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PSA: Tanks are not supposed to be unkillable late game

HateDaddy··26 votes·3,357 views

It doesn't matter what they buy, at a certain point tanks should be killable. Tanks durability spike in the mid game where it honestly can take 10 full seconds of focus from an entire team to kill them if they've managed to get ahead, but generally it's more around 6-7 seconds. Either way you slice it, this is incredibly durable.

I also keep seeing people throw around the excuse that all this flat pen exists, flat pen is not good vs tanks. If I hear one more person make this implication, I'm going to freak out.

"B-b-but black cleaver!!!"

If an ADC has built black cleaver, it means in the mid game they don't have any crit, attack speed, lifesteal and even a significant amount of ad. Sure, ADCs that can function more like casters can still hurt but their DPS is going to be so low they will still take awhile to kill a tank because they don't attack fast enough.

All of this non sense about tanks dying in 2-3 seconds late game are extreme scenarios where you're engaging 1v5. If you're playing a tank properly, you're not going to die in 2-3 seconds.

I play a lot of malphite and Maokai and trust me, even when I don't do too well in lane, I still take forever to kill because I play to zone control and force priority targets to kite me, then I disengage and make them choose between chasing me and as a result, this could force them into bad position and at the very least it prevents them from moving past the front line to clean up low hp targets.

When ADCs build LD, they are not "denying" your ability to be a tank. A tanks sole purpose isn't to damage soak. You can't expect to stand still and live for longer than 5-6 seconds from unretaliated damage from a full glass cannon build. Instead of whining about dying so fast either:

A) kill the full glass cannon zero defense champion

Or

B) protect yours then kill their full glass cannon zero defense champion

Tanks have to be killable, if they aren't killable in the late game then tanks become such a dominant class that you see 4-5 tanks a game between both teams and that isn't healthy variety.

so please start being realistic, tanks are not melting all at an extreme rate. and I play plenty of tanks so it's not like I'm some anti-tank player whining from bias, I'm telling you tanks are fine.

And p.s, the secret to gaining elo is protecting your carries instead of engaging 1v5. You'd be amazed how long you live when you try this in combination with zone controling.

48 Comments

Critmaster Garen8 votes

what really anoys me, is that cleaver was meant to be a core item for fighters (and a secondary item to certain assassins), to give them some team synergy and more reason for a team to pick them, but is used to greater effect on some adc.

its become a core item on MissFortune and Lucian who are using it to greater effect against the class it is targeted at, than bruisers themsleves.

it wouldnt be as bad if it was a situational item, but this has to stop. the cleaver changes in preseason should be reverted and they should make it slightly more expensive while adding 100 health back on.

if that doesnt work, then maybe its tme to think about adding the melee only tag to it aswell, or put some other range penalty on it, like less maximum cleaver stacks for ranged champions. (only 20% armor shred tops for them)

imagine the outcry if certain assassins would build adc items like item 3031 to increase their burst and sustained damage and carry harder than adc.

67chrome1 votes

imagine the outcry if certain assassins would build adc items like item 3031 to carry harder than adc.

MasterYiYasuo?

Critmaster Garen8 votes

{quoted}

MasterYiYasuo?

theyre melee adc, and focus around sustained damage like marksmen.

im talking mostly about Rengar Khazix and the likes.

also, have you been on these boards recently? people are complaining about yasuo and yi practically nonstop. there are at least two threads every day demanding to remove yasuos crit passive.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Since when did kha'zix build ie?

Ignore this shit^

My bad

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgWnIF1E,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-08-17T21:40:14.362+0000)

theyre melee adc, and focus around sustained damage like marksmen.

im talking mostly about Rengar Khazix and the likes.

also, have you been on these boards recently? people are complaining about yasuo and yi practically nonstop. there are at least two threads every day demanding to remove yasuos crit passive.

http://champion.gg/champion/Rengar/Jungle

Rengar does build crit items. No one really cares about that aspect of him.

