I don't get why ranged champs can complain about Braum and Yasuo having 1 skill that counters them

FalconPawwwwnch·Dec 30, 2014·65 votes·5,996 views

When there's tons of champions whose entire kits are designed to be way more antimelee than Yasuo and Braum are antiranged

Janna, Lissandra, Vayne, Jayce, Kennen, Ryze, Lulu, Gnar, Azir, Kalista, Thresh, Karma, and the list goes on

2 champions in the game have one skill that is specifically anti-ranged and everyone complains about it, meanwhile along with tons of champions being entirely anti-melee about 3/4 the cast has a slow, and yes, slows and snares hurt melee a lot more than they hurt ranged champions, a snare is basically a stun on a melee autoattacker when cast at range. Not even mentioning things like red buff still existing on ranged champions when omen's slow got removed, the fact that 3/4 of the last champions released have kits that melee can't even fight against unless overloaded with mobility, or the fact that ranged champions have way better laning phases and late games due to LW/VS than most melees do.

When is this trend going to stop exactly? When every lane consists of only ranged champions and the 65ish melees are stuck in the jungle while the 55ish ranged champions dominate all 4 lanes?

85 Comments

meatjunjunDec 31, 201416 votes

I feel many complain because they think in their head that range should always beat melee. That's a pretty logical thought. But because of this, when a ranged player faces a melee, they automatically assume that they should have it easier. So when they face a yasuo, and find he counters them, they cry foul.

As for melee players, it's the opposite. They go into the fight accepting their disadvantage. So they don't complain as much.

At least that's my theory. Ranged players refuse to accept it.

DrCyanideDec 30, 201412 votes

The reason Yasuo and Braum get complained about is that they can stop an ability from doing damage after it has already been sent on its way. Different people hate one more than the other. I personally hate Yasuo's wind wall because it stops everything, but I'm OK with Braum, since it only completely stops the first ability. I know other people are OK with Yasuo because they can move around it, but hate Braum's because he can re-position it.

In a sense, these barriers both shorten the range of abilities and waste the cooldowns of said abilities. I don't pity the ADC that missed the last auto attack because a Wind Wall or Unbreakable went up, but I do pity anyone who fired their ultimate perfectly only to watch it disappear into nothingness.

Janna's ultimate and Azir's ultimate are the closest comparison to these abilities, as they effectively undo any and all gap-closer that were used to get close to them. Everyone else that comes to mind can only displace a single target or can keep their target from getting into range to attack. Not being able to get in range to attack is a different type of frustration than the frustration that comes from an attack (or multiple attacks) being completely negated. (See also: Morgana's Black Shield)

If there was a champion that was able to prevent Melee attacks from doing damage, even after the ability had been used, then Melee's would have an equivalent of Yasuo/Braum. Until then, they just have different frustrations.

YOU BEEN WARNEDDec 31, 20141 votes

Did you not read the post. Snares slows and knockbacks prevent melee attacks altogether, why do you think NASUS is not picked on LCS ? Hint: his Q will only hit towers and tanks.

SmokingPuffinDec 31, 20142 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KJ14NtAV,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2014-12-31T09:27:32.918+0000)

Did you not read the post. Snares slows and knockbacks prevent melee attacks altogether, why do you think NASUS is not picked on LCS ? Hint: his Q will only hit towers and tanks.

Turns out Nasus cannot handle 2v1 lanes. No stacks, no wins.

If Nasus could farm in pro games, he'd see play.

YOU BEEN WARNEDDec 31, 20141 votes

2v1 lanes top were nerfed ( Auto attack damage reduced to tower )

Nasus has innate lifesteal & current toplaners "buddy up" with junglers for early XP when the situation happens anyway.

DrCyanideDec 31, 20141 votes

You're a few patches out dated with your information:

V4.7: Fortification buff

Duration reduced to 7 minutes from 8.

Damage reduction from champions increased to 30 from 20.

