo laning with Tear and further truncating the small gold budget of a support Karma. So no, it's not good.

AzadetheFeb 19, 20181 votes

Lost tome only recovers some Mana on leveling. You're really so far inside the box it's not even funny. On Karma, Lost Chapter = 3 more casts of Q than without it.

Tear = 20-30 casts.

And...... Karma has 2 major attributes which make Lost chapter irrelevant:

She can R > Q for full minion HP by the time it's level 3 (about the same time as she gets Lost Chapter).
She has one of the fastest auto attack resets in the game of all mages, meaning Orbing is easy, and her range is higher than some adcs. I often completely lane her without ever casting a skill on minions.

In fact, when I top lane karma, my first item is often item 3091 , because I'm an expert at auto attacking to maximize Karma's Passive, both by hitting ONLY champs with spells and then auto attacking them. I actually take Grasp of the Undying on Top lane Karma and get some ~ 50-75 procs a game. ( pairs VERY well with a champ whose got an auto attack feature whose laner will always build magic resist, and has high base magic damage pre AP, especially if her team also has magic damage).

My top lane Karma build is usually along these lines: item 3091 item 3115 item 3100 item 3065 item 3110 with some variant builds including item 3040 or item 3151 or item 3165 or item 3089 or item 3027 depending on the target. Sometimes I can't go auto attack post lane, so I just get the and put the rest of the build in tank, or burst, depending (like whose going to auto attack Kayn )

So um..... no. Lost Chapter doesn't beat Tear.

Also, this is all irrelevant in 4 days. in 4 days, item 3003 is all you got for mana sustain, and it builds out of item 3802 and has 20% cdr.

TyermaillinFeb 20, 20181 votes

Lost tome only recovers some Mana on leveling.

Holy fuck I've stated twice already that Karma does not struggle with mana; what you get from Lost Chapter/Morello's is sufficient AND offers a far better early spike than Tear/Archangel's whilst providing AP without any gated cost. Also CDR, because that is the most vital stat on her, an ult-reliant enchanter-mage.

And again everything else you write is nonsense.

Succubús GFFeb 17, 20182 votes

Ive literally seen multiple high elo people take tear on ahri and i ended p5 last season. Gtfo

Tails9016Feb 17, 20184 votes

Ryze looking at the numbers

https://i.imgur.com/UZzIhPc.jpg[/img]

AzadetheFeb 17, 20182 votes

Ryze is going to be pretty curious, given AA's loss of AP, but gain of mana...... His build prob won't change too much, but it could.

SteelflameFeb 17, 20182 votes

The big thing is he is gaining CDR where he originally wasn't getting it at almost no cost to himself. That is huge for him.

RocketRelmFeb 17, 20181 votes

Ryze will build Seraphs, because it's going to be crazy good on him. Saying "AA loses AP but gains mana" misframes what's happening.

The trade is 30 AP for 20% CDR + 400 Mana. 400 Mana gives 12 AP, so you're really trading less than an Amp Tome's worth of AP, plus, better build path. This is a considerable buff.

AzadetheFeb 17, 20182 votes

It really depends on the REST of the build.

Atm, Ryze builds item 3027 item 3165 item 3003 item 3089 item 3135 for his highest non specific win rate build
( item 3001 is his 69% win, but that's probably situational on mage teams)

The key problem for Ryze that's going to arise is with item 3165 .

It's losing the 20% CDR, and all its mana scaling. In other words, building Grievous wounds on Ryze is going to suddenly affect his damage output.

He'll be able to replace it with a few things:

item 3285 item 3030 item 3001 But it's going to reposition what champs he can play vs. For example, Garen or Nasus or Maokai are more or less going to be able to own him, because Second Wind will heal them out of his damage, and there's nothing he can do without Grievous.

And, the second item power spike isn't going to really change these exchanges, due to the lack of Grievous wounds.

