Probably an unpopular opinion..:Shen

Dreadlocks·Jan 14, 2016·43 votes·2,902 views

But i'm going to miss old Shen.. The range on Q, the deceiving duel power with the heal, and then the "random burst" on his passive. I like having that bit of range, I like the 220 base dmg...

New Shen is alright.. But i don't like him more than current Shen by any means. He's 100% melee, and he lost damage that he already lacked..

Don't get me wrong, the VU is pretty awesome, i like that he has some HP scalings now instead of all AP, but hes just not what i was lookin forward too.

115 Comments

SeekêrJan 14, 201617 votes

Definitely did NOT lose damage. You build titanic hydra then build full tank and you can very quickly 100-0 carries before your taunt even expires. He permanently has his q up. the cd goes down each point. He also gets attack speed which makes those %max hp attacks come out faster.

This is coming from PBE, I've played about 6 games as him now. He lost some early burst and sustain but he became MUCH more reliable as the game progresses and that attack speed steroid is insane for early dueling.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20162 votes

I played a couple myself, I personally felt his dmg was much less, u can't rly use titanic as a justifier when he can utilize it on live still as well. For a long time I felt like I did not dmg on shen, I'd often take ignite to compensiate, but now that I've played him a lot, even my friends are like how the fuck are u killing ppl top lane so easily...

SatansteinJan 14, 20164 votes

Shen has no base damage on his Q. I don't know how to even feel about that. If you land it through a champion you're hitting as hard as a level 5 Q. I mean you start to think it's pretty okay magic damage but if I get 100MR total that's reducing this down to only 2.5% per hit, 3.5% if you land it through an enemy.

Twilight Assault (Q) 140/130/120/110/100 Energy 8/7.25/6.5/5.75/5 sec Cooldown Shen recalls his spirit blade and draws it. Enemies it collides with are slowed by 35% when moving away from Shen for the next 2 seconds. Shen's next 3 attacks deal 3/3.5/4/4.5/5% (+ ~1.5% per 100 AP ) of their target's max health as bonus magic damage. If the spirit blade collided with an enemy champion, those attacks deal 5/5.5/6/6.5/7% (+ ~2% per 100 AP) instead and have +50% Attack Speed.
Minions and monsters take an extra 30/50/70/90/110 bonus damage per attack.

KingsgraveJan 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Shen has no base damage on his Q. I don't know how to even feel about that. If you land it through a champion you're hitting as hard as a level 5 Q. I mean you start to think it's pretty okay magic damage but if I get 100MR total that's reducing this down to only 2.5% per hit, 3.5% if you land it through an enemy.

Twilight Assault (Q) 140/130/120/110/100 Energy 8/7.25/6.5/5.75/5 sec Cooldown Shen recalls his spirit blade and draws it. Enemies it collides with are slowed by 35% when moving away from Shen for the next 2 seconds. Shen's next 3 attacks deal 3/3.5/4/4.5/5% (+ ~1.5% per 100 AP ) of their target's max health as bonus magic damage. If the spirit blade collided with an enemy champion, those attacks deal 5/5.5/6/6.5/7% (+ ~2% per 100 AP) instead and have +50% Attack Speed.
Minions and monsters take an extra 30/50/70/90/110 bonus damage per attack.

Q is up just as often, has a slow, and generally fucks people up way more often than his old Q did.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20167 votes

Shen doesn't need more CC, his Taunt is enough..the thing Shen lacked was damage, and the little damage he did have is being taken away. His E does about the same damage as before, He no longer has damage on his passive, and they took away 220 base dmg on his Q and put all of it into some 5-7% max hp 3x auto attacks. I dont think a situational 35% slow makes up for that, and i definitely dont think increasing the Max HP damage is a healthy way to go in terms of giving him more damage if they decide to.

doombotMECHAJan 14, 20164 votes

TITANIC. HYDRA. also of course they're gonna be running away from you, you're in a zone of immunity to auto-attacks!

DreadlocksJan 14, 20165 votes

So now I'm forced to build semi offensive just to get the same damage as full tank shen had?

AuroramancerJan 14, 20163 votes

[Old] Full tank Shen did not have lots of damage, it's just that he dealt more damage to you, than you did to him.

That said, old Shen did not, objectively, have a lot of damage, but Trinity Force was a popular go-to for him. So 1 damage item in a primarily tank build.

