So it isn't OK for you to flash during Dragon's Rage animation to change kick direction

Zero Skill Tank·Dec 1, 2016·126 votes·4,736 views

But it is OK for Lee Song himself to do so, just in case you would be able to outflash him if he needed to flash first.

Sounds about fair.

98 Comments

Harry DresdenDec 1, 201639 votes

And that mini-stun before it connects is totally fair too.

AstôlfoDec 1, 201617 votes

What mini-stun? It's a 0.25 second root EXCLUSIVELY for the purpose of visual clarity and logic. His kick is still a targeted point-and-click. You would get kicked either way. It's just his animation takes a lot longer than most other knockbacks. AKA, it would look weird as hell if someone just walked out before his animation even finished. TotalJerk's post explains the exact same thing.

But yes, one should be able to Flash away from his kick to change the direction.

DreadlocksDec 2, 20161 votes

If he ward hops behind you, you have time to flash which would then send you in the opposite direction that hes trying to kick you. Happens all the time.

nm1010Dec 2, 20162 votes

Good lees will r flash to root you then change the direction of the kick, this prevents you from flashing once it starts due to the root happening as soon as he is in range. This means you either have to flash pre-kick (letting him keep ult and flash) or you can't flash at all (not sure if you still can qss the root to flash during the ult but that was/is possible if you have qss).

DreadlocksDec 2, 20161 votes

Flash has a long cooldown, wards do not. So while his flash is down, he will be using wards.

nm1010Dec 2, 20163 votes

So a nearly uncounterable play every 5 minutes is ok for game health?

DreadlocksDec 2, 20162 votes

Annie summoner 4 I guess?

nm1010Dec 2, 20162 votes

Tibbers isn't a displacement that puts you in the middle of the enemy team and you can flash it with fast reactions, lee's is literally nonflashable unless you use it before he ults. You can't compare apples to oranges :P If you want apples to apples Blitzcrank isn't able to flash after starting his pull to change where you are going, why should lee be able to?

DreadlocksDec 2, 20161 votes

But the argument is "uncounterable play every 5 mins"

nm1010Dec 2, 20162 votes

You seem to have an issue understanding the context of the uncounterable play. 1 of them puts you into the middle of the enemy team (and can work vs banshees), the other is a burst combo with a stun that you can buy one defensive item to survive.

Yes Annie has an uncounterable aspect of her kit, but it is the context that makes it fair. Riot has said the same thing when they decided to keep her instant flash ult after the mage update.

DreadlocksDec 2, 20161 votes

Doesn't matter what actions are being done. It is still uncounterable. And if Riot thought that it was unfair that lee sin could do that, it would have been removed. I understand a lot of ppl have a passionate hate for lee sin, but your argument is not any more valid than mine.

nm1010Dec 2, 20162 votes

I mean if you ignore all context actions don't matter I guess, lee probably won't recieve any meaningful nerfs after the level 3 cheese is removed (maybe an r cd nerf).

It isn't hate for lee that makes me understand that his r flash is unhealthy for the game (tbh since I play morgana lee is actually just a free win in most of my games) it is the fact that it goes against everything riot preaches in their ideal balance scenarios.

The reason it won't be removed is because it looks cool in the lcs and 70% of the playerbase won't ever even see this interaction. Or they are lazy not sure exactly which one, but after they let an Orianna game breaking bug sit on live for 8 months I always keep the lazy option on the table.

DreadlocksDec 3, 20161 votes

I mean, considering how hard lee sin falls off late game, this is at least 1 tool to help keep him relevant. just my 2c.

Mighty MorteinDec 2, 20161 votes

It is totally possible. I had a game where every time I was engaging as the tank, Lee would try to kick me into my team, but whenever my flash was up, I'd flash to the side, completely changing the direction of his kick and saving my teammates from being half healthed.

Serika ZeroDec 2, 20168 votes

you need to flash before that 0.2sec or whatever root/stun happens rito still are assholes for giving lee soooooooooooooo much love. Its as its lee is fucking them daily and if he goes out of meta for more than 3 months, they get thirsty for the Lee D.

TheorcheroDec 2, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KbhQQjj7,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2016-12-02T10:17:10.189+0000)

you need to flash before that 0.2sec or whatever root/stun happens rito still are assholes for giving lee soooooooooooooo much love. Its as its lee is fucking them daily and if he goes out of meta for more than 3 months, they get thirsty for the Lee D.

"Thirsty for the Lee D" - Serika Zero.