Now also applies to bottom tower, not just top and mid.

DrCyanideDec 31, 20141 votes

They prevent the attack from getting into range which is a completely different matter entirely. If a champion had an ability that only negated melee attacks, you would still have your attacks cost you mana and the cooldown would go off, but you would not do damage. See the difference?

YOU BEEN WARNEDDec 31, 20141 votes

Blinds do that, they even block auto attack resets like Trundle Q. Just like how Yasuo can stop an Ezreal ultimate, Quinn can stop a full fury renek W.

DrCyanideDec 31, 20141 votes

I'm actually glad you brought this up, as I hadn't considered Blind an equivalent (I normally consider Silence and Blind equivalents, just aimed at different targets). Since Blind can only be applied from two champions, both as non-ults, it's worth looking at.

According to the Wiki, Blind should stop the Physical Damage portion of any empowered auto attacks, as well as stopping any ability that applies On-Hit effects. However, experience says that information is either out dated or poorly worded. Any Teemo player can tell you that a Blind does not stop a Nasus Q from landing, nor will it stop a Gold Card from Twisted Fate, or an Empowered Strike from Jax. Renekton and Trundle have utility on the abilities you mentioned that still goes through as well.

Some champions can have their ultimates negated by blind, namely Fiora, Twitch, and Warwick, but it's easy to see that this is the exception rather than the rule.

Considering that the CC still goes through, it's reasonable to compare Blind to Unbreakable, which I've already stated I find to be the fair of the two abilities. It's also worth noting that Twitch is on the short list of champions who loose an ultimate from Blind, making it not a unique problem to melee champions.

All in all, I still think that Blind is more comparable to Silence for the vast majority of champions.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJan 1, 20151 votes

No. Teemo Q actually stops Nasus Q and puts it on CD, try it out in customs; it's a gigantic counter to any melee auto attacker. For Jax and Poppy ( they who convert autos to magic damage ) however the ability is kept; makes them entirely miss for the duration.

For a DPS Trundle, any Tryndamere and Nasus ( which are merely examples of critical counters, there are more melee champions screwed over by blinds like Rengar ). Blind disables a huge portion of said champions' DPS with the only counterplay being running away.

DrCyanideJan 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KJ14NtAV,comment-id=000200010001000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-01T13:59:11.684+0000)

No. Teemo Q actually stops Nasus Q and puts it on CD, try it out in customs;

*goes and tests it*

I stand corrected. Thank you for proving me wrong, it's always better to have a correct knowledge of how the game works.

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KJ14NtAV,comment-id=000200010001000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-01T13:59:11.684+0000)

it's a gigantic counter to any melee auto attacker.

The difference here is that it's not exclusively anti-melee. It shuts down any Marksman just as hard, and there are only a few champions that have abilities that are canceled out by it. If it shut down most of the abilities a Melee champion had (excluding some things like a Blitz grab or Irelia ult), and didn't really effect Ranged champions then it'd be a closer example.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJan 2, 20151 votes

It definitely isn't exclusively anti-melee, however what it does best is bullying and countering the melee. Have you seen people pick Teemo against say; Kog'maw for example ?

No because ADCs are our overlords and saviors, they serve a million purposes that their life is more important than maximizing their DPS. Mostly waveclear and being a reliable DPS source so long they are alive.

If Kog'maw is somehow blinded he will retreat to his team for the duration suffering nearly nothing. If Gangplank is blinded when in melee range of Quinn; There is no escape. He is definitely chunked for a massive portion of his health if not dead.

( The basic concept of Melee VS. Ranged: If the melee goes in for a trade that does not kill the target, the ranged will hit the melee about twice as he is running back to position due to the existence of towers/teammates/minions. There is no such advantage for melee )

Meanwhile Windwall & Unbreakable...

Stars ShaperDec 31, 20142 votes

Everything

Either reconsider this statement or try to stop Xerath Q,W,R, Lux R, Vel'koz R etc...

