PD ( which reduces damage ), Maw ( Which reduces magic damage taken PLUS gives you a shield and a strong passive ) , and QSS ( A good item that totally denies CC mages.). Why should adc's also have the option of buying sterak gage too?
Hayaishi221 votesAs long as Talon keeps blowing people up with his eyes closed ADCs will build steraks.
69469238DEL15 votesThank you
Nahui16 votesADCs deserve to be blown up by Talon. That's why supports with CC and disengage exist.
Hayaishi212 votesADCs deserve to be blown up by Talon. That's why supports with CC and disengage exist.
Then don't blame adcs for not wanting to get blown up before they can react.
Nahui11 votesThey're not supposed to react. Assassins have kits designed to blow them up because of the fact that they have a personal hand maiden to protect them, i.e support. Plus only a fed assassin can actually blow a target up without reaction, most of the time there is a couple seconds to do something. Overall, ADC is the biggest glass cannon in the game that shreds everyone. It's only fair they can be blown up in the blink of an eye alone, however not so with, again, a whole class dedicated to them.
Hayaishi25 votesThey're not supposed to react. Assassins have kits designed to blow them up because of the fact that they have a personal hand maiden to protect them, i.e support. Plus only a fed assassin can actually blow a target up without reaction, most of the time there is a couple seconds to do something. Overall, ADC is the biggest glass cannon in the game that shreds everyone. It's only fair they can be blown up in the blink of an eye alone, however not so with, again, a whole class dedicated to them.
Then tanks should have no chance of tanking against an ADC because ADCs are designed to kill tanks. I want to kill tanks as fast as assassins kill adcs.
Phoenix Kotori 16 votesPD ( which reduces damage )
Effective for duels/Sustained damage not burst.
Maw ( Which reduces magic damage taken PLUS gives you a shield and a strong passive )
Only effective against Magic damage
QSS ( A good item that totally denies CC mages.)
Doesn't provide any resistances to burst
Why should adc's also have the option of buying sterak gage too?
Because none of the items you listed are relevant for dealing with AD assassins?
Critmaster Garen19 votes[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KVKbT1oU,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-03-18T18:57:43.952+0000)
Effective for duels/Sustained damage not burst.
Only effective against Magic damage
Doesn't provide any resistances to burst
Because none of the items you listed are relevant for dealing with AD assassins?
you shouldnt be able to deal with assassins?
isnt the marksmens main argument that tanks shouldnt be able to deal with them and survive them, because their job is to bust tanks?
well, the job of assassins and mages is to bust adc. steraks on adc prevents them from being able to do that.
making the shield passive melee only, and putting a 3k health threshold on it should do the trick.
Phoenix Kotori 22 votesisnt the marksmens main argument that tanks shouldnt be able to deal with them and survive them, because their job is to bust tanks?
Then shouldn't we delete 
since their anti-adc items and tanks aren't suppose to be able to deal with adc? http://i.imgur.com/2aznb8q.png[img]
Critmaster Garen9 votes[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KVKbT1oU,comment-id=000700010000,timestamp=2016-03-18T19:14:00.097+0000)
Then shouldn't we delete
too late. thornmail practically got deleted already. the item isnt worth shit if your name isnt malphite, rammus, or taric and you get 500 armor and upwards. and frozen heart is a pure armor item, which loses 30% of its worth by a 1300 gold item 
the same problem why thornmail isnt even useful for its stats anymore.
and even with randuins, tanks blow up in less than 5 seconds.
Phoenix Kotori 4 voteshttp://www.lolking.net/items/3075#topchampions
Sure looks like thornmail is still very worthwhile in some cases by win rates to me.
macromite10 votesthat's because no one buys thornmail unless they are already ahead.
TahmKench Expert2 votesThe only champions that buy it now have synergy directly with it. They dont need it as a tank item per se.
Phoenix Kotori 2 votesNasus, Volibear, Darius, Shen, & Poppy have what synergy with thornmail exactly?