Wind Whistler1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgWnIF1E,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-08-17T21:40:14.362+0000)

theyre melee adc, and focus around sustained damage like marksmen.

im talking mostly about Rengar Khazix and the likes.

also, have you been on these boards recently? people are complaining about yasuo and yi practically nonstop. there are at least two threads every day demanding to remove yasuos crit passive.

Wouldn't exactly call Yi a Melee ADC. Anyone who can run up on a Xerath or a Kog'Maw and murder them is pretty assassin-y.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgWnIF1E,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-08-17T21:34:44.457+0000)

what really anoys me, is that cleaver was meant to be a core item for fighters (and a secondary item to certain assassins), to give them some team synergy and more reason for a team to pick them, but is used to greater effect on some adc.

its become a core item on MissFortune and Lucian who are using it to greater effect against the class it is targeted at, than bruisers themsleves.

it wouldnt be as bad if it was a situational item, but this has to stop. the cleaver changes in preseason should be reverted and they should make it slightly more expensive while adding 100 health back on.

if that doesnt work, then maybe its tme to think about adding the melee only tag to it aswell, or put some other range penalty on it, like less maximum cleaver stacks for ranged champions. (only 20% armor shred tops for them)

imagine the outcry if certain assassins would build adc items like item 3031 to increase their burst and sustained damage and carry harder than adc.

It works well on 2 ADCs, I don't think there's anything wrong with its current interactions. It's basically a press R build for MF too, so it's really team comp dependent

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

It works well on 2 ADCs, I don't think there's anything wrong with its current interactions. It's basically a press R build for MF too, so it's really team comp dependent

the problem with it is not necessarily that its op on them, but that its pushing cleaver bruisers (or assassins like Pantheon to a lesser degree) out of their nieche. when they made the item, the main idea behind making the effect armor shred and not armor pen, was to give them synergy with their team.

youre facing a lot of armor tanks like Malphite Rammus or Taric ?

then maybe its worth thinking of taking a cleaver bruiser like Darius or Garen along who synergize very well with the item and can support your own carries who build attack speed + crit + item 3035 with some damage amplification.

but why would you ever do that, when you can pick MissFortune or Lucian with item 3071 item 3142 item 3147 and get the same heavy armor shredding effect on the carry himself, and pick some heavy initiator like Kled or a peel machine like Nautilus or someone similar into the top lane?

item 3071 was supposed to give bruisers who were struggling due to the lack of targeted itemization and lack of team synergy a way to make themselves relevant for their team. its kind of bad, when adc can use the item very effective against the same bruisers who rely on their resistances to a large part.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgWnIF1E,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2016-08-17T22:06:50.062+0000)

the problem with it is not necessarily that its op on them, but that its pushing cleaver bruisers (or assassins like Pantheon to a lesser degree) out of their nieche. when they made the item, the main idea behind making the effect armor shred and not armor pen, was to give them synergy with their team.

youre facing a lot of armor tanks like Malphite Rammus or Taric ?

then maybe its worth thinking of taking a cleaver bruiser like Darius or Garen along who synergize very well with the item and can support your own carries who build attack speed + crit + item 3035 with some damage amplification.

but why would you ever do that, when you can pick MissFortune or Lucian with item 3071 item 3142 item 3147 and get the same heavy armor shredding effect on the carry himself, and pick some heavy initiator like Kled Nautilus or someone similar into the top lane?

item 3071 was supposed to give bruisers who were struggling due to the lack of targeted itemization and lack of team synergy a way to make themselves relevant for their team. its kind of bad, when adc can use the item very effective against the same bruisers who rely on their resistances to a large part.

But the item is still good on bruisers not matter what, especially Darius, Garen, Olaf and Renekton. Also, with those builds, running those 2 armor pen items and BC means a carries relative DPS is still pretty low because we have to assume they'll pick up lord Dominks or Mortal Reminder. Then they'll probably get a defensive item or BT. So they have lots of AD sure but no crit and no attack speed, two stats that you NEED as an ADC to kill tanks in addition to %armor pen.