Stealing this.

TotalJerkDec 1, 201617 votes

Actually you can flash out if you QSS first, same for when you're actually in the air. The root is specifically there so that the kick doesn't have to be instant. If his kick was instant it would be broken combined with Lee Sin's mobility, and if you could flash the animation his only form of hard CC would be useless.

Also, why is it wrong that Lee Sin can flash during the animation, but it isn't that Leona and Gragas can Flash E, and Annie can flash her ult animation? Flashing during the windup of a spell isn't something unique to him. I understand that Lee Sin is strong, but we needn't think every single aspect of him is unfair. IMO the problem is that his ult cooldown is too low and that he clears the current jungle too fast.

IcyPepperDec 1, 201622 votes

Also, why is it wrong that Lee Sin can flash during the animation,

I don't think the problem is Lee being able to flash, but not allowing other players to flash out of it is the problem. Allowing him to do it (to change the kick direction, specifically) but not other players feels unfair, because no matter what you're still going to be hit by the spell, but you should have the same capability of outplaying Lee as he does to you.

If it were just a root and stun, it'd be one thing, but that knockback is powerful and should be able to be played around if Lee can play around with it with flash instead of relying solely on positioning (like his victim has to). One or the other is what people are saying.

TwinkieProDec 2, 20162 votes

There are a lot of skills you can't flash. Vi ult is the worst offender, once targeted, the only point of flashing is hoping her team doesn't catch up with her. You also can't flash a volibear or singed fling. It's near impossible to flash a shen taunt flash or gragas E>flash, and they provide even less counterplay. Yet somehow people think its still ok. Galio taunt, once inside the circle, will make you useless 80% of the time. You can't sidestep a nocturne ult. Tryndamere presses R and literally makes it pointless to continue fighting. Twisted fate yellow card unless you are jax. Morde ult cannot be cleansed, and with rylais, perma slows you for quite a while.

All of these and more require you to predict them, and in all of them, flashing just creates distance, rather than actually stopping them. why is a champ who uses 2 basic skills, an ult and a flash considered unfair? when all he is doing is diving you to kick you into his team? Once he does all that, he has nothing to get out with.

IcyPepperDec 2, 20165 votes

There are a lot of skills you can't flash. Vi ult is the worst offender, once targeted, the only point of flashing is hoping her team doesn't catch up with her. You also can't flash a volibear or singed fling.

I feel like you didn't read what I typed, or what people are saying.

We don't want to flash out of their abilities, that's impossible, we want to flash to be able to re-position ourselves.

Vi ult is the worst offender, once targeted, the only point of flashing is hoping her team doesn't catch up with her.

We basically want something like that for Lee Sin.

All of these and more require you to predict them, and in all of them, flashing just creates distance, rather than actually stopping them.

Nobody in their right mind is saying we should be able to completely stop Lee Sin's ult. That's not the issue at all.

Zero Skill TankDec 1, 201615 votes

All the abilities you pointed out can be flashed to avoid them or reduce their impact, so it is very much OK for them to also be allowed to be improved with flash. It is very much unfair that Lee can use his flash to improve impact of his ult, while his target can't use their flash do reduce this impact.

If the root is needed there, Lee should be rooted during the animation as well, so that if he wan't to use flash to redirect his ult, he needs to do this before he casts ult, giving his target possibility to trade flash-for-flash with quick reaction time. Like every ability in the game does.

TotalJerkDec 1, 20168 votes

One does not simply flash an Annie ult.

Sraeg2013Dec 1, 20167 votes

You can actually Flash it after MYMU.

There is like 0.1s window to do so, but it's something, right?

AstôlfoDec 1, 20166 votes

Yes because people can perceive, react and take action in 0.1 seconds.

Sraeg2013Dec 1, 20168 votes

What a nice, polite and helpful individual... said no one ever.

I just informed that now you can. Damage and stun is checked the moment Tibbers appears, instead of the moment Annie pressed the button, like it used to be before MYMU.

Yes, in most cases people just end up Flashing the moment they get in Annie's range with her intending to ult them. No need to be so snarky about it.

Bushy ÞussyDec 2, 20163 votes

{quoted}

What a nice, polite and helpful individual... said no one ever.

I just informed, that now you can. Damage and stun is checked the moment Tibbers appears, instead of the moment Annie pressed the button, like it used to be before MYMU.

Yes, in most cases people just end up Flashing the moment they get in Annie's range with her intending to ult her. No need to be so snarky about it.