69469238DEL13 votesNo point in trying to use reason here, they just want play Zed for their one shot montage.
DropFill4 votes[{quoted}](name=Hunted Horror,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KVKbT1oU,comment-id=00070002,timestamp=2016-03-18T19:07:15.904+0000)
No point in trying to use reason here, they just want play Zed for their one shot montage.
I sincerely hate zed. My problem is being a mage and being unable to burst adc's despite hitting them with everything I have
Sneakyy XD10 votesPD ( which reduces damage ), Maw ( Which reduces magic damage taken PLUS gives you a shield and a strong passive ) , and QSS ( A good item that totally denies CC mages.). Why should adc's also have the option of buying sterak gage too?
Itemization is already quite shallow. There should be more options for every class.
69469238DEL15 votesTo balance out the game?
Critmaster Garen16 votes[{quoted}](name=Hunted Horror,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KVKbT1oU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-03-18T18:21:10.746+0000)
To balance out the game?
the item was designed for juggs who have to be able to survive in the middle of the enemy team and eat a lot of errand aoe damage and burst that they cant avoid, if they want to be able to participate in a teamfight.
thats officially what the item was made for.
adc using steraks to cheese themselves out of their only intended weakness does not create balance.
as long as it wouldnt create too much of an issue on other champion classes like adc, and assassins, it would be fine. however it does create issues right now. and they really need to change the item to be more effective on juggs, and less effective on adc.
69469238DEL14 votesADC's don't want to build Steraks. If their building Steraks it means the can't participate in the fight without getting blown up.
So basically your saying that ADC's should get the boot because you want to one shot them or nothing?
Lauchmelder8 votesNo what he is saying is that ADCs should feel a downside to building steraks, something they barely do
darkmatchwaldo4 votesThey do feel a downside though, sure you get a bit of survivability but you trade off a real damage item in exchange.
Nahui6 votesYou get a lot of surviability and lose only a bit of damage. This less damage is also compensated for when the item is activated.
69469238DEL12 votesLose only a bit of damage? 75 AD and 20% lifesteal is a little bit more than a bit.
Critmaster Garen8 votes[{quoted}](name=Hunted Horror,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KVKbT1oU,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010001,timestamp=2016-03-18T18:55:52.257+0000)
Lose only a bit of damage? 75 AD and 20% lifesteal is a little bit more than a bit.
for adc its basically a g.a. with 50 ad attached and being able to move when it triggers.
it allows adc to survive burst. which they shouldnt.
69469238DEL14 votes50 ad? Where did you pull out that number? Closer to 24.
Again with the "I WANNA 1 SHOT HIM PLZ" If your so blind that you think ADC's shouldn't be able to survive burst mages or assasins to any degree then there's no point in this discussion.
Critmaster Garen9 votes[{quoted}](name=Hunted Horror,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KVKbT1oU,comment-id=000000000000000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2016-03-18T19:04:07.230+0000)
50 ad? Where did you pull out that number? Closer to 24.
when the shield triggers its 50 ad.
and adc shoudlt be able to 1v1 mages and assassins. steraks allows them to survive without the input of a support, even when the assassin fully commits.
Phoenix Kotori 2 votesFor brief active period it will them 50 AD late game zero crit, zero AS, zero pen, & zero lifesteal that's not a lot compared to actual damage items.
Critmaster Garen4 votes[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KVKbT1oU,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010002,timestamp=2016-03-18T19:01:28.701+0000)
For brief active period it will them 50 AD late game zero crit, zero AS, zero pen, & zero lifesteal that's not a lot compared to actual damage items.
for being such a shitty item on adc, almost all of them still seem to pick it up instead of, say randuins or warmorgs or mallet.
69469238DEL16 votesOf course they feel it, by building Steraks you give up a Bloodthirster or a second AS/CRIT item or Mercurial/Lord Dom. Why is Steraks the best choice for defense here? It's the only item that gives any sort if AD AND Burst survival. Before Steraks all you saw was Banshee's Veil, you didn't whine then.