Now someone suggests Titanic Hydra, a hybrid damage/tank item, for a primarily tank build.

Altogether, the damage output of new Shen is better than the damage output of old Shen

DreadlocksJan 14, 20162 votes

[Old] Full tank Shen did not have lots of damage, it's just that he dealt more damage to you, than you did to him.

Which is part of my argument.. He's not a solid duelist anymore.

Now someone suggests Titanic Hydra, a hybrid damage/tank item, for a primarily tank build.

I liked building this before.

Altogether, the damage output of new Shen is better than the damage output of old Shen

False, for reasons of part 1 of your comment.

AuroramancerJan 14, 20163 votes

Gains shield passively when landing abilities Can dodge auto attacks Deals %maxHP damage on autos with Q cast

"not a solid duelist" kek

DreadlocksJan 14, 20163 votes

For 3 autos? yeah not that great def not comparable to what he has now.

AuroramancerJan 14, 20163 votes

The difference being that his %MaxHP autos are on-demand, as opposed to Ki Strike's current form, where it can be "wasted" on minions or it's not up when you need it to be.

Plus, the damage is based off of his enemy's %MaxHP, not his, so the damage on those autos are not dependent on Shen's success in lane.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20163 votes

Thats where you are wrong, you see, Q had a base damage of 220 +60% AP which may not sound like much but you could use it from range, meaning you didnt have to fully commit to a fight just to trade. Also he had damage on his passive as well, so even if you use ur Q to last hit, you can still poke when his passive is up.

AuroramancerJan 14, 20162 votes

That's kind of the tradeoff of having MORE defensive options, such as having a passive shield and being able to dodge auto attacks.

Vorpal Blade was the reason why old Shen had some bad base values on his other spells, because targeted ranged damage spells that use energy as a resource is toxic gameplay. Just spam and whittle your opponent down over the course of 2 minutes.

New Shen doesn't have that toxic gameplay anymore, opening him up for more options in other areas of his kit. Now, it's not "spam and whittle your opponent down over the course of 2 minutes". Instead, it's "engage on your opponent and win your trades".

The end outcome is still the same: Shen trades very well. But now he has more options available to him, now that Vorpal Blade's dull, toxic gameplay pattern is gone.

[Vorpal Blade]...but you could use it from range, meaning you didnt have to fully commit to a fight just to trade

There's a difference between "having lower damage output" and "losing a toxic gameplay pattern". Outtrading your opponent when you don't even have to commit to a fight, as a tank? Just because that pattern is gone doesn't mean Shen has objectively lost any of his damage output. It's a matter of how he applies it.

It honestly sounds like you are more upset that you can't sit back and mindlessly throw Vorpal Blades at your lane opponent, and that you have to actually engage with the enemy and think about your actions in order to trade with them.

Shen deserves to have a better laning phase than just being a glorified Yorick-harass clone.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20162 votes

That's kind of the tradeoff of having MORE defensive options, such as having a passive shield and being able to dodge auto attacks.

I'll comment on the rest of your argument later, however this right here should be addressed first.

Shen does not have MORE defensive OPTIONS by any means, he just has a different way of using them. Instead of taking 50% reduced damage, and getting a small heal buff while you trade with Q and a small shield on W, you instead Block all AA dmg during the taunt. This doesn't give him MORE options, it literally does what he already did just in a different mechanic. The only thing it does better is help his allies, which is NOT helping him as a top laner.

SatansteinJan 14, 20166 votes

Enemies are only slowed if they're running away from Shen. The easiest way to set that slow up is to dash through someone and recalling the sword. This means if the enemy wants to retreat to turret, they have to run towards you, meaning they aren't being slowed, and because the best way to melee an opponent down the lane is to be in front of them and orbwalk constantly, they're not going to be slowed. You'd have to deliberately put yourself behind the opponent, which is a godawful place to be trying to melee chase someone, and then try to keep up with them running away.

...You can see how this isn't good.

Okay, so I taunt someone and then use Q? The only way they're going to be slowed is if they ignore me and attempt to go to my allies, which... Why would you ever even do that.

I'm sorry I'm just not feeling this rework at all. I'm really not feelin' it.

Also, does anyone not see this as being a serious problem? How am I supposed to be a ninja if this damn sword won't stop giving me away?

http://puu.sh/mv38E.jpg

ViashinoWizardJan 14, 20165 votes

Like most particle effects, enemies shouldn't be able to see that unless they actually have vision of Shen.

