Let's nerf Sejuani when she's completely irrelevant

Sayonara Shabi·Oct 28, 2018·18 votes·7,399 views

Let's not touch Jax at all when he's broken and has no counterplay! XD

26 Comments

Death by GlamourOct 28, 201813 votes

He is pretty strong but lets not pretend he lacks counter play

TheSingularityOct 28, 20186 votes

Counterpicks are not counterplay. Counterply can be performed by anyone and has the same outcome everytime. Eg dodging a velkoz Q

Jax has a 100% point and click kit and thus inherently lacks specific counterplay. "Just cc him" applies to everyone and thus isn't specific to his kit.

Yes I could counterpick jax with a heim or rumble. But they abuse the fact that his dodge doesn't work on spells. Not everyone can do this.

AirKingNeoOct 28, 20187 votes

You can literally walk out of Jax's E. That's counterplay.

You fight with him before he stacks his passive on the wave. That's counterplay.

He's melee and auto attacks for 90% of his damage, so you can kite him, walk away, or zone him. That's counterplay.

TheSingularityOct 28, 20183 votes

Yes simply walk away from a champion in the third highet base movement speed group. Who then has his Q.

Before he stacks his passive is all up to hoping you enter lane before he does and have the dmg to take him. Unless those conditions are met, which becomes harder with time... there's no chance

And yes. Kite him as a melee. So run away? Because so many melees can kite effectively against a champion with more ms than them while they themselves lack ranged damage to kite with

AirKingNeoOct 28, 20182 votes

You know he has to stop moving to auto attack, right?

Or you starting trading as soon as the wave comes in.

Many melees can kite away. They all have dashes or are juggernauts who win in close quarters anyways.

NyarlathοtepOct 29, 20181 votes

You can literally walk out of Jax's E. That's counterplay.

You know he can walk too right? I can try to avoid his e. However considering its radius (300 i think) and the fact that jax has good movement speed, its just not feasible unless i use a dash.

You fight with him before he stacks his passive on the wave. That's counterplay.

Thats a solid argument. HOWEVER both his e and ulti buy him enough time to stack it (and conq in the process) so again not realistically possible.

He's melee and auto attacks for 90% of his damage, so you can kite him, walk away, or zone him. That's counterplay.

Can people stop with this stupid argument? He has a point and click dash (700). Couple that with the radius of his e and he has enough tools to keep people still and aa them to death or force the enemy to back off since you cant fight back when he casts e. He avoids all aa and takes reduced dmg from aoe. After he uses his e EVEN if you somehow avoided it, chances are that you cant fight him because he has 2 or 3 stacks on his passive, and conq is ready to proc.

AirKingNeoOct 29, 20181 votes

You know he can walk too right? I can try to avoid his e. However considering its radius (300 i think) and the fact that jax has good movement speed, its just not feasible unless i use a dash.

He has to stop moving to auto attack. Unless he stops auto attacking, you'll outrun him.

Thats a solid argument. HOWEVER both his e and ulti buy him enough time to stack it (and conq in the process) so again not realistically possible.

In what world does Jax uses E and R on the wave to stack passive? Like you realize you, the person fighting Jax, has an R and E too, right?

Can people stop with this stupid argument?

It isn't a stupid argument. Having to auto attack and being in melee range are both huge weaknesses and get worse when combined.

NyarlathοtepOct 29, 2018

He has to stop moving to auto attack. Unless he stops auto attacking, you'll outrun him.

No you wont. Source? Experience.

In what world does Jax uses E and R on the wave to stack passive? Like you realize you, the person fighting Jax, has an R and E too, right?

I was mostly talking about when he was in melee with you. Even if you do engage on him when his stacks are 0, both his e and r buy him enough time to stack them.

It isn't a stupid argument. Having to auto attack and being in melee range are both huge weaknesses and get worse when combined.

100% true. Which is completely nullified when your e gives you aa immunity, aoe dmg reduction and an r that literally gives you resistances.

AirKingNeoOct 29, 20181 votes

No you wont. Source? Experience.

Run at 335 speed but having to stop every half second for a quarter of a second OR run at 330 consistently?

I was mostly talking about when he was in melee with you. Even if you do engage on him when his stacks are 0, both his e and r buy him enough time to stack them.

#"Like, you realize you, the person fighting Jax, has an R and E too, right?"

Which is completely nullified when your e gives you aa immunity, aoe dmg reduction and an r that literally gives you resistances.

Ok? That doesn't stop you from running away from Jax's attack range.

NyarlathοtepOct 30, 2018

Run at 335 speed but having to stop every half second for a quarter of a second OR run at 330 consistently?

?????? Jax movement speed is way higher. 350. 3 5 0

Like, you realize you, the person fighting Jax, has an R and E too, right?

And depending on the champ they could help or they cant help. Lets take darius for example. His q is aoe (reduced by jax's e). His w is aa (during his e jax has immunity to aa). His e is a utility ability. And his ulti is a point and click that can become a nuke which in order to become one he has to aa jax. Unless im wrong, historically darius is extremely strong against jax during the laning phase. However according to opgg, jax wins more games against darius (although by an extremely small margin).