DrCyanideDec 31, 20144 votes

Looking at the rest of the sentence, I thought I was clear enough, but I'll clarify:

Every projectile is completely negated against Yasuo's Wind Wall. Braum completely negates the damage of the first projectile, but still takes CC and takes reduced damage from additional projectiles.

Of course non-projectiles are immune to both.

Mecha MaIphiteDec 31, 20144 votes

Kind of how like Fizz shakes off pretty much every ult ever.

DrCyanideDec 31, 20142 votes

The difference is that Fizz cannot shake off an ult for his entire team, he can only keep himself safe.

DirewolfiezDec 31, 20148 votes

I don't care about Braum, he can't 100-0 you with 2 skills all while denying you poke. His only real damaging skill is his ult, and that's on a pretty long CD.

AerialBladeDec 31, 20142 votes

because he's a goddamn tank?

DirewolfiezDec 31, 201411 votes

MY POINT IS, I'm fine with a UTILITY TANK having a skill like that. The fact that a mobile assassin can do almost the same thing is ridiculous.

HateDaddyDec 31, 20146 votes

{quoted}

MY POINT IS, I'm fine with a UTILITY TANK having a skill like that. The fact that a mobile assassin can do almost the same thing is ridiculous.

So what about shit like Veigar's stun, which is basically an ultimate in itself? What about the countless stuns and displacements ranged adcs and ranged APs have that are basically point and click? He does after all sacrifice an ability for it, meaning he's only got 3 offensive abilities. If I had one gripe about yasuo, it wouldn't even relate to him directly - it's that the smallest displacements can proc his ult. aside from that, no issues here. Carry on mr Yasuo

DirewolfiezDec 31, 20143 votes

So what about shit like Veigar's stun, which is basically an ultimate in itself?

lol That made me laugh pretty hard. Good job, you cracked me up.

AerialBladeDec 31, 20142 votes

We were talking about braum not having much damage - which is true, because he's a tank. Every mobile melee assassin / carry has ridiculous defensive abilities, whether it is Yi spamming untargetability, trynd with 5+ seconds of slamming people with crits, or Yasuo's 4 second wind wall that can be walked around or bypassed by non projectile abilites. SO it isn't 'ridiculous' at all that yasuo can do that.

MannysmokerDec 31, 20143 votes

Yasuo windwall is static, while Braum can dash and walk with..

DirewolfiezDec 31, 20141 votes

Hence "almost the same thing". I've played with and against both champs before, you know...

MannysmokerDec 31, 20141 votes

I see the point of the ppl getting pissed for those abilities.

"I right click them but i don't do dmg"

RIOT!!! Windwall and Unbreakable Op, i right click but i don't harm them...(proceed to cry in the corner).

DirewolfiezDec 31, 20142 votes

I mainly play skillshot APCs, like Lux and Brand. The fact that he hard-counters APCs in general (aside from point-and-click champs like Ryze and Annie) seriously pisses me off. I don't have much problems with him when I play ADCs, but that's because AAing doesn't use a resource or rely on CDs.

MannysmokerDec 31, 20141 votes

I remember playing a match as Orianna vs Yasuo , and i really shitted on his heart... because i baited his Windwall every single time, so don't come whining that because u play skillshot based champs like Lux . he hard counter them.. is just knowing when to fight him and when not... at least that's from my experience vs Yasuo

DirewolfiezDec 31, 20141 votes

I'm not whining because he has an advantage over them, I'm "whining" because he HARD-COUNTERS an extremely large group of champs, and because of that he rarely faces any real challenge mid lane unless they specifically counterpick Yasuo, or use an unconventional pick that they don't know how to play against, or they just suck as playing him. Hard-countering that large a pool of champs just by existing is fucking stupid, but that's normal for most CertainlyT champs, like Kalista, Darius and Thresh.

MannysmokerDec 31, 20141 votes

then for your point of view, what has to be done with Yasuo ...??