? You input buffer Annie ult like non monkey players do (Tibbers -> Flash) so your opponent needs to have inhuman reaction time to flash out before getting stunned.

https://youtu.be/c35KhkTw2TY?t=1m11s

if you have the reaction time to dodge that (hint: you don't), you can VERY easily flash out before Lee Sin roots you.

You could play like normal people do and stand back when Annie has Flash + Ult and treat Lee Sin with the same respect.

SteelflameDec 2, 20161 votes

The difference is Lee's effective range vs many other people's effective range. Lee has something like 1500 units of dash, to Annie only having about 500-600 units of ult range. Flash doesn't increase lee's effective dash, but lets him redirect (Although it does also increase effective dash he so chooses, but at a weaker impact generally).

Flash brings Annie to just around 1000 range effective threat, while Lee sin was already sitting at 1500+. Lee also has the advantages of having what is effectively ground targetted mobility and the fact he is the jungler, making it very hard to punish Lee Sin for having his flash down, while Annie has to sit in lane for 5 minutes flashless.

Bushy ÞussyDec 2, 20163 votes

And the difference is that Lee Sin needs to land his Q to have "1500+ range", which also telegraphs his next move. If Lee sees that his target is out of position and landed a Q near the target, it's very obvious what he will try to do next and you have time to react accordingly.

And Landing a Q is not the same thing as landing an Annie ult. It's much easier to land an Annie ult because of the hitbox and amount of time given to opponents to react, especially when it's input buffered ahead of time.

SteelflameDec 2, 20162 votes

While it lacks the Annie combo's reliability, it makes up for it in potential range. Similar idea to Ashe ult, it has insane range, but if used at long range, it is far less reliable.

And still, regardless of anything else, you can PUNISH Annie while her flash is down, and her initiation power practically zeros out for 5 minutes. Lee sin not so much, it loses a lot of the freedom to redirect it at will if used at max range, but still he comes with a tier 2 base movement speed and damage, and still can potentially force himself behind you with his ward jump.

Bushy ÞussyDec 2, 20162 votes

{quoted}

While it lacks the Annie combo's reliability, it makes up for it in potential range. Similar idea to Ashe ult, it has insane range, but if used at long range, it is far less reliable.

And still, regardless of anything else, you can PUNISH Annie while her flash is down, and her initiation power practically zeros out for 5 minutes. Lee sin not so much, it loses a lot of the freedom to redirect it at will if used at max range, but still he comes with a tier 2 base movement speed and damage, and still can potentially force himself behind you with his ward jump.

It doesn't just stop at reliability, because Annie's "combo" is far better for 100-0 than Lee Sin's is, unless Lee Sin is insanely ahead. Sure Q after R does damage to squishies, but let's not pretend it's even close to Annie's nuke. You could argue that Lee Sin can cause more damage than Annie by kicking a champion into his team, but that's probably at the cost of his own life because his escapes were used to do so, while being in close range with the enemy team.

There are too many hypotheticals in your next part - what if Annie has CDR boots + Mastery to lower Flash CD? What if Annie has Protobelt? What if Lee Sin used his two wards from his jungle item and doesn't have a trinket ward? What if the enemy team has better ward coverage because Lee didn't swap out his trinket ward for a sweeper? What if Lee is playing against Soraka/Janna?

TwinkieProDec 2, 20161 votes

Galio Evelynn Karthus Nocturne Skarner Syndra Teemo Veigar Warwick Yasuo

Good luck flashing any of these.

XilixerDec 1, 20164 votes

{quoted}

IMO the problem is that his ult cooldown is too low

this

ModAcademy KaynDec 1, 20162 votes

This isn't something exclusive to Lee Sin. There are plenty of videos of people flashing during an abilities animation, (ex flashing while casting Ahri's Charm), allowing them to use the ability from that position instead.

Spaceman5pffDec 1, 201613 votes

The problem isn't that lee gets to flash, but rather than his target CANNOT due to the root he applies to them during the windup.

You can still flash away from Ahri Charm.

A better comparison is Vi Ult. As Vi is bumrushing you with her ult, you can quickly jump / flash / whatever else to a safer position. YES YOU STILL GET VI ULTED, but you put yourself in a safer position post-ult where maybe her team can't follow up / your team can protect you.

You should be able to do the same with Lee ult. You should be able to flash reactively to get a safer angle post-kick, rather than being at the mercy of one of the shorter CD ults in the game (especially with how abundant CDR is in Lee's items item 1408 item 3071 item 3156 ) YES YOU STILL GET KICKED, but you can outplay it if you react quickly.

