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Poll: After all this time, do you still view the Karma rework as a failure?

Koechophe··3 votes·1,232 views

The desire for "Old Karma" or "Pre-rework Karma" never seems to fade, despite how long it's been. Karma still maintains what people refer to as "circle-jerk" in response to her rework that wants it undone. So now, after more than a year since her rework, I'd like to get your guys' opinion on whether you think karma's rework was a failure and, if you would prefer old Karma back.

My thoughts: I like old Karma better, to be honest. New Karma brings absolutely 0 unique mechanics to the game, while old Karma was full of them. Her fan skill shot on her Q was fun and interesting to try and land. Her % of missing hp heal was a great clutch heal that was, in my opinion, one of the only well-balanced heals in the game. Her buddy system with spirit bond was actually really fun, and trying to get that to damage was difficult but rewarding. Mostly, though, I miss shield bombing, which is completely absent from new karma's kit. I believe old karma would be viable in the new meta, as her biggest issue was a lack of income to support her kit. Due to the increases in support money and the decreases in heal effectivity, I honestly think her rework was unnecessary.

-Note that I was not a "karma main" before, nor am I now, I just played her frequently and enjoyed her playstyle.

Please be so kind as to share your thoughts, what you do/don't like about either version and why you voted the way you did.

12 Comments

Azaer3 votes

I miss the old Karma so much still. I've conceded on plenty of reworks after a few bitter months, like Kayle and Skarner, but you pretty much described my feelings on this one. Every time I get her in an Aram I find myself about to mantra Q to heal my teammates.

Koechophe1 votes

At least Skarner still feels somewhat like skarner. His kit is very similar to the way it was before, except they shifted the slow and the attack speed around. New karma feels nothing like old karma.

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

No, Karma's rework does not need revoking.

I get tired of explaining it. The older design for Karma lacked CC (that one slow from her tether was nearly worthless until you started putting points in it at 13), and her Q was trying to do too many jobs at once. It was an AoE damage spell, but it could also heal teammates. That sounds so useful, and then...you realize that it does both in the same AoE. The same tiny cone attached to your face. The cone range was, what, 590 and 75 degrees? Sure, that's a decent AoE, but it's attached to your very squishy face. If the enemy team lets you stand right there and hurt them while healing your team--if they even managed to all stand in that AoE--then they probably deserved to lose that fight, or were so far in the lead that it didn't matter.

The shield was strong, and the shield bomb was unbelievably powerful. It had a ridiculously large AoE (600 radial, iirc) on top of being cast on an ally within (again, iirc) 700 range. You could actually nuke someone at the edge of your sight range with it, and it would deal the whole 280+80% AP damage, no questions asked. It was the majority of her kit's power.

But when your one and only contribution to a team fight is healing your teammates based on their missing HP (which would either be too early to really heal or cutting it very close if not too late) and shielding one person, I don't know about you, but I feel kind of powerless.

An important point that you entirely passed over was the Mantra change as well. Old Karma's kit felt entirely incomplete when Mantra was on cooldown. You had a mediocre damage/farming spell, a very weak tether-slow/tether-MS boost, and a shield that was at least able to block damage, but was otherwise nothing for which to sing praise to the Lotus. Yes, there were occasions with Old Karma where you wouldn't want to use a Mantra charge, but for every one of those occasions, there were likely dozens where you couldn't use one, and wished you could. Otherwise, why would people be asking for a 3rd Mantra?

Also, I just want to point out that they actually did keep Karma's shield bomb damage. 300+60% AP technically starts to lose compared to 280+80% AP after just 100 AP, but did the old Karma shield bomb shield your entire team and give you a Sivir-tier MS boost?

Koechophe2 votes

I can understand why New Karma is more viable, that's not the issue. The issue is whether she's more fun to play. They didn't really bring any unique mechanics into her kit. Q is a linear skill shot that slows. W is a tether that snares (which, by the way, the tether range is terrible). E is a shield that speeds people up. R adds very little new gameplay to either her Q and her E, and due to the fact that karma is squishy and it scales on HP, it feels lackluster if used on her W unless in the absolute right scenario. Her kit is dry and probably one of the most generic of all of them.

To address your specific points, her heal on her mantra was statistically very powerful. Consider sona's base heal of 110-165 (depending on missing hp) with an ap ratio of .2-.3, compared to karma's base heal of 135 + 10% of missing hp (plus ratio of which I am not aware). In almost every instance, karma's heal is more powerful, and can be cast on more allies. Also, you draw yourself into a bit of a contradiction, because you argue that Karma's old kit was too reliant on low ranges, yet new karma has to sit in an extremely low tether range for 2 seconds in order to get off a lot of the power in her kit (basically all of her cc).

