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A letter to Rito from someone who usually sides with Rito about gameplay.

Skorch··54 votes·2,610 views

Not gonna lie... I defend Riot... A LOT. Probably because I find the boards overly witch-hunting... A LOT. That aside I decided to try my best to compile a list of issues for Riot to consider in upcoming patches. Most of these they already are probably working on since 8.2 is in full work, but eh.

Top Lane: People are upset at the tank only top lane. With Juggernauts and Fighters heavily outclassed. Now personally I think that it MIGHT not be 100% on runes. With a bit of changes on who they are fighting I think Fighters like Fiora and Renek might really like Press The Attack, or at the very least it can be SLIGHTLY changed to be liked by both ranged and fighters like Fervor was. Maybe change instead of a flat further damage buff maybe something to assist in quick trades? And for Juggernauts I can see them taking Grasp if it did just a BIT more in the offensive department, which it should since it is the ONLY offense keystone in resolve (Well aftershock but that is more of a benefit of CC than flat damage) And also maybe giving a price reduction to Triforce. And maybe -100g on Phage and BC? maybe a small upgrade to the stats on Steraks? IDK These are just ideas. I would also mention specific champions but raw statistics say way more than I need to speak about.

Mid Lane: Honestly im happy with Mid but from what I hear ManaFlowBand might be a bit strong.

Jungle: Honestly I dont really hear any complaints about JG right now.

Bot Lane: Alright this is the big thing Rito........ NERF ADC ITEM GOLD. I think that, what, 20 patches ago or so it was a deserved buff, ADCs back then were struggling, people seem to think their current strength takes that away from them or that they deserve being dumpstered. But back then it was indeed deserved. Now though? Not at all. I think that the Zeal items need a cost increase for sure. "What is to stop the same thing from happening again?" Well the current support changes (while taking the 3 actives away) Allows Supports to start getting actual items much faster... Which hopefully would be enough to protect the ADC enough to survive these situations. But ADCs are getting items much to fast for being ADCs and I think a gold nerf is now deserved.

So yeah thats my 2 cents on what should be looked at in upcoming patches. Did I miss something? IDK.

61 Comments

Who is Taliyah11 votes

What about the overall damagecreep.

Tanks dealing more damage than actual carries is pretty disgusting. Non assassins or non burst mages being able to kill others faster than assassins and burst mages shouldn't be a thing either.

Nyarlathοtep8 votes

Tanks dealing more damage than actual carries is pretty disgusting.

Which is untrue? I mean unless the carries have fallen behind, they will always end up dealing more dmg.

Who is Taliyah5 votes

https://image.prntscr.com/image/x6g9f5_BRVSQvOT325C99A.png https://image.prntscr.com/image/FhIGu1oSRX6nwARhvxeRXA.png

Don't really see ornn building damage there.

Verxint8 votes

Given those total damage numbers, that looks like a short game in which case Vayne shouldn't have accumulated a lot of damage since she hadn't scaled, her enemies don't have a lot of HP for silver bolts, and she probably spent most of her time farming while Ornn was busy belching fire on Graves every 10 seconds or so. If Vayne had out damaged Ornn in this situation, she would be way too strong.

Also since it's a Vayne I would not be surprised if they simply played like a moron all game and got carried.

TehNACHO19 votes

As always, context is king.

An 11/0/2 Ornn would probably dumpster a 0/6/4 Vayne in end game stats.

AirKingNeo2 votes

also, tanks deal percent HP damage and fight other tanks, which means their damage graph is going to be a lot higher because they're fighting targets with more HP and deal percent HP damage.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Also gotta consider that top lane is sometimes just nonstop trading, which makes their endgame damage dealt stat skyrocket while not necessarily doing all that much in teamfights.

Nyarlathοtep3 votes

What TEHNACHO said. Context. Vayne might have been dead half of the game.

SanKakU3 votes

Ornn's MR and armor boost the damage of his E(the dash ability) only. He probably landed a lot of stuns.

Also, his other abilities/attacks/item wouldn't deal so much damage if the opponents bothered to buy resistance items.

Crusader42131 votes

So, a carry has to buy resistance items to protect himself from the enemy tank? And the tank buys resistance items to 1 shot the carry? Totally balanced now that I see it in the right context.