SatansteinJan 14, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Like most particle effects, enemies shouldn't be able to see that unless they actually have vision of Shen.

http://puu.sh/mv5St.jpg

The trail isn't there, but his sword is still there. It leads to garbage scenarios where if you see that stupid sword floating around you know Shen is somewhere near you.

EcchiOtakuTMJan 14, 20161 votes

Even then, the lost of range poke is too immense they really need to make W placeable wherever you want in a range of 600

DreadlocksJan 14, 20162 votes

It seems like people don't really understand what he lost. His all in potential with E Q W is not any better or worse than it was before, that part is fairly comparable. The difference is Shen has no means of farming without getting harassed to hell and no way of retaliating or healing up. it's all in, sit under turret, all in, sit under turret.. His shield doesn't make up for his lack of healing on Q.

QuephaJan 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It seems like people don't really understand what he lost. His all in potential with E Q W is not any better or worse than it was before, that part is fairly comparable. The difference is Shen has no means of farming without getting harassed to hell and no way of retaliating or healing up. it's all in, sit under turret, all in, sit under turret.. His shield doesn't make up for his lack of healing on Q.

That sounds pretty fair given that his very existence post-6 completely redefines what the enemy has to care about.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20161 votes

They they shouldve just taken the Q healing away and made it do something else, instead of gimping everything.

Only FishJan 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They they shouldve just taken the Q healing away and made it do something else, instead of gimping everything.

How exactly did they "Gimp everything" then? I don't know what's going on in your head, you have to be willing to go through this thoroughly or else both sides are going to continue arguing because we lack clarity and understanding about each others thoughts.

What would you suggest his Q have done then? I think what Riot has been intending for him is to make him a more interactive champion. Is it fair to say that Shen right now doesn't have a whole lot of interaction with his kit? His Q is a targeted damaging ability. His W is a fairly weak self-shield. Now his E and ult, which Riot intends to keep the same, have quite a lot interaction. With his E being a skillshot there's room for counterplay for both Shen and his opponent.

Now his ult, oh boy, is what I think of whenever someone mentions Shen to me. I don't think of his point and click spell or his shield, I immediately think of his ult, and his E to a lesser degree. Is Shen's identity so tied to his current Q to you? That's exactly what I'm getting from you right now, and I don't think that's what you're trying to say.

Now, we shouldn't all freak out over this. Instead what we should do is stay calm and have a civil discussion about his new kit, where there might be room for improvement in. Let's say, just for an example, Riot changed his new Q so that instead of giving you extra Attack Speed and more damage when you hit an enemy with your Q, it instead applied the healing effect that his old Q had? Those are the kinds of things we should really be talking about, not about Riot "gutting" your favorite champion.

As well as with the kit update, it also leaves more room to buff his skills if need be. His old Q couldn't really be touched numerically, at least not buffed, due to it being a point and click damage spell. It exists in the same idea that old Ryze Q did, Riot couldn't buff it because it would become oppressive. With it being given more counterplay and more interaction it opens up so many options to buffing it! Doesn't that excite you at the very least? We all have to keep in mind as well that Shen right now is still on the PBE, so his numbers are more than likely not finalized.

If you made it through that, well I don't think I should need to do this, thank you and let me know what you think about it! I'm more than happy to discuss in further detail any point(s) you need more clarification on!

Now then, let's have a great discussion that gets Riot's attention to let them know what WE would like to see added, or dropped, to Shen's new kit!

DreadlocksJan 14, 20163 votes

Now, we shouldn't all freak out over this. Instead what we should do is stay calm and have a civil discussion about his new kit, where there might be room for improvement in.

Unfortunately the majority of the people on the boards don't follow this. So sometimes topics become heated.

Those are the kinds of things we should really be talking about, not about Riot "gutting" your favorite champion.

I agree, it shouldn't be about gutting my favorite champion, but it seems like half the people who try to counter my arguments want him to be gutted.

I think what Riot has been intending for him is to make him a more interactive champion. Is it fair to say that Shen right now doesn't have a whole lot of interaction with his kit?

I'm all for making Shen have more interaction between him and his laner, but alls I've seen and experienced on my PBE games are the same trading potential with his EQW combo as before, but he doesn't have the saftey of a heal, or ranged farming tool. Which is where i lose everyone. Everyone then says "good it was bullshit" Fine, what ever call it bullshit, my point still stands. He lost what helped him survive in top lane. And people are more hyped about that then they are about understanding that this is a NET NERF to what he already has and does.