You are also underestimating karma's teamfight contribution. She had high aoe damage on her Q and extremely reliable aoe on her E, not to mention the E shield was 280 + 80% of your ap, instead of 260 + 50, and was on a lower CD. That shield felt really good when used to soak/deal damage in teamfights. Also her W had a lot of potential in terms of teamfights. With proper positioning, you could hasten/slow several champions while dealing a significant amount of damage. Or even just throwing that on an ally is highly beneficial. Whether or not these things are powerful, Karma always had something to do with unique gameplay during teamfights.

I agree that Karma lacked in cc, which is really why she made an ineffective support. But that could've been rectified pretty easily. They could've added hard CC to her mantra'd W which would've required her to trade off either healing or damage for cc and actually made for some decent plays.

I also agree that her base abilities didn't feel impactful enough, but I feel as though this was mostly due to the 6 levels that had to be put into spells. If they would've made you level her ult and made flat values to her mantra'd effects based on ult levels, it would've been fine.

And another issue; I absolutely hate what they did with her look. I appreciated that karma was one of the only modestly-dressed female champions in the game, but Riot has to sexualize every woman champion in some way or another. Now she not only looks like she's sixteen, she's also dressed in clothes that absolutely don't fit the conservative "Ionia" image. I liked her fans and thought they were an iconic representation of her power, and there was honestly no reason for riot to remove them in place of a big giant thing on her back that has no real backstory and no real significance.

I'm not disputing that old karma was probably underpowered. I just think her kit allowed for more diversity and could've been buffed rather than absolutely scrapped. Because at the end of the day, new karma and old karma are basically completely seperate champions. They deleted Karma and replaced her with a champion of the same name.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

I find the new Karma design fun to play, personally. Partially, it's because I tend to main mages, and the playstyle isn't far removed. It's also partially because I had played the old Karma, and I rarely felt like I was making valuable contributions to a fight. Sure, I had damage, and I could keep one person alive, but Kayle also has damage and can keep someone alive. What's the difference? Less convoluted mechanics.

Old Karma was needlessly complex in the delivery of her effectiveness. To deal AoE damage that wasn't attached to her face, she had to have an allied target to use her shield on them. To slow someone, you either tethered yourself to an enemy directly (which rarely worked if they had any form of gap closer/escape/CC) or tether a target and hit them with the line (which was even more inefficient).

The heal was powerful, for sure. 135, +5% missing HP, plus an an AP ratio on the %HP instead of the flat value. I usually hit +22% missing HP end-game with over 600 AP. I really do miss the heal, but it was part of what overloaded her old kit as well.

Her tether's range is pretty short, but she has both offensive and defensive tools to keep someone in range of it. A shield, an MS burst, a slow, and if you're using Mantra, she could also have a heal that baits them into trying to strike back. Yes, the old Karma could use her shield to protect herself when getting in range for her Q, and her tether could slow someone just enough to let her get in range.

I find it interesting that you argue that the new Karma has no unique design where the old Karma did. Interestingly enough, the only mechanic from old Karma that doesn't exist on the new one is the increased AP at lower HP (and, conversely, old Karma didn't have a snare or a CD refresh on Mantra). Karma can still give her allies increased MS, she can still provide a (significantly more powerful) slow, she can still deal significant AoE damage, and she can still heal (yes, it only heals herself now. I miss healing allies too, if that makes any difference).

She has mostly the same mechanics shifted around her kit, basically.

I'll definitely agree with the atrocious model change. I understand that there had to be some visual difference, but...I could come up with a few hundred colorful metaphors.

At the end of the day, I have seen far more plays made by the new Karma than the old one, and it's not through lack of experience. The old Karma had a lot of similar numbers, similar damage and CC potential (minus the snare), and the ability to do, essentially, all the important things the new Karma can do, but the utility shifts made it more straightforward and more difficult for an opponent to invalidate your actions. It's not just easier, it's actually feasible to make plays that, thanks to player intelligence, would be nearly impossible with old Karma.

Nhifu2 votes

Karma's not bad It's just syndra and other supports are so good. :D

Koechophe2 votes

Again, the issue isn't power levels, the issue is fun and dynamics.

Uberay2 votes

Its not the question of is the old Karma bad, but more of is the NEW Karma good? Shes just so generic of a champion, its just not that fun to play

Leblancs Boob1 votes

Annie

Moulin Rouge1 votes

Yes and No. They tried to make her a mid lane burst mage who can support and...quite frankly she's still a support 100%. She has huge flaws with going in mid lane, which sucks because up until a certain point, I enjoyed playing her there. But then I saw her flaws and stopped. :/

Lights And Magic1 votes

I personally love new Karma.

Mathbalnase1 votes

I like New Karma. Then again, I never played Old Karma. I'd be really sad if New Karma went away, but I would not object to Old Karma returning so long as she didn't displace New Karma.

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