Nahui4 votesBanshee's gave a spellshield and some health and MR. That's it. You could easily pop the spell shield with a cheap spell, which was the counterplay to it.
Sterak's gives about the same health, damage, and upon taking enough damage, a shield and a damage steroid. They're completely different situations. One an ADC had to completely forego damage to get a little tanky vs a certain class of damage, now an ADC foregoes only a bit of damage for about the same tankiness base stat wise and even more tankiness upon taking damage.
69469238DEL12 votesSo basically you agree that Banshee's was a bad item to build on an adc because you would completely lose AD on it for the survivability.
Nahui4 votesIt was an item built for the purpose of allowing yourself a safety pass should you get caught out. It's so when you stepped one foot out of your team Sejuani's ult didn't slam into you and end the game right there.
And it was fair. you traded damage for tanky. Not half damage, not "I get less damage". No. You traded complete damage, and you got tankier. It was fair. And biggest of all, it had counterplay. You could sling a shitty spell and pop it for like 80 mana should the ADC get a little careless. There's no counterplay to Steraks. Insanely low CD, procs on being significantly hurt. At least items like MAw have a nice CD.
Nahui12 votesADCs don't deserve to fend for themselves. The class should never have survivability. Ever. It pumps out the highest damage and melts any class in the game given a few seconds. There is a whole class, support, designed around being the ADC's survivability. There's also other teammates who are supposed to peel. That's where peel comes from, the need to defend hyper carries, which late game, tends to be ADCs. So yes, should Talon or Zed be able to jump on an ADC and murder him/her without any chance of fighting back? Absolutely. That's the role of the assassin. It's the support's job, or other member, to prevent that. With Sterak's, you're giving a class survivability that shouldn't have it. They take a small hit to damage but gain so much tankiness it's absurd. Sterak's was the answer to tanks/bruisers complaining they get annihilated upon engage, which they were. They believed increasing base AD would keep it from ADCs as they typically need bonus AD. However, this wasn't the case as the extreme tankiness they get actually outweighs the class's intended stats.
Biff Manly4 votesI doubt it was designed for Juggs when the shield activates after you get bursted down like a squishy. It just happened to release at the same time as the big Juggernaut items.
Critmaster Garen2 votes[{quoted}](name=Biff Manly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KVKbT1oU,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-03-19T01:25:31.506+0000)
I doubt it was designed for Juggs when the shield activates after you get bursted down like a squishy. It just happened to release at the same time as the big Juggernaut items.
they directly said multiple times, that steraks is a juggernaut item. even in the same patch they nerfed it because of adc and assassin abuse.
there is not even a question about who the item is targeted at. it scales off base ad, because juggs have the highest base ad in the game, and it scales with health, since they are geared towards health stacking.
Woook3r1 votes"the item was designed for juggs who have to be able to survive in the middle of the enemy team and eat a lot of errand aoe damage and burst that they cant avoid, if they want to be able to participate in a teamfight."
Umm. So why does it have attack dmg and not HP? Lifesteal? Whats 
for?
Critmaster Garen3 votes"the item was designed for juggs who have to be able to survive in the middle of the enemy team and eat a lot of errand aoe damage and burst that they cant avoid, if they want to be able to participate in a teamfight."
Umm. So why does it have attack dmg and not HP? Lifesteal? Whats
steraks has attack damage and hp, what are you talking about?
edit.: holy shit, that spam.
10 seconds doesnt make a tank unkillable. it just means they wsould actually be tanky and not blow up like nothing. and a teamfight taking 5 seconds right now is part of why this game has become shit.
Woook3r2 votesMy point was that you dont need attack dmg to tank aoe in a teamfight. Why does it have AD?
Now, 10 seconds would make a tank unkillable at the present moment. Teamfights being decided in five seconds is due to the fact that theres too much burst dmg and assassins are too popular. How is the adc supposed to kite for 10 seconds in the current meta? Thats impossible and WAAY too mentally demanding.