I don't really think the item is "being abused." You have to wonder why these items would be built over traditional crit items/as items that scale much harder than these armor pen builds. Are other ADCs bad? I don't know but I don't consider it a case of the item being abused.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

But the item is still good on bruisers not matter what, especially Darius, Garen, Olaf and Renekton.

but you still have less of a need for those guys if the adc can shred the enemy armor himself like that. there is no advantage in having a second cleaver on your team, since the lucian or mf can get those stacks up on their own.

while if cleaver wasnt available to adc like that youd think really hard if you dont want to take one of these bruisers with you into a game against a team of armor stackers.

Also, with those builds, running those 2 armor pen items and BC means a carries relative DPS is still pretty low because we have to assume they'll pick up lord Dominks or Mortal Reminder. Then they'll probably get a defensive item or BT. So they have lots of AD sure but no crit and no attack speed, two stats that you NEED as an ADC to kill tanks in addition to %armor pen.

I don't really think the item is "being abused." You have to wonder why these items would be built over traditional crit items/as items that scale much harder than these armor pen builds. Are other ADCs bad? I don't know but I don't consider it a case of the item being abused.

these items are abused because games are generally shorter than in the past and it gives them a stronger midgame power spike, while their dps is weaker lategame by only a very small margin than going for ad/as/crit.

the difference in dps of these armor pen builds by lategame compared to crit builds is not that large. and in some cases of armor reliant opponents, they probably deal more damage.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgWnIF1E,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-17T22:30:03.942+0000)

but you still have less of a need for those guys if the adc can shred the enemy armor himself like that. there is no advantage in having a second cleaver on your team, since the lucian or mf can get those stacks up on their own.

while if cleaver wasnt available to adc like that youd think really hard if you dont want to take one of these bruisers with you into a game against a team of armor stackers.

You're making the assumption that the only thing these bruisers are good for is to shred armor. Garen has his villain niche, not to mention his aoe damage is not to be underestimated. Darius has heals + true damage dunks. Olaf is immune to cc and dives, renekton sits in your team and aoe spams. In all of these cases, they're also getting the movement speed bonus from the phage procs, which helps them.

These items are great on these bruisers, these bruisers are not great or not because BC exists, though it certainly helps.

these items are abused because games are generally shorter than in the past and it gives them a stronger midgame power spike, while their dps is weaker lategame by only a very small margin than going for ad/as/crit.

the difference in dps of these armor pen builds by lategame compared to crit builds is not that large. and in some cases of armor reliant opponents, they probably deal more damage.

I'm sorry, just no. There's no way an armor pen build ADC will out damage a full build AS/100% Crit with LD build. And these flat pen builds fall off late game against tanks hardcore, so again, just no.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

You're making the assumption that the only thing these bruisers are good for is to shred armor.

no, i know thats not the only reason why youd pick them. but theyre not exactly great picks right now either, and preserving their nieche as champions who synergize with their team via damage amplification could help them, because it would give teams reason to take them along just a bit more often.

this is what the item was originally designed for in the first place.

the thing is, lucian and mf wouldnt be suddenly shit if they didnt have cleaver available anymore. they still have crit itemization to fall back to, which is just as effective (or as you said, even more effective), just takes slightly longer to get a power spike off.

while being able to get the armor shred in with a cleaver is a big deal for those bruisers to give them more relevance over champions who have a lot of team synergy in their kits already. at the same time its keeping that build nieche against armor stacking teams without making it strong in all cases.