SwaggyMcGhee420Dec 2, 20162 votes

Do you know how bad his ult would be if you could move or flash during the cast time? You would be able to walk to the side or behind him and completely redirect the direction you get kicked.

Spaceman5pffDec 2, 20168 votes

Right!? HEAVEN FORBID a champion have counterplay.

Gosh, imagine if we could compensate lee for the loss of the root with a slightly faster cast time or something. Too bad we can't right?

SwaggyMcGhee420Dec 2, 20162 votes

Then you're not accomplishing anything. The root is only there to deal with the cast time.

And I guess the time it takes for Lee to fly in so that he can actually kick flash isn't enough time for you to flash away?

Spaceman5pffDec 2, 20164 votes

Right, but if the root is there to deal with cast time + I can't react during it = why not just make it a faster cast time?

Lee mains have NO COMPLAINTS when their difficult champion gets buffs to make him easier + safer, but when people want him to be JUST SLIGHTLY easier to play against, they lose their minds.

If you wan't to defend your champion as being difficult, then let him be difficult, stop BEING difficult yourself.

SwaggyMcGhee420Dec 2, 20161 votes

Removing the cast time would be a buff.

Also, I don't play much Lee, I'm just tired of people complaining about a champ with sub-50% winrate just because he's popular.

Spaceman5pffDec 2, 20162 votes

I don't give a damn that he is popular. I dislike that he is both unfun to play vs AND viable.

Also, winrate is more or less a pointless argument regarding lee. He is a difficult champion, and when you combine that with popularity the inexperienced / shitty players bog that down pretty hard.

Winrate is almost always a pointless argument outside of Pro play. Many champions, especially difficult + snowball champions are poorly represented by winrate such as (but not limited to) Azir Katarina LeeSin Nidalee

SwaggyMcGhee420Dec 2, 20161 votes

You could make the argument that any champ is unfun to play against. I don't understand how winrate is ever irrelevant when talking about a champions balance, unless there isn't a large enough sample size of games (which is a problem when looking at pro play, because they don't play thousands of games, and therefore aren't able to reliably reflect a champion's strength).

Spaceman5pffDec 2, 20161 votes

You make a good point about pro play, P/B stats are likely more valuable in that context.

SwaggyMcGhee420Dec 2, 20161 votes

Yeah, the bigger sample sizes are more reliable.

Bushy ÞussyDec 2, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Right!? HEAVEN FORBID a champion have counterplay.

Gosh, imagine if we could compensate lee for the loss of the root with a slightly faster cast time or something. Too bad we can't right?

/s

Except there is counterplay

You can preemptively flash if you know lee has flash and ult up. There is plenty of time to do this before he roots, because it's the time it takes for his second Q to land or for him to ward jump into range. You'll likely trade flashes in this case if Lee wasn't expecting you to flash before him.

Or you buy a qss and reactively cleanse+flash (or if you have a spell that can displaces you like Ezreal's E you don't need to flash) out to safety after he kicks you. You are gauranteed to trade flashes here.

gosh no counterplay though 100% uncounterable

Spaceman5pffDec 2, 20161 votes

Actually, for many players, ping means that they are technically incapable of QSS + flashing the lee ult. The server response times are just too long.

ShahamutDec 2, 20162 votes

That... was a terrible counter argument...

ShahamutDec 2, 20161 votes

Tell ya what, I will go for this, remove the root. But then also remove the cast time for the kick. Fair?

Spaceman5pffDec 2, 20161 votes

I've actually been arguing for a reduction in cast time in exchange for ditching the root.

Absolutely 0 cast time might be a bit busted, since then you can't flash it reactively. It would actually be a net buff to lee, since his kick would still be impossible to react to (untill you were already displaced), while also making the effect take less time.

Not sure if you think I am stupid or if you are just trolling, but for your sake I will assume the latter.

ShahamutDec 3, 20161 votes

Not sure if you think I am stupid or if you are just trolling

Neither I can assure you. Your specific argument was entailed in being rooted while he flashed behind you to change the direction of the kick.

Making the kick instant means he cant pre-cast it, he has to flash then kick. This would give you the time you desire to react, but also let the combo still flow smoothly.

I mention it because, in my mind anyway, that would be the only way to make the insec still doable. Unfortunately, this would, as you said, mean a net buff for Lee in other situations. Anything less though would simply mean the insec only works if the opponent's flash isn't up.