EndersBreadFeb 17, 201811 votes

cough cough NINJA TABI COUGH GUARDIAN ANGEL hack Shield supports

no to toxicFeb 17, 20183 votes

There are things that counter my class therefore I need this overpowered ball of stats item

TequilaZombieFeb 17, 20182 votes

Actually, yes. Riot put Marksmen and Assassins at an arms race, with the obvious edge going to the class with a dedicated life saver.

The one thing standing between assassins having situational kill potential against marksmen and not being able to do anything to them, is currently Duskblade.

In a vacuum, it's an horribly designed item, specially given it's counterparts (Ghostblade, EoN). In the current League Meta, it's a bit of a mandatory item that keep assassins from needing another class overhaul.

YumaS2AstralFeb 17, 20188 votes

Duskblade was fine before the changes. Despite dealing true damage, its base damage was significantly lower. To make the most out of it, you were required to use this item in a dedicated lethality stacking build. It also didn't had cooldown reduction, and its item recipe was arguably worse.

The current Duskblade does a lot more damage. The fact that it does physical damage and its damage doesn't scale doesn't matter when its base damage is so high and you are going to target squishies (which have low armor to begin with). It can be used as a standalone lethality item on builds due to that reason.

The initial incarnation of Duskblade was also fine. Yes, it dealt damage based on your missing health, but it was delayed. If you weren't low health to begin with, you didn't had anything to worry about. If you were about to die, you had a few seconds to shield/heal before dying. That was its counterplay.

With all that said, I can't recall Deathfire Grasp ever being considered a healthy item.

Akali is SO HOTFeb 16, 20187 votes

Not comparable. Duskblade only procs a single time in a fight unless your one of the few champions that can manage to get multiple ones off. DFG enhanced all magic damage (not just yours) by 20% for 4 whole seconds. Not to mention it had a big ass max health nuke attached to the active for no reason. It promoted numerous unhealthy playstyles and was just all around bullshit to play against. Both Duskblade and DFG serve the same purpose of adding burst to your combo, but DFG did it in a completely unhealthy way while Duskblade does it just fine.

U GOT WRECKT LOLFeb 17, 20187 votes

Hello item 2423 I just wanted you to know I'm here and I am the worst item in history of league of legends.

XavanicFeb 17, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=U GOT WRECKT LOL,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kj2frzjt,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-02-17T02:38:53.561+0000)

Hello I just wanted you to know I'm here and I am the worst item in history of league of legends.

Yeah, THIS needs to fucking go, along with the rune

saltranFeb 17, 20182 votes

I don't think that the item itself is a mistake, byt the rune that gives it free indeed is a really fked up mistake.

Chromatic EagleFeb 17, 20181 votes

I don't think the item is bad, but the rune makes it a little ridiculous.

sit kidFeb 17, 20186 votes

item 3087 item 3094

I'll just leave this here

FilDaFunkFeb 17, 20185 votes

Oh, it's because DFG was a mage item, and rito clearly hates mages.

AmazoXFeb 17, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Oh, it's because DFG was a mage item, and rito clearly hates mages.

COUGH Someone's COUGH not COUGH checked COUGH the COUGH patch COUGH notes COUGH on COUGH PBE COUGH

zaire90Feb 17, 20185 votes

This item is the only thing keeping any ad assassin relevant tho because before this they were useless so if you want this nerfed there needs to be some compensation somewhere else

vgamedudeFeb 17, 20184 votes

Even with duskblade assassins can't do their job against adcs in this meta so oh boy can't wait to see how much even stronger adcs get if it's gone.

LordGeovanniFeb 17, 20183 votes

Ranged burst on ranged champions versus a melee class that is designed to target ranged champions who dont build defenses.

Devilreaper XIIIFeb 17, 20183 votes

these days i need to have asian reflexes to properly ult with zilean [slayer-jinx-unamused]

ŚhunpoFeb 17, 20182 votes

I really don't understand why they changed the stat. called armour penetration to lethality. Sure, there's the "you do better when you're ahead now" argument, but that's just a lazy way of saying "buy this stat. every game or be useless", given how assassins play anyways.