Only FishJan 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'm all for making Shen have more interaction between him and his laner, but alls I've seen and experienced on my PBE games are the same trading potential with his EQW combo as before, but he doesn't have the saftey of a heal, or ranged farming tool. Which is where i lose everyone. Everyone then says "good it was bullshit" Fine, what ever call it bullshit, my point still stands. He lost what helped him survive in top lane. And people are more hyped about that then they are about understanding that this is a NET NERF to what he already has and does.

I see, you do have a point, I don't play Shen very much, so my experience with Shen is limited to say the least. What would you say if Riot added a small heal, say 1% of his max hp, for every AA that he, or an ally, dodged with his W? Or how about changing his Q so that if the blade hits the enemy on the way through, instead of giving Shen extra damage, he healed on every Auto attack for the duration of the attack speed buff?

DreadlocksJan 14, 20161 votes

Perfect problem solved. +1

599GTOxxJan 14, 20162 votes

I don't think it solves the problem... he still has no recourse against poke... Shen doesn't have the luxury of a targeted dash like Jax and Irelia, he needs some form of range, or a more reliable shield to mitigate poking top lane, if he wants to stay there. He's going to get massacred by a lot of champions.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20161 votes

He's not going to be the same Shen, its an update for a reason, I understand your point, but listen, if they added even a little bit of a heal to his kit while he all ins, its better than not having a heal at all. Sure he might get punished by ranged champions like quinn, most melee's are, but he shouldn't be nearly as punished for fighting another melee champion as hard as he is now. A small heal is at the very least a step in the right direction and better than NOTHING at all.

599GTOxxJan 14, 20162 votes

True, it's better than nothing. I just don't see the point of any of this, we're trying to band-aid a rework that has taken all of a champions strengths, and mitigated them, and all of a champions weaknesses and exaggerated them.

It just doesn't seem like a well thought out rework, and it looks like it needs to be started from scratch.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20162 votes

Probably, but we both know riot doesnt do that. So if we can get a freaking heal in his kit one way or another.. ill at the very least appreciate the effort. Right now it looks rushed and poorly done.

599GTOxxJan 14, 20162 votes

The big issue I have with the heal being tied to dodged AA's.. is that AA's aren't going to be Shen's issue. What are you going to do after Olaf has domed you with 3-4 axes.. or Vlad is Qiing you every waking moment. Or god forbid Swain comes top. There's no recourse for Shen against poke.

While old Shen struggled pretty hard against poke, you could always at least farm a bit with Q+passive combined with your W. (Pop W, Q one minion, and Ki strike another one for farming)

Shen doesn't have a any of the trademark necessities of a solo laner.

EcchiOtakuTMJan 14, 20162 votes

He needs W to place the sword outside a 300 units near but up to 800 units away from him and Q to deal passthrough damage to units, I wouldn't even mind if it only to minions/monsters but if not he'll just get bullied out of lane and be forced to E in order to do any type of damage meaning he's an easy target for junglers.

That's my final thoughts although I still secretly want in-kit sustain

DreadlocksJan 14, 20164 votes

Yeah, Shen mains pretty much hate it, and everyone who hated vsing Shen top lane are having a party.

EcchiOtakuTMJan 14, 20162 votes

Yea it's a shame they only see 'OMG HE CAN SHIELD EASIER NOZ AND BLOK LE AAs SO STRONG" and don't realize he lost any form of way to lane now. I even doubt if he could jungle as well since he can't toss a healing sword so a laner can at least heal up if a gank fails.

And the talk of "welp now shen is a support" is out the window too since you can't do anything without taunting and you can't reliably place W on your adc to even mitigate damage they would take.

With the small suggestion I'm continuing to spam it would fix all the problems im seeing plus it would reliably put the slow on people who run away before you can taunt as a bonus

DreadlocksJan 14, 20162 votes

His shield isnt actually easier though lol. Before you literally pressed W, now you get a longer CD and in order to make it shorter you have to have 1 of your abilties pass through an enemy, meaning you have to use it offensively to get it on a shorter CD. Other than that you are spamming Q to last hit like before without the adding healing.