SanKakU1 votes

Well, it's not like item 3156 item 3139 item 3091 item 3025 item 3026 item 3742 defensive items that provide physical damage at the same time don't exist.

Glamorous Rammus1 votes

Deadman's is a shitty example.. it really does nothing for your damage.

SanKakU1 votes

Wit's End and IBG don't give AD either, the game isn't all about buying just the items that scale with your abilities for damage.

Crusader42131 votes

Nah, totally true in a lot of cases. Tanks can burst your carry out way before your carry can do anything, so how is a carry supposed to outdamage a tank that takes low amounts of damage because of tank stats and does huge amounts of damage because of broken runes/overtuning? Can't really damage a tank until you have 3+ items

Nyarlathοtep1 votes

tanks can burst your carry out way before your carry can do anything

Good, carries need to take time to scale.

so how is a carry supposed to outdamage a tank that takes low amounts of damage because of tank stats and does huge amounts of damage because of broken runes/overtuning

cant speak about runes, but generally carries are supposed to be useless until late game where they outdamage almost everyone.

Can't really damage a tank until you have 3+ items

And thats why tanks are at their strongest at mid game and not late game.

Fairyfleur1 votes

Maybe in a few off-games tanks will out-damage a carry but if you compare their stats from every game I doubt someone like Sejuani will have higher overall damage compared to someone like Ashe.

Violet Fields1 votes

{quoted}

Tanks dealing more damage than actual carries is pretty disgusting.

This reminds me so much of Mists of Pandaria, start Protection Warrior, Shield Slam deals 2000 base damage at level 10.

Durzaka1 votes

idk about end game, but while leveling tanks still deal a metric fuck ton of damage compared to DPS.

Leveling a monk right now, and 90% of the time I am top dps even on single target fights, and im up to lvl 92.

woodvsmurph6 votes

Base damage on tanks is overly generous. Aftershock just amplifies this a ton - it basically matches electrocute at level 1 while also giving you strong resistances. Tanks are the only ones who can deal with ranged harass effectively. So that's why bruisers and fighters were largely crowded out. The only alternative is full damage champs like gp. Due to stuff like pta, aa champs can also nearly match the burst of a caster-based champ in the EARLY game when the caster-based champ should be stronger by far. But of course, Riot has decided lately that they don't like champs bullying hard early (renekton, leona, etc.). Meanwhile, hyperscaling champs are allowed to match or nearly match the power of a early game champ in the early game while scaling to the point they bully 5x as hard as they should be getting bullied early if the lane bully champ were allowed to properly do their job? Ex: taric vs leona (close battle early, taric almost matches the cc and makes team way more unkillable mid/late). Also individual durability of the champs. How is this ok? Ex: renekton vs gp, jax, fiora. So, the latter 3 can all duel with renekton early game if they aren't complete idiots about it. Miss a few cs, nothing to put them way behind. Even kill renekton if he makes a mistake or in some cases simply doesn't outplay. But can this be flipped mid/late game? Can renekton do the same thing to a fiora, jax, or gp who messes up? In your dreams. This - this inequality is what pisses people off. Let early game bullies be early game bullies. And if you won't allow that, then give them comparable scaling.

Slythion6 votes

Mid lane has a lot of class issues and hypocrisy (especially with assassins), terrible item itemization for mages that also leads to terrible effectiveness for mages. It's not as big of an issue as top or bot lane, but it's far from perfect. Just felt like that was a flaw in your post that I could voice an opinion on.

iDarkWind3 votes

Stop pretending that in the mid lane mages are performing bad when they have the highest win rate on mid lane and have been meta pick the last season. Whatever. Plus I never understood the problems with the itemazation. it's the fact it is quite similar to every mage? Like, so far I don't understand what's the problem exactly with the itemazation, if you could ellaborate i would be grateful.

Fairyfleur1 votes

Mages are in a fine spot meta-wise, the issue is that there is very little choice in what items you buy and that you don't have items to build for different situations like other classes do. Almost every mage buys morello as their first item with maybe liandries/ludens, sorcs, void, zhonyas/banshee, and some filler items with very little variation.

As an example, take Lux and Pre-W nerfs Leblanc . They play very differently yet bought the exact same items; there should be choices for your playstyle of mage.

Slythion5 votes

Let's not be rude for a second, I'll do my best to explain things.