I'm sorry, just no. There's no way an armor pen build ADC will out damage a full build AS/100% Crit with LD build. And these flat pen builds fall off late game against tanks hardcore, so again, just no.

either way, the difference in dps between those builds is not that large. as long as theyre able to still carry and kill tanks, it apparantly doesnt matter that they deal slightly less damage at 40 minuts for dealing largely more damage at 30 minutes.

otherwise these builds wouldnt be core on those champions.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgWnIF1E,comment-id=0003000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-17T22:49:51.632+0000)

no, i know thats not the only reason why youd pick them. but theyre not exactly great picks right now either, and preserving their nieche as champions who synergize with their team via damage amplification could help them.

the thing is, lucian and mf wouldnt be suddenly shit if they didnt have cleaver available anymore. they still have crit itemization to fall back to.

while being able to get the armor shred in with a cleaver is a big deal for those bruisers to give them more relevance over champions who have a lot of utility in their kits. while at the same time keeping that build nieche against armor stacking teams without making it strong in all cases.

But that's the thing, an ADC can build to ignore armor no matter what. And the only champions who benefit from the armor shred are ad champions. And ADCs are always going to itemize armor pen in some form unless the enemy team has no tanks. So really, these bruisers having these items isn't making much of a difference.

Also, I think Darius, Illaoi and Renekton are all pretty damn decent right now. Garen is kinda meh but I think that's because garens kit is garbage and he relies too much on his villain passive.

I'm not a fan of killing build variety and I really don't see this as ADCs "abusing" BC. Again, I do find it odd that crit/as ADCs are not being played much right now but then again, nerfs to Ashe and Jhin could bring on an as/crit ADC meta.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

But that's the thing, an ADC can build to ignore armor no matter what. And the only champions who benefit from the armor shred are ad champions. And ADCs are always going to itemize armor pen in some form unless the enemy team has no tanks. So really, these bruisers having these items isn't making much of a difference.

Also, I think Darius, Illaoi and Renekton are all pretty damn decent right now. Garen is kinda meh but I think that's because garens kit is garbage and he relies too much on his villain passive.

I'm not a fan of killing build variety and I really don't see this as ADCs "abusing" BC. Again, I do find it odd that crit/as ADCs are not being played much right now but then again, nerfs to Ashe and Jhin could bring on an as/crit ADC meta.

darius and illaoi, yes. but its been a long time since i saw a renekton or olaf.

and while adc are opting for armor pen, the usual route would be item 3035 which would make a cleaver bruiser still synergize with an ad carry with a crit/as build on his team.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgWnIF1E,comment-id=000300010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-17T23:02:19.838+0000)

darius and illaoi, yes. but its been a long time since i saw a renekton or olaf.

I see renektons relatively frequently. Not a ton, but I see them.

Olaf has never really been good in solo queue but the moment worlds hit and Orianna is the best champ in the game, I wouldn't be surprised to see an Olaf.

and while adc are opting for armor pen, the usual route would be item 3035 which would make a cleaver bruiser still synergize with an ad carry with a crit/as build on his team.

Yeah but that's not a significant enough reason to elect or elect not to pick a bruiser.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted} Yeah but that's not a significant enough reason to elect or elect not to pick a bruiser.

remember that cleaver sheds base armor pen, while last whisper only affects bonus armor pen now. so the interaction is stronger than it used to be.

if it just makes between 10 and 20 armor pen for the adc its probably worth it.

HateDaddy1 votes

Eh, I still don't see that being reason enough. You don't know if the BC bruiser will even be prioritizing the same targets as the ADC.

I don't deny its a synergy but again, I don't think it's meaningful enough to be the difference in picking a BC bruiser.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgWnIF1E,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-08-17T21:34:44.457+0000)

what really anoys me, is that cleaver was meant to be a core item for fighters (and a secondary item to certain assassins), to give them some team synergy and more reason for a team to pick them, but is used to greater effect on some adc.

its become a core item on MissFortune and Lucian who are using it to greater effect against the class it is targeted at, than bruisers themsleves.

it wouldnt be as bad if it was a situational item, but this has to stop. the cleaver changes in preseason should be reverted and they should make it slightly more expensive while adding 100 health back on.

if that doesnt work, then maybe its tme to think about adding the melee only tag to it aswell, or put some other range penalty on it, like less maximum cleaver stacks for ranged champions. (only 20% armor shred tops for them)

imagine the outcry if certain assassins would build adc items like item 3031 to increase their burst and sustained damage and carry harder than adc.