KMannnnn1Jan 14, 20166 votes

Shen is a champion I enjoy greatly but don't play often, and I feel you. But truth be told, his old abilities are just kinda there for the most part, not offering any gameplay beyond push button-->thing happens. While his new stuff feels very different just from the reveal, I really do think this is a well made update for him that preserves his best aspects.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20166 votes

I'm just saying I dont like that i'm trading a lil more utility for dmg wen i already dont have much dmg.

Imperial RedJan 14, 20166 votes

Shen was my comfort pick. I will really miss the old Shen. I relied on the Q so much for cs and sustain, and he was the only champion I could play and not feel stressed out, because I could survive pretty much anything and heal up while still csing. Despite what people suggest, I haven't found another champion that I liked as much as Shen. I mean, I'll adapt to the changes I suppose, but it's not going to be as fun as before.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20162 votes

Forsure, like i said, the changes arn't complete shit.. but one of the things i really loved about shen was how he was known for "not doing damage" but always found a way to surprise people with my damage.. I feel like that has been taken away.

599GTOxxJan 14, 20165 votes

Vlad is going to rape him harder then ever... basically any champion with anyform of poke whatsoever will destroy him. They've fixed NONE of his problems, only exasperated them.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20165 votes

Exactly why every non shen player is happy, and every shen player is upset.

599GTOxxJan 14, 20164 votes

Well it completely shifts him out of top lane... he's gone, no way he can lane top without waveclear or sustain.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20163 votes

Exactly... i hope riot freaking realizes this.

EcchiOtakuTMJan 14, 20164 votes

You may not think much about what he lost was ranged poke, range farming, damage based on his HP, damage reduction on taunt and his amazing sustain.

However I'm fine with him losing his personal hp scaled damage for % dmg and, damage reduction taunt for his new w but if they let w place the sword where you wanted it would fix the issue of him having no ranged poke immensely

All that would be left to do is give shen back some sustain.

I do love the rework just needs these few fixes.

W place sword wherever you want
In-kit sustain
Q did base damage to champs/minions

DreadlocksJan 14, 20164 votes

Yeah overall its not horrible, my only request is to give his Q damage for passing through champions. But not to minions i think giving his kit wave clear would be pretty bad.

EcchiOtakuTMJan 14, 20161 votes

nah he should still do damage to both champs/minions would be easier to just do reduced damage to minions

LilxPaprikaJan 14, 20162 votes

i liked the idea of Shen being able to be played with like 2 offensive items and 3 defensive items. I enjoyed playing him as tanky bruiser/fighter. Sort of like an irelia. or heck even 2.5, 3 offensiveish and 2 defensive, depending on your team comp. or guinsoon gunblade plus rylais/mallet/sterak's gage... since tbh sustain offensive items are/ought to be a form of defense.

Sure his go to would be tank but I'd like to have more options if the team comp permits, or if your snowballing. just like irelia is pretty flexible.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20166 votes

Yeah now people are telling me i have to build him more offensively.. Which i've tried on PBE and i just melt. Im sooo sad right now. Maybe i need to do a 40% cdr build so i can Q shield every 3 seconds. Wait.. nevermind, i only get a short CD on my shield if my abilties hit an enemy champion, and thats only going to be made easy if i taunt.. which has a 2 second longer CD now soo.. lets see... 6 second Taunt CD.. not tooooo bad, rip energy.

Gregor GysiJan 14, 20161 votes

I do like that he has gotten more interactive and more interesting mechanic wise. But whoever likes Shen as he is right now will probably miss him - atleast for a while. I sincerely hope that you will get along with the new Shen aswell, he seems atleast promising.

DreadlocksJan 14, 20165 votes

Thanks, i've been playing new shen on pbe and i cant come to like it as much as current shen.. I just feel the same as i was before just without the sustain.

I've never been a "victim" to a rework/update for a champion, but that has changed and i'm honestly freaking out. Shen is by far 1 of my favorite champions atm, along with Rengar, Olaf, and Lee Sin. Rengar is on the hotlist for desired rework/gutting, and Olaf is also on a list for a rework (albeit not very soon) I dont really play Lee Sin much anymore but seeing Shen get hit like this with people asking for Rengar reworks.. is frightening.

It's all fun for the people who hate playing vs these champs, they like the Shen rework because they hated playing vs him top. But us active Shen players.. dont appreciate it at all. And now I'm worried that riot is going to kill the champs i love to play. I would honestly quit the game if Rengar got fucked over next..