Stop pretending that in the mid lane mages are performing bad when they have the highest win rate on mid lane and have been meta pick the last season.

I can see how the way I worded it makes it seem like I meant they are bad, but that's not the case. I was trying to say that mages have 0 adaptability and don't have individuality. They might perform well as a class, but they have very little effectiveness individually in comparison to eachother. I guess what I'm getting at is that they basically all play the same way and build the same way, with just different results because of theyre kits.

That's what I wanted to stress.

Plus I never understood the problems with the itemazation. it's the fact it is quite similar to every mage?

It really is. If you look at pretty much any mage, you'll see they have essentially the same exact late-game build with little deviation. It usually looks something like this:

item 3165 item 3285 item 3151 item 3135 item 3157 item 3020 with sometimes item 3089

some special shoutouts are

item 3158 item 3027

any other items like item 3116 item 3152 are only built by specific champions or in very specific matchups. There are literally 4-5 core items for almost all mages, with very little adaptability.

Every other class of champions generally has 3ish core items have have much better alternative choices.

iDarkWind1 votes

Alright, but it isn't a problem that only mages have at all. If you look at Assasins class(AD), you will notice that the case isn't very different. The build usually is: item 3147 item 3142 item 3071 item 3035 item 3814 / item 3026 item 3047 / item 3111

And only 3 of those items are really assasins items, plus they suffer from the fact that they can be abused by marksmen and for that reason they have been nerfed over and over again. If that wasn't bad, Assasins in order to become actual Assasins, are balanced around item 3147 damage proc for god knows what reason.

You could tell me we also have this items: item 3139 item 3156 But that items are flat out garbage, and if you picked an Assasin against a team with a lot of CC, you're going to have a big bad time even if you build item 3139 , for example. In the case of Maw, it's just bad. Some players may abuse the item 3155 in the laning phase though, but at the cost of a item 3134 , wich provides much more raw damage and one shot potencial.

Look, I may have looked angry in my comment, but isn't because of you. I have a big issue with the boards because they always favour mages over anything, and I've seen a lot of ridiculous suggestions being upvoted without making any sense.

The other topic you talked about was the difference between mages. I don't think they're all equal at all, in fact I think the mages have a vast variety on their own:

Burst mages: Brand Syndra ;

Utility / Poke / Burst: Orianna (Yes, I hate her. She's a lane bully that perma pokes you, has a shield to win trades and offers a huge team fight potencial with her ulti that can one shot squishy's that have no MR items (and if she's not too much behind));

Poke: Xerath Velkoz Ziggs Especially this guy Xerath that is insanely strong at the moment, and in my opinion someone that requires so much skill to play beind so good proves that something is wrong;

CC Machines / Control mages: Lissandra Malzahar Anivia Taliyah (not sure about Taliyah

DPS: Cassiopeia Ryze

Divers: Vladimir

And there are many others. So far, in my opinion, they have a huge diversity and each one of them can do different things.

Slythion3 votes

You mention that AD assassins have a similar restriction in their item selection, but tbh pretty much all AD assassins play the same way with the same goal. It's really not a surprise that their similar kits and similar goals also cause a similar build.

I'm just gonna list the ad assassins here: Kayn Khazix Nocturne Rengar Shaco Talon Zed

vs. AP mages Ahri Anivia Annie AurelionSol Azir Brand Cassiopeia Leblanc Lissandra Lux Malzahar Orianna Ryze Syndra Taliyah TwistedFate Veigar Velkoz Viktor Vladimir Xerath Ziggs Zilean Zoe Gragas Galio

you may notice a difference haha.

All mages, whether for burst, poke, waveclear, zoning, 1v1, dps, long range or short range, trades or all ins. It doesnt matter, everyone has the same build, no matter their purpose.

The only exceptions are when a specific champion is intentionally designed to benefit from a specific item or to require and item, like: Azir + item 3115 or Anivia + item 3070

Vladimir's core build is different because his entire kit pushes him to build tank to a degree as well, not because he's a diver.

the only deviation in a mage's core build is when it's specifically implemented due to their individual kit and not due to their purpose for the team.

You have burst mages building the same as zoning mages. You have mobile mages building the same way as immobile mages.