Neither one of those champions are a problem right now, stop crying about shit that doesn't matter.

Wind Whistler1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgWnIF1E,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-08-17T21:34:44.457+0000)

if that doesnt work, then maybe its tme to think about adding the melee only tag to it aswell, or put some other range penalty on it, like less maximum cleaver stacks for ranged champions. (only 20% armor shred tops for them)

Would your idea also apply to Gnar ? : (

Enosetc4 votes

too many season five fantasies of gragas and sejuani 1v5ing teams at 6 items back when cinderhulk was op

that was the exception, not the norm

Cremepie2 votes

Personally I just hate how cheap last whisper is, 1300 gold and you make most armor irrelevant. It should be at least twice this price.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

Personally I just hate how cheap last whisper is, 1300 gold and you make most armor irrelevant. It should be at least twice this price.

Tbh, that's not a big deal. It's cheap because it only works vs bonus armor and it requires you to have quite a bit of AD for you to even put a dent in armor tanks before buying it.

Pope Glitterhoof1 votes

Do you know the difference between bonus armor and total armor?

DunkinNoobs2 votes

Good ol HateDaddy, the lone voice of reason in the abyss known as Gameplay.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Thank you, these tank mains qqing about dying in 2 seconds is fcking stupid.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

neither they should be dying immediately after they initiate.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

neither they should be dying immediately after they initiate.

They're not unless you're going in 1v5 without anyone to follow up

MunchCrunchLunch4 votes

what gives. whats the point of not focusing a tank in a team fight if they die immediately anyway. there is too much damage in the game

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

what gives. whats the point of not focusing a tank in a team fight if they die immediately anyway. there is too much damage in the game

Because it requires 5 champions to blow significant cooldowns on one champion? That's why nobody blows their entire load on a tank.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

{quoted}

Because it requires 5 champions to blow significant cooldowns on one champion? That's why nobody blows their entire load on a tank.

Unless the tank is so far ahead they can do this without significant retaliation from the damage dealers.

GarthBrooksIV1 votes

you could just play a good adc like ashe and not worry about it

MagicFlyingLlama1 votes

Meanwhile tanks are QQing even harder about how ADcs threeshot them lategame with 75% armor pen and true damage.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile tanks are QQing even harder about how ADcs threeshot them lategame with 75% armor pen and true damage.

literally what

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

{quoted}

literally what

thread yesterday was crying as an ADC about how garen is op and can one shot him. so i get confused with all the different post, are tanks broken or not broken. cuz another post was about how a malphite vs an all ad team with 350+ armor died in 3 seconds.

but what if the tank is Zac with item 3026 and a Zilean Kayle on his team ? is he unkillable then?

Calabok1 votes

Mages should easily destroy tanks, alas, we cannot

Ralanr2 votes

...why? Magee are burst.

Critmaster Garen10 votes

{quoted}

Mages should easily destroy tanks, alas, we cannot

if mages and adc can easily destroy tanks, then it makes usually 2 to 3 members on the enemy team who can do that.

who are tanks supposed to tank then? the enemy support? the other tank? why even take one along, if he gets shredded anyways?

yes, tanks contribute to a large part with their utility, but a shitload of their power budget is in their defenses. when those are worthless, so are tanks.

youd just replace them with another mage whos also able to inititate and contribute with utility, but also brings a load of damage.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

Mages should easily destroy tanks, alas, we cannot

Mages jobs are not to just kill targets, they offer utility too and their goal isn't to burst a tank. If you want to do damage to tanks, item 3135 exists and it's pretty good at cutting through MR. It just depends on the Mage then and whether or not they're burst with longer cooldowns or relatively high damage but mostly sustained damage mages. Cuz trust me, a Azir Cassiopeia Ryze with item 3135 fucking hurt.