Ok? That doesn't stop you from running away from Jax's attack range.

No. But he can follow. And unless you have a dash, you cant outrun someone with 350 movement speed (unless you have movement speed buffs).

AirKingNeoOct 30, 20181 votes

?????? Jax movement speed is way higher. 350. 3 5 0

The point was most top laners are about equal speed to Jax, so Jax having to stop moving to attack makes him slower than his competition.

No. But he can follow. And unless you have a dash, you cant outrun someone with 350 movement speed (unless you have movement speed buffs).

"He has a dash" isn't an argument when most opponents also have a dash too.

AirKingNeoOct 28, 20186 votes

>Jax broken

>see no competitive play

SithesisLordOct 29, 20184 votes

-> Ornn is contested pick in competitive

-> Troll pick in SoloQ

-> Tahm Kench contested pick in competitive

-> Troll pick in SoloQ

Almost as if viability in Organized Play doesn´t always reflect the state of a champion in SoloQ, as they´re completely different games.

NyarlathοtepOct 29, 20181 votes

[deleted]

AirKingNeoOct 29, 20181 votes

That's defamation, which is against The Boards' rules. And the worst part is you don't make valid criticisms (or really anything at all).

Like, at some point you have to realize that Pro Play and Solo Queue are numerically the same game, so clearly something won't be viable in pro because there's a counter to it that is readily available.

https://www.op.gg/champion/jax/statistics/top Even statistically, Jax isn't broken in solo queue either.

NyarlathοtepOct 29, 2018

That's defamation, which is against The Boards' rules.

I just went through both board's rules and board's user's guide. Absolutely nothing.

And the worst part is you don't make valid criticisms (or really anything at all).

Valid criticism? Please spare me. Everyone tells you that both soloq and proplay are different environments, yet you vehemently refuse to accept it.

Like, at some point you have to realize that Pro Play and Solo Queue are numerically the same game, so clearly something won't be viable in pro because there's a counter to it that is readily available.

They indeed the same game. However, in proplay, T H E R E I S P R O P E R C O M M U N I C A T I O N . The players there know each other. They play together all the time. They are also (more or less) the same skill (i mean they know what to expect from their teammates, both because they know them but because they are also equally skilled).

Proplay is a different environment. Soloq cant replicate it. There picks like tahm and sej are broken while in soloq are weak-mediocre. Period.

https://www.op.gg/champion/jax/statistics/top Even statistically, Jax isn't broken in solo queue either.

One doesnt need statistics to prove whether someone is broken. Take kalista. She is weak. But holy moly if you lack dashes you are going to have an awful time against her. She simply lacks sufficient counterplay with some classes.

AirKingNeoOct 29, 20181 votes

I just went through both board's rules and board's user's guide. Absolutely nothing.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/community-moderation/ITFIpNUE

Section: The Bad Stuff Subsection: Disrespecting or Insulting Other Community Members Description: Do not post content intended to insult, belittle, disrespect, or intentionally offend other community members as individuals or as groups.

Valid criticism? Please spare me. Everyone tells you that both soloq and proplay are different environments, yet you vehemently refuse to accept it.

"Everyone" can be wrong. Everyone once thought the Earth was flat, that the sun revolved around the Earth. "Everyone" on the boards thinks mages are weak despite the evidence. Plus, "Everyone" hasn't given proof of Pro Play and Solo Queue being different.

They indeed the same game. However, in proplay, T H E R E I S P R O P E R C O M M U N I C A T I O N . The players there know each other. They play together all the time. They are also (more or less) the same skill (i mean they know what to expect from their teammates, both because they know them but because they are also equally skilled).

That doesn't counter my argument, "something won't be viable in pro because there's a counter to it that is readily available."

One doesnt need statistics to prove whether someone is broken. Take kalista. She is weak. But holy moly if you lack dashes you are going to have an awful time against her. She simply lacks sufficient counterplay with some classes.

https://www.op.gg/champion/kaisa/statistics/adc

#LOOK AT HER FUCKING STATS?! WHAT PART OF HER STATS MAKES HER LOOK WEAK?! 49% winrate with a 33% pickrate! 33% PICKRATE! If you don't know how to interpret stats, then you shouldn't try to talk about them or champion balance.

NyarlathοtepOct 30, 2018

Section: The Bad Stuff Subsection: Disrespecting or Insulting Other Community Members Description: Do not post content intended to insult, belittle, disrespect, or intentionally offend other community members as individuals or as groups.

Makes me wonder how did i not see it. Nevertheless im pretty sure they are referring to way more extreme stuff. I mean my call is extremely common and i have never seen it punished.

"Everyone" on the boards thinks mages are weak despite the evidence.

Im pretty sure most just say that playing a mage is a chore. When everyone and even their mother can get up to their face and destroy them, you are going to have trouble (unless you are lissandra, vlad or annie). Which made me think, what if this contributed to the fact that viktor moved at top. There most champs are either juggernauts or tanks and sometimes divers/skirmishers.