Ill give you this tho. If you are a tank, your cc shouldnt be on a cooldown greater than five seconds. You should be able to start a fight and then peel or re-engage with a second rotation. If that means you dont get alistare's headbut pulverize, which should be a death sentence to any carry, then good. Fuck that combo.
What if shens taunt was on a 3 second cooldown, but it only taunted a single auto? You could taunt the adc, then your team would do some shit and if things went bad you could taunt the adc again and cover a disengage attempt.
What if engages were actually dynamic and played out over the course of a teamfight, rather than "only use engage cooldowns on the adc or else die to the adc".
Critmaster Garen3 votesMy point was that you dont need attack dmg to tank aoe in a teamfight. Why does it have AD?
its not a tank item. its a jugg item. darus, garen, illaoi etc.
those guys build damage and defense. items like black cleaver, titanic hydra, or steraks gage (depending on who youre playing). because theyre slow moving, tanky melee carries. but they arent actual tanks like leona, nautilus or sejuani.
they dont have hard gap closers, teamwide cc, or hard engage tools like actual tanks. what they have instead is damage comparable to marksmen. theyre just need to build beefy to be able to survive getting into the middle of the enemy team to do anything.
thats why steraks has ad and health as a jugg item. their job is to get into the middle of the enemy team and unleash hell on them. they dont have the freedom of positioning like marksmen do to deal damage. they cant avoid taking a load of burst damage in the process. thats why steraks was made for them.
the counterplay to these dudes is to not let them get into the middle of your team in the first place and take them out from a distance while you kite back. meanwhile their own team tries to get them into the spot they want.
basically the opposite of how youd support a marksman. instead of needing peel, they need engage and a proper setup from an actual tank to get into the fight. marksmen on the other hand have no problem at all of getting intoa fight, but still need the help of their team to keep their distance.
steraks on marskmen makes this part a lot more forgiving. basically they can position terrible as fuck, because the enemy assassin or mage cant kill them even with their entire combo. and thats not counting supports and tanks in their way.
Stephenizgod5 votesThen why doesn't any other role have so many defensive options that also give a ton of offensive possibilities? Both Mercurial and Maw come with great stats and great passives/actives. ADC's can build the majority of their build to help them survive without really slowing down their damage, they are becoming too hard to deal with.
They already have a ton of options, leave Steraks and other such items to their intended roles...
Phoenix Kotori 3 votesThen why doesn't any other role have so many defensive options that also give a ton of offensive possibilities?
DropFill2 votes[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KVKbT1oU,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-03-18T19:03:51.630+0000)
Rod of ages does not give ton of offensive possibilities LOL. Nor does banner of command. Or tear
Phoenix Kotori 2 votes120+ AP on items aren't an offensive possibility?
Nor does banner of command.
It gives defensive/offensive mix.
DropFill1 votes[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KVKbT1oU,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-18T19:32:02.131+0000)
120+ AP on items aren't an offensive possibility?
It gives defensive/offensive mix.
Only rabadon and the full ap tear item gives 120 ap. The shield is not even that great and consumes your mana pool, so there is a instant trade off. No one even builds it nowadays. Banner of command is only bought in supports lol
Abyssphere2 votes[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KVKbT1oU,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-03-18T19:03:51.630+0000)
Defensive AP itemisation is almost entirely based on putting a vague mixture of tanky stats on a champion. That helps with surviving ambient burst but not with actual focus, at all. A mage with Deathcap/Morello/Luden's dies about as quickly as a mage with Rylai's/Abyssal/Zhonya's in most situations.
AD defensive itemisation has actually got a variety of defensive passives and actives. Sterak's and Maw are both insane in 1v1 scenarios (easily turning assassins jumping onto caught out ADCs as kills for the ADC) while giving a shocking amount of tankiness in team fights, and Merc Scim pretty much automatically invalidates any attempt a mage can make at killing an ADC before you even get to the point of procing the Maw or Sterak's shield.
You haven't put any thought into the state of defensive itemisation in both stats if you don't realise how massive the gap is between the two.