Remove his Windwall and then, the point of playing Yasuo or remove his Sweeping Blade, into a shitty version of MasterYi , but without the Slow negation.

DirewolfiezJan 1, 20151 votes

No, remove his x2 crit and either remove or lessen the amount and/or time he gets his 50% bonus armor pen, or at least make it scale UP to 50% for each point in it. Right now, if he gets fed, he's next to impossible to take out, much like Akali or Katarina. He's feast or famine, and that's not good for anyone involved. Oh, also, his ult's 30 sec. CD at level 3 is BS, move that up to 45 seconds. I'm tired of him using it in every teamfight, and it's too powerful to have that low a CD late game. In return, buff his stats back up, return his shield to release state, and let E generate Flow again.

Might be interesting to give his Wind Wall a health bar based on his current Flow; that way he'd be encouraged to do something besides just use it to proc his passive. That's not that important to his balance, though, just something I thought would give him more interesting interactions besides just baiting it out.

I don't hate Wind Wall for being Wind Wall, I hate the fact that it's in Yasuo's kit, considering the large amount of things he's able to do with it. He's a great teamfighter, he can duel like an assassin, he's highly mobile and his utility from Wind Wall and his knockups is pretty high for a fighter/assassin.

MannysmokerJan 1, 20151 votes

I won't argue that Yasuo kit is/was overloaded, but he also deals 10% minus dmg from crits and if you take the mastery of 10% damage reduction from crits, he is dealing 20% less damage, and is not like a fed yasuo can wipe out a whole team by himself going into a 1v5 at once, unless they're underleveled and with poor itemization against him.

DirewolfiezJan 1, 20151 votes

The problem is, his ult makes it impossible to itemize against him, since he doubles as a tank killer as well as a normal assassin. The reduced crit damage is offset greatly by the x2 crit chance, which lets him get crit chance that would make ADC mains jizz their pants, and even without crit runes, his core of IE + Shiv gets him to 90%. It's more of a gimmick than an actual drawback, since even if his crits do 10% less damage, he basically crits twice as often. Even if it's less, with IE and Shiv he no longer has any real drawbacks aside from not hitting the highest possible crit damage.

and is not like a fed yasuo can wipe out a whole team by himself going into a 1v5 at once, unless they're underleveled and with poor itemization against him.

I've seen that happen a lot, admittedly less often after his nerfs, but his problem is most of his counterplay is don't get hit by his 3rd Q, or don't allow him to snowball and try to keep him gold poor. Once a Yasuo gets full build, if they're smart, it's pretty much gg at that point, due to his pushing power with Shiv and his insane teamfight potential due to his ult.

metaworldpeace10Dec 31, 20148 votes

Yeah, playing top lane as a melee is horrible right now for a couple of reasons:

Most likely you will face a ranged top laner (Lissandra, Gnar, Ryze, Lulu, Jayce) and be forced to take it up the ass for the first 20-25 minutes of the game, unless you pick Irelia/Maokai/Rumble, then you might be able to fight back after the 10-12 minute mark.
If you do happen to get fed as an AD melee top laner and blow through your lane, it ends up not mattering much because that 0 cs Janna or Nami support will completely invalidate you in every team fight. Being fed as a top laner has 0 impact on the final outcome of the match

Ways to fix these things? First off, there needs to be a worthy objective top lane that's worth fighting over. Right now, top lane is basically neglected by the jungler. If the jungler comes top, then the enemy jungler goes bot and secures dragon. There needs to be some incentive for fighting in top lane, other than Baron of course. Maybe make the Scuttle Crab only spawn on the top half of the river and possibly grant 50+ gold to each member of the team? I dunno, just an idea.