Take it from a guy who mained Rengar in seasons 4 through to season 6, armour pen. was a much better stat. to both balance and use in game.

However, Duskblade as an item is Riot's way of saying "we nerfed every AD assassin's upfront damage (except for Kha'zix LUL) so build this EVERY game or you're useless". This is insulting since the old AD assassins actually had some level of variance in their build paths, now it's just "stack lethality and win game SMOrc". The unseen passive+the ward detection passive is just an unneeded added bonus.

no to toxicFeb 17, 20181 votes

Saying armor pen was fine is rather naive since shortly before the rework every single champion that could build it, build it. Unless you weren`t there when the meta was Jayce Jhin and Varu killing you 2 Blitzcrank Qs away or Lucian killing everyone solo without the enemy being able to do anything against it

ŚhunpoFeb 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=no to toxic,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kj2frzjt,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-02-17T09:50:54.398+0000)

Saying armor pen was fine is rather naive since shortly before the rework every single champion that could build it, build it. Unless you weren`t there when the meta was Jayce Jhin and Varu killing you 2 Qs away or Lucian killing everyone solo without the enemy being able to do anything against it

That's not what happened at all. Lethality is the thing you're thinking of. However, Jayce was still good at the time.

ExternalLinkFeb 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I really don't understand why they changed the stat. called armour penetration to lethality. Sure, there's the "you do better when you're ahead now" argument, but that's just a lazy way of saying "buy this stat. every game or be useless", given how assassins play anyways.

Take it from a guy who mained Rengar in seasons 4 through to season 6, armour pen. was a much better stat. to both balance and use in game.

However, Duskblade as an item is Riot's way of saying "we nerfed every AD assassin's upfront damage (except for Kha'zix LUL) so build this EVERY game or you're useless". This is insulting since the old AD assassins actually had some level of variance in their build paths, now it's just "stack lethality and win game SMOrc". The unseen passive+the ward detection passive is just an unneeded added bonus.

It was a nerf to Assasssins Think about how much you could shred as Rengar in season 4, then think about what you could do with him (lul) now.

ŚhunpoFeb 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It was a nerf to Assasssins Think about how much you could shred as Rengar in season 4, then think about what you could do with him (lul) now.

Yeah, I can agree with that, however AD assassins are monsters with Duskblade and lethality in general. Sure, you shredded people as season 4 Rengar, but honestly Duskblade is a whole lot more obnoxious.

Season 4 Rengar had to full combo you to kill you, now assassins just right click you and that first auto is most of your HP if they're ahead. The drawback to this is that AD assassins have utter garbage kits now besides Zed and Kha'zix.

Ralik098Feb 17, 20182 votes

Assassins are not allowed to assassinate people.

BarkleyFeb 17, 20182 votes

No, they are. They're just not allowed to insta-nuke people with virtually zero counterplay, and also detect wards, and also step into a brush and insta-nuke the person standing next to the person they just insta-nuked, then then step into a bush again, and.....

you get the point.

FCJAAAAGOOOOFeb 17, 20182 votes

Crit items are deleting squishies too quickly

Wait let me rephrase that

Crit items are deleting everyone too quickly

PopcornBunniFeb 17, 2018

As the only offensive item on a Poppy it turns her E engage into a 70% life bar combo without a collision and an almost always 100-death combo if the stun lands.

This isn't even a fucking assassin item, it just turns literally anyone who buys it into an assassin.

XavanicFeb 17, 20185 votes

{quoted}

As the only offensive item on a it turns her E engage into a 70% life bar combo without a collision and an almost always 100-death combo if the stun lands.

This isn't even a fucking assassin item, it just turns literally anyone who buys it into an assassin.

and even then assassins are still struggling, maybe they should just stop nerfing the class?