Plus, "Everyone" hasn't given proof of Pro Play and Solo Queue being different.

And i copy paste "in proplay, T H E R E I S P R O P E R C O M M U N I C A T I O N . The players there know each other. They play together all the time. They are also (more or less) the same skill (i mean they know what to expect from their teammates, both because they know them but because they are also equally skilled)."

If you cant understand this, then im afraid you need professional help. They are playing the game in the most optimal way. Something that soloq CANT REPLICATE.

That doesn't counter my argument, "something won't be viable in pro because there's a counter to it that is readily available."

Pro can counter most stuff because (say it with me) T H E R E I S P R O P E R C O M M U N I C A T I O N .

LOOK AT HER FUCKING STATS?! WHAT PART OF HER STATS MAKES HER LOOK WEAK?! 49% winrate with a 33% pickrate! 33% PICKRATE! If you don't know how to interpret stats, then you shouldn't try to talk about them or champion balance.

Oke im going to be honest with that statement. After i posted my comment out of curiosity i went to opgg to see her stats and i was surprised by her positive stats. But emmm i didnt say kaisa i said kalista.

AirKingNeoOct 29, 20181 votes

You're acting like it's a two-way street. All picks who are broken in solo queue are broken in competitive, but not all competitive picks are broken in solo queue. It's a one-way street.

We know this because if we look at every champion who is broken in solo queue, we see them in pro play.

Except, Jax...... because he isn't broken.

SithesisLordOct 30, 20182 votes

The fact that Ornn and Kench have been contested top and support picks in pro play for about just as much as they´ve been troll picks in SoloQ shows that it is a two way street for some champions.

The fact that there are more SoloQ broken/Pro Play broken champions in those stats is hardly enough evidence to invalidate my point.

Shen was also a very good pick in worlds, yet his stats in SoloQ scream troll pick.

That is because SoloQ and Pro Play, despite showing similarities, are two different games.

Pro players live and play with each other constantly, meaning they know how each other play out lane and game.

They are on voice chat, meaning engages can be properly followed through by the entire team.

Are there broken champions in SoloQ that are also broken in Pro play? Yes.

But there are also champions that are barely functional in SoloQ solely due to the fact that they´re supposed to work better in a team that knows how each and every single one of its players work, in a team that has a key factor in League: Communication.

And Jax is broken. In SoloQ, but he is broken.

Or do you think that for some reason him having almost the same stats as Sion does not constitute as him being broken?

Despite the fact many top laners claiming Sion is broken?

Let´s see their numbers, shall we?

52.9% win rate for Sion, 52.8% for Jax. 12.8% pick rate for Sion, 14.7% for Jax. 8.9% ban rate for Sion, 22.7% for Jax.

So how come for top laners Sion is broken, but Jax isn´t, despite the fact that Jax is being picked more and banned more, and is still finding similar success. Hell, more success if we consider the almost, if not more than 4k games difference between the two.

In Worlds?

Sion was more banned than picked, and overall wasn´t that much of a successful pick.

For the ADCs breaking the rule, look no further than Sivir.

Junglers? Gragas and Skarner.

Mid laners? Ryze.

Supports? Leona, Shen and the aforementioned Tahm Kench.

Bottomline is Jax is broken in SoloQ, despite having no appearance in in Pro play, because just like many other champions, what´s broken SoloQ may not be so for Pro Play. What´s good enough to be contested in Pro Play may turn out to be awful in SoloQ, or just average in the best of cases.

So it is a one way street for some champions, and a two way street for others.

PlsBuffMyMainOct 29, 20182 votes

I love how people complain about Sejuani nerfs but hate the same champion when she's meta.

GuzergusOct 29, 20182 votes

has no counterplay!

Please stop with that counterplay bullshit. It seems nowadays every hero which makes you uncomfortable 'has no counterplay'.

VoidStaresBackOct 28, 20181 votes

Comparing a request to nerf him with Sejuani's nerf is rather disingenuous, given that Sejuani was nerfed because she was dominant in the pro scene, despite not being relevant in solo queue.

FullmetallicOct 29, 20181 votes

Hashinshin heard this, RUN

BLIGHTBRINGEROct 29, 20181 votes

You know.. I looked at Sejuani's winrate/pickrate through various websites and so on, and I got to say it's not fully the issue with her (not entirely, while mostly) but it's also how people play her.

For starters most people don't build her right in the early stages of the game. This is what most people buy...

item 1401 item 3083

###What they should be buying...

item 1401 item 3025

Sejuani doesn't really benefit that much from all that health against something like Bork Lucian for example, even if her W scales with it. Iceborn Gauntlet combined with her Passive creates a massive Slow zone area and the damage itself is really beneficial for her since she somewhat lacks that of.

With the first build you are only making one ability in your kit stronger, whereas with Iceborn Gauntlet you are empowering your Auto Attacks with each ability to allow you to apply your E slow Passive Stacks better.