I'd like to see fighter/tank itemization reworked and redone. Fighters/bruisers are problematic because if tank items are strong, they will abuse them and crowd out the true tank champion picks (Naut, Sej, Garen, Zac ext) If the tank items are too weak, we only see fighters who can build one damage item, then full tank and out damage the tanks, looking at you J4, Lee Sin, Vi. Too bad Ghostcrawler has been totally MIA this whole pre-season and has not addressed this issue at all, other than allowing for Ryze/Lulu/Jayce to 100% dominate worlds, while Shyvana/Mundo cry in a corner because "muh slapstick fights"

PokladnicaZlaDec 31, 20146 votes

Doesnt anyone else find it funny that melees(Fighters&Tanks) are losing against ranged on top,while ranged(Mages) are losing against melees(assassins) on mid?

ON-TOPIC:I dont have a problem with Braum having a ˝barrier˝,because he is an utility and only blocks the 1. projectile,the rest is applied with rduced damage while also tanking the ultimates for his teammates(Jinx,Cait&EZ R...)

Yasuo:Mhm.Manaless,blocks every projectile as long as it remains on the field, 2 sec Q which procs on-hit effect(delas 600 damage with Statikk,has another shield,2xcrit,very mobile,r is an execute which increases CC duration because of the animation of 1 sec.

Yasuo´s barrier doesnt really have any downside of using it,while Braums has.

Also,it looks like your exaggarating with the melees getting hit by CC and the ranged getting hit by it. Most melees are tanky and wont die when hit by it(talking mostly about Tanks&Fighters).If you are a ranged champion getting hit by CC is death-sentence.

Just to note.Im not saying that melees shoudlnt get looked into,which they shloud be(buffed,better itemezation),but please note that you are talking about FIGHTERS and TANKS,because melee assassins are out of hand.

P.S.1 Those champions you listened werent made to be anti-melee(atleast not all of them),but desinged to be good at peeling and disengaging.

P.S.2 There are ~64 Melee,6 that can switch between melee/ranged,~53 Ranged

Stars ShaperDec 31, 20142 votes

Yasuo's barrier is immobile, Braum's not here is the advanatge Braum gets at the cost of not casting other skills, plus Braum's barrier intercepts projectiles at the cost of nullifing the first and reducing the damage of others.

Both skills (but I think this applies more for Yasuo) must be used reactively because there is no brained player that would shoot continously or ultimates toward an already placed wall.

Yandere Moe GirlDec 30, 20145 votes

The reason I personally have a problem with Yasuo's windwall isn't because of the antirange concept, but because of how it interacts with certain champions. For example, if you've ever played Orianna against him, you'll see how ridiculously broken it is. If the ball is anywhere near it, she can't really move it, shield her allies, and if even the edges of her ult are just touching it then the ult is completely canceled. If Riot would fix problems like this, then I think his wall would be fine.

YoshuoDec 31, 20148 votes

{quoted}

and if even the edges of her ult are just touching it then the ult is completely canceled. If Riot would fix problems like this, then I think his wall would be fine.

Yasuo's wall definitely doesn't stop Orianna's ult.

AerialBladeDec 31, 20145 votes

yeah, in addition, i see shit going through the wall all the time, such as TF cards or Nunu balls. It's bugged both ways..

Yandere Moe GirlDec 31, 20142 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo's wall definitely doesn't stop Orianna's ult.

I may be mistaken about that, but the other points still stand.

HateDaddyDec 31, 20145 votes

Riot!!!!!!!!! I can't right click him right now!!!!!

RIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stars ShaperDec 31, 20144 votes

Because Yasuo hate makes you look like Dia1. Braum suffers from reflected hate.

I've been discussing with ppl so much, brought up numbers and facts, examined champions kit and proved that even guys like Vel'Koz and Lux (the ones who suffer more from Wind Wall) can't really complain. Also I played myself as and against Yasuo and I've never had problems dealing with him outside skill disparity in some occasions (but that's my fault).

Yet you see that anything that blatantly shows hate toward Yasuo gets tons of upvotes while anything that tries to defend him gets -50s.