So you comparing mages to assassins is actually an amazing point for my argument. You have an incredibly diverse class class like mages that has the very same restrictions and build diversity as a binary class like ad assassins, and that's a problem yaknow? I could also bring up the fact that when an Assassin like Rengar/Nocturn/Kayn get behind they have the option to default into a more diver-ish build to opt as a tank, Mages don't even have that option. It's generally more efficient to just keep building for their core build than to opt for item 3027 or item 3116.

iDarkWind2 votes

Danm, you made a good point right there, I kinda forgot how big the mages roast is compared to the AD Assasins, and it is a huge factor. Well played. I mean ... you kinda answeared all the points, can't really make a outcome. But you shouldn't really look at assasins like they're all same. They're different in the way they do their job, indeed I understand and agree about what you said: their main goal is always to kill their squishy target.

There's just one thing I strongly disagree. If you fall behind as an Assasin, chances are that you're going to stay irrevalant the rest of the game, and that's pretty much one of the big risks of picking an Assasin. It doesn't matter at all if you build bruiser like. Most of the AD Assasins use their bonus AD scales to stay relevant and keep doing damage. If they simply start building tankier when they're falling behind, 'they won't be anything' - They won't have enough damage, neither will have CC to help their team out or will be tankier enough to be relevant.

At the same time, I've seen very situations where mages usually that exit the laning phase 0-5, can still make a comeback, monstly due to the fact if they get positionated correctly in the team fight, they will be able to cast their spells without any risks, and most of them always have some kind of CC, wich is amazing in team fights. If they're smart enough, they also have this bad boy here item 3157 that will make the enemy divers think twice about diving them.

But yeah, you answeared pretty well. Can't say much more, I just think that people should say something like 'Mages itemazation is very binary' instead of 'It sucks'. I always tough people here were asking for buffs to their items, wich was a misunderstood because actually you all just want 'variety'. Alright.

Slythion2 votes

Maybe you're right about how assassins are different. They definitely have vastly different kits from eachother too haha, Rengar, Shaco, Zed, and pretty much every assassin has a very unique and interesting kit even if it's designed to perform the same function.

I'm so glad we could actually have a calm and reasonable discussion too haha, that's pretty rare here on the boards. It was a lot of fun man :)

iDarkWind1 votes

I feel the same. :)

Skorch1 votes

Good point, However Riot has stated that a mage item update would be a full scale midseason or preseason patch so maybe this midseason?

Slythion1 votes

That's true, but they also said diver class update would happen then it pushed back for tanks and then canceled all together.

They also keep saying Wukong will be worked on, it took an eternity for Aatrox rework to be officially scheduled, etc etc. I have little faith in what Riot says before it gets officially scheduled haha.

Don't mistake me as salty or mad though please, I'm just pointing out how things are (which is pretty difficult to do without seeming negative)

ChaddyFantome5 votes

Not gonna lie... I defend Riot... A LOT. Probably because I find the boards overly witch-hunting... A LOT

Same.

This time tho, this is just blatantly dumb on their part.

Skorch4 votes

I mean they are back now so hopefully some of the current issues will be fixed.

But like 90% of the time the boards is just looking for an excuse to bitch about Riot.

Stillname3 votes

Keep in mind that this gamestate feels so exhausting because Riot usually has a 2 week interval in between patches but at this time of year they took 2 weeks off for vacation so this stuff stays for a lot longer then it normally would.

Tokogawaruf1 votes

Also we as LoL Players are kinda spoiled by the Patches alone. I can name no other game that patches so quickly AND is so well readable. Just my 2 cents

AninLegions7773 votes

how long have you been playing this game?

Sujiren3 votes

The only issue with top I have, is items intended for bruisers and fighters, being way to expensive all above 3k (item 3748 item 3074 item 3053 item 3078 to name a few, and the armor options aren't exactly cheap eitheritem 3143 . Meanwhile majority of adc items are cheap as fuck item 3087 item 3094 item 3036 , and scale the hardest overall. Assasins are still viable for example, because item 3147 item 3142 are pretty cheap, so they can gain item advantage on adc and keep them down all game, but it's hard for bruisers to match them when their items are so expensive.

Abibyama2 votes

You forgot to mention about the game pacing which they’re working on atm

PowerSlave9932 votes

Defend Riot even tho you know what is truth? Pff never

Troll for Trump2 votes

People aren't just upset in top lane because of the meta. Top lane itself has the problem of being worthless compared to everyone else.