Calabok1 votes

{quoted}

Mages jobs are not to just kill targets, they offer utility too and their goal isn't to burst a tank. If you want to do damage to tanks, item 3135 exists and it's pretty good at cutting through MR. It just depends on the Mage then and whether or not they're burst with longer cooldowns or relatively high damage but mostly sustained damage mages. Cuz trust me, a Azir Cassiopeia Ryze with item 3135 fucking hurt.

That item aint good enough, we need more cheaper items

Critmaster Garen8 votes

{quoted}

That item aint good enough, we need more cheaper items

no you dont. mr is scarce in this game, and values much lower than armor, so naturally you dont have as much magic pen available.

plus, they JUST nerfed mr items significantly with the mage update. banshees lost 200 hp, and spirit visage 25 mr.

on top of that, those ap carries who deal sustained magic damage Zyra Malzahar Cassiopeia Azir are nowhere near struggling in doing so.

they had to hit azir with a massive nerf train to get him under control in high ranked games.

Attticus Finch1 votes

Good post friend; I have some good news for you!

There are no tanks that are unkillable late-game.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

List of Black Cleaver-reliant fighters who are doing at least fine despite the item being used on two ADCs:

Darius Illaoi JarvanIV Olaf Pantheon Renekton Riven MonkeyKing

Idk where this "ADCs using the item is pushing bruisers and juggernauts out of their niche" thing is coming from.

Garen isn't bad because the big mean ADCs are taking Black Cleaver away from him. He's bad because his rework did nothing to actually fix his shitty kit and instead gave him a terribly-designed crutch in the form of the Villain mechanic. Also Rylai's spam may be a factor.

LordGeovanni1 votes

except that durability spike never happens because defense is worse than damage tanks are slow low damage and melee while adcs are ranged safe faster than you and have lifesteal. Armor pen is first build on items on the other hand abyssals is second item for most mages. carries have an easier time farming because they are ranged in most cases and have lots of damage to make it easier farming defensive items dont do that so you end up loseing shit ton of farm to towers or if you leave tower range get poked by your opponent while tanking minions tanks should not be unkillable but 1 person should not be able to quickly kill a tank that is supposed to be in the front of teams that means takeing damage from 5 champions and still being able to stand and do something back and it needs to be done in a way where people dont completely ignore you then focus you down afterward when all your teammates are dead. tanks are only so bad because carries that used to have to build at least one defense item stopped building them then started crying about how they were dieing very fast (wonder what no defenses would have to do with that) so in response riot raised damage and lowered defensive items over all

Endrai1 votes

Personally, I think most of the problems regarding damage stems from the sheer amount of Lifesteal ADC's get in the latter portions of the game.

A tank can take a good hit but then has to wait and heal, on the other hand an ADC does not once they reach critical mass.

Because of this mages and assassins MUST be able to 1 shot ADC's, else the ADC will simply heal back up to full without a problem.

Because of this damage, tanks get burst out far too easily.

Because of this burst, 'tanks' are required to deal more damage to create real threat.

And finally, because of this damage, ADC's need Lifesteal to be able to effectively kill tanks.

If ADC's did not have yes amounts of Lifesteal: mages would not need stupid damage numbers to 1 shot them, tanks would actually survive being burst, the stupid damage numbers on juggernaut items could be lowered, and the problem that Riot states is caused by Spellvamp items can be similarly diminished from Lifesteal.

Cyromo1 votes

Besides really Illaoi I really don't think any champion late game is un-killable. While I say Illaoi is un-killable thats just if she knows how to use her abilities to the max potential.

ForgiveColour1 votes

If you made a thread about how tanks are dying too fast you would have over 100 upvotes. Quite sad how the bronze circlejerk is ruining gameplay board

BeMyFriendPlease1 votes

Only damage dealers should win lategames noobs listen to the op because thats how balance works.

And by damage dealers i mean assassins and adcs

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