Why? because ppl cannot accept that they have to learn something. Yasuo (and Braum) counters "Turret Plays" and ppl like it so much (expecially ADCs) that they cannot accept a change in the field even for half a second (max uptime of Wind Wall is 20%).

PokladnicaZlaDec 31, 20142 votes

I would like to see hear your fact and calculation.

Btw please teach us how to counter the almighty Yasuo.This may have sounded like Im making fun of you(which I kinda am),but still I would like to hear what you have to say.

Stars ShaperDec 31, 20147 votes

There have been plenty in the EUW Forums a couple of months ago, when the nerfs to Yasuo started. I'll try to be short here. Might not cover all, it's a fast placed thing here.

The double crit chance is his only steroid while other Melee AD Carries have 2 (Fiora, Trynda, Yi)
He is forced to build 2 heavy defensive items in roder to survive enough to deal damage
He is the only Melee AD Carry that is vulnerable 100% of the time: other MADCs have a full unvulnerability skill.
Wind Wall has a 20% uptime at max level. I don't see how this is threat, he either has a good timing and so he should be effective or you lure it out.
His dashes have a CD in terms of enemy availablility and he is targettable anyway.
His ultimate relies on a short window and a telegraphed skillshot ot either him dashing in 5 enemies putting him at high risk since he also has to do even more to actually kill anything.
He has a good team sinergy with the right champions.. well there si plenty of wombo combos, Amumu+ Vel'koz is nearly a free win and easier to deal.

Now, in terms of lanes. Any enemy has an advantage on him. Melees win trades by their innate tankyness/sustain/damage because Yasuo doesn't excell in any of this and most common toplaners can simply jump on him and force him back, his build path also forces him to focus on crit and he will not build Life Steal fast enough. In midlane any ranged can make his shield proc at will with an AA (I love doing this on Xerath) and even the guys that should be countered by his Wind Wall (mostly Lux and Vel'Koz) can either lure it or simply wait for their CDs to end (Wind Wall has a huge CD for a reason).

Now, are there champions that Yasuo hard counters? Yes (Don't remeber specific cases) but that happens for all the champions. The fact that Yasuo is a strong character in a good team doesn't mean he is OP.

RikariDec 31, 20143 votes

play Yorick he is anti champion you make sense,though it pisses me off that they can stop your fatal ultimate and save someone's life like a support fizz. Only chance a melee fighter has is tankiness. I fear the day when Gnar,Kalista,Vayne and Azir are the staples of the top lane,then we will need ranged tanks. Braum plain denies aggression on the bot lane,like free kills. When Yasuo dashes to your face and places a windwall in the 3mm between you,he also denies aggression. Personally i don't find wind wall problematic,just braum's shield on the bot lane,where there are guaranteed ranged champs. Deletes most aggression.

ShinBladesDec 30, 20141 votes

pick maokai, irelia like in lcs.

FalconPawwwwnchDec 30, 201427 votes

Of course we have to play those champions because those champions don't have any counterplay either lol

The only way to deal with ranged champions right now is to pick melees who have absolutely no way of messing up

How is that good for the game again?

ShinBladesDec 30, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Of course we have to play those champions because those champions don't have any counterplay either lol

The only way to deal with ranged champions right now is to pick melees who have absolutely no way of messing up

How is that good for the game again?

its actually good in a way since they there is always tank>aoe> split push> assasin> ranged meta to keep it fresh

JunkοDec 31, 20147 votes

splitpush counters assassins? an assassin will instantly kill anybody who splitpushes if they don't back in time. plus AD assassins are natural splitpushers too

Genova FearbaneDec 31, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Of course we have to play those champions because those champions don't have any counterplay either lol

The only way to deal with ranged champions right now is to pick melees who have absolutely no way of messing up

How is that good for the game again?

Yeah cause there is no possible way for anyone to ever beat a Yasuo or Braum ever, right? Absolutely no counter-play except WALKING PAST THE FREAKING WALL/SHIELD.