Skorch2 votes

People are upset fighters (Top lane carries) arent viable.

PopcornBunni2 votes

{quoted}

People are upset fighters (Top lane carries) arent viable.

[citation needed]

fighters are dominating top lane right now only three tanks of the entire cast are performing consistent up there -- Malphite Maokai Sion

Meanwhile more and more kleptomancy/comet abusing divers, juggernauts, and skirmishers are destroying tanks throughout laning while being levels ahead of them for later teamfights. Kayle Gangplank Nasus Jax Kled Illaoi Camille Olaf Pantheon Riven Rengar Jayce Fiora Yorick Aatrox Darius MonkeyKing

All in the upper 50% of toplaners -- 17 of the top 27

While 7 of the 10 tanks played top have among the worst winrates in that role: Poppy Ornn Galio Nautilus TahmKench Shen Nunu

Even being generous with the term tank to include Singed Chogath, it's still only 4 out of 12 doing well.

Fighters now not only shit on tanks thoughout the early game denying them cs for risk of the tank dying fucking instantly before they get their 3 items, but also end up setting the tanks so far behind they can't afford items needed for teamfights, while fighters enjoy the luxury of clearing a wave in a single ability cast and obliterating towers that are left alone for more than 3 seconds.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Galio, Tahm, Naut just got nerfed out of Top lane. That was Riot gutting them. Nunu... I think is self-explanatory.

Outside of Galio, those champs have not been played in top for the meta or remotely competitive a long time, and I think should be excluded from the list of "tanks" in top lane.

Shen and Poppy may have gotten nerfed a bit too hard.

Ornn is not trash. He's kinda like the Zoe for top laners.

The comet abusers are mostly limited to tanks. Of the fighters, there's just Olaf with Q spam, and Camille, who has nothing better.

Kleptomancy is a separate issue. It's being abused all over the place now.

You have to look at the high playrate fighters, otherwise you're skewing the data.

Glamorous Rammus1 votes

Alistar has amazing Top lane potential right now. Back to Season 3 Alistar powerhouse and that's the only benefit to all these trash updates.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Those consist of the majority, but an opinion I feel is shared among everyone in top lane (less so tanks) is that top lane does nothing. Even the people playing stuff like Jayce.

Elewd2 votes

the very moment you pointed out the item reductiosn for adcs was the exact moment i realized thats why there is so much damage at the moment. Needlessly large rod going from 1600 to 1250 and BF sword going from 1600 to 1300 was actually massive. all of those respective items getting 300~+ gold cheaper meant if you get a kill you are literally 500 gold away from an item spike.

Horse Grenades2 votes

Remember when BF sword was 1550? Pepperidge Farn remembers.

Skorch1 votes

Thank god thats the case. As stated I want their item costs raised, but 1600 for an component with no previous component is a HUGE investment.

KlydeFrog1 votes

Pray tell how adcs are getting items . Cost is the same as last season soooo because people can cs and get kills that's a problem? Or you can just lower the cs reward

HowAboutWeNaut1 votes

I don't know if my view is correct, but the reason why ADCs are getting items I wouldn't say quicker but is because the abuse of Relic Shield and the current Fleet Footwork runes that everyone runs to actually be relevant. That particular runes page allows ADCs to have a more sustained damage and literally makes it a game of which ADC can manage their resources better (Mana/CDs) and or who can get ganked first before the first back/death. From their it's literally just a snowball since the extended laning phase (If you can call it that) allows more accumulation of gold including any kills from it which leads to quicker power spikes after first back. From their it's simply who had the chance to maximize their itemization and whose kit ramped up quicker for example the reason why Vayne who is traditionally a late game duelist now power spikes around with just BF Sword and Static at 15-20 minutes is because of this reasoning. Honestly Riot just needs to nerf damage on ADCs plus some more (since most runes gives a more inherent gold effective boost) instead of keep increasing every other champs to match that same power overall. (Looking at those BS Brand buffs that's going to bite bot lane again in the but)

KlydeFrog1 votes

Any adc with bf sword and static does damage ...... What your saying is pretty irrelevant plus people have been using relic shield bot lane ever since relic shield was made it's not new . Also most people run aiery also fleet footwork is pretty much the exact same thing as warlords . Lastly cull does the same thing escpially with a supp who has relic shield makes you stack faster . I mean what your saying isn't new nor relevant

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