Boards›Gameplay

These Lee changes really aren't even that big of a deal honestly

HateDaddy··101 votes·5,843 views

The only thing these changes do is give his peeling a little more impact.

I don't know why people think he's suddenly going to be broken with this. All it does is restore a little bit of late game power to him after they removed his late game presence completely when getting rid of his attack speed slow. The AS slow removal was a good thing but this doesn't change him at all, honestly. To be able to use this effectively means he has to plan on kicking a tank into a backline, which isn't easy for starters and typically requires a lot of things to line up for him to do it in the first place.

I'm not crazy about the idea of buffing Lee either but I'm fine with this change, it's not going to do much. Just makes his peeling a little bit stronger and rewarding, considering all Lee has late game is his R to peel or insec someone.

Stop low elo circlejerking over every little thing, especially when it's not a big deal. Riot is also buffing a lot of champions, the jungle is still much more diverse than it's ever been, not to mention items like Randuins and Thornmail nerfs are actually big hits to Lees late game as well since he usually builds tanky late game to survive some burst. If it's a full damage Lee, I don't know why on earth you'd expect something full damage not to do damage.

Honestly, you people just QQ about the dumbest shit. Meanwhile you think champions like Diana and Rengar are weak/fun to play against lol.

134 Comments

Shadow Gilgamesh41 votes

I'm fine with his passive changes, since it makes his ability-AA balance a little smoother and better.

However, the fact that the ult ALREADY could just say "FUCK YOU" to any good engage on it's own is enough, it didn't need to be any better.

HateDaddy14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shadow Gilgamesh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KG9Qc84k,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-08-08T00:51:19.620+0000)

I'm fine with his passive changes, since it makes his ability-AA balance a little smoother and better.

However, the fact that the ult ALREADY could just say "FUCK YOU" to any good engage on it's own is enough, it didn't need to be any better.

What lol

So a champion burns THEIR ULTIMATE to disengage and you have a problem with this? Thresh can do it with a basic ability, Janna can do it with a basic ability, Alistar has TWO abilities that can do it that are basic abilities. If he's using his ult to completely disengage, it's his loss.

Shadow Gilgamesh32 votes

Getting booted miles from the team, knocking up any of the other teammates he bumps into is FAR better than Janna or Alistar's knockup, though fair point with Alistar's headbutt.

But Lee Sin's ult is lower CD than a lot of the good engage ults like Wukongs, so it's STILL costing him less in down time than the would be attacker, so it doesn't ALSO need to chunk anyone the engaging tank or offtank gets kicked into more than it already does with a 200% bonus AD ratio.

Loken Stoneheart12 votes

{quoted}

What lol

So a champion burns THEIR ULTIMATE to disengage and you have a problem with this? Thresh can do it with a basic ability, Janna can do it with a basic ability, Alistar has TWO abilities that can do it that are basic abilities. If he's using his ult to completely disengage, it's his loss.

Dragon's Rage RANGE: 375 / 1200 COOLDOWN: 90 / 75 / 60

With no CDR, of course.

There is no world where you teamfight twice in a minute.

What Lee obviously, really needed was to do 20some% of YOUR tank's HP to you, when he yet again fucks up and manages to somehow not make it to you despite every button on his keyboard either manipulating his positioning, or an enemies.

Anrui3 votes

You forgot to mention the ungodly amount of damage that his ult also does, even without the ratio.

Crett7 votes

{quoted}

You forgot to mention the ungodly amount of damage that his ult also does, even without the ratio.

You know what I used to build on Lee Sin back when Cleaver had flat armor pen?

Armor Pen Quints and Marks + item 3071 item 3134 item 3714 item 3142 item 3074

I would auto an ADC and then press R and they would die from full health

PiVoRx6 votes

Alistar and Janna dont one shot non-tanks while having only a sightstone in inventory. Lee is broken as fuck and Riot just polishes his ass for #LCSBIGPLAYS in worlds.

Stormfire877 votes

If you're getting one shot by a lee sin with just a sightstone you don't even deserve bronze

Ulquiorra9954 votes

Firstly, that ultimate the champion burns has a cool down so low that it will be up for the next fight.

Second, said champion already has more options than anyone else. Call me when Janna or Alistar can send the opposing team's carry into yours agains a competent opponent without burning flash. Flash, you know, that thing with 5x the cool down of Dragon Rage?

Conturbatio14 votes

Okay, let's see here, I'm gonna use MATH (not meth) to calculate Lee Sin's damage using his ULT ONLY (with the pbe buffs). At max rank, his ult deals 600 + 200% Bonus AD + 21% of the target's hp to other targets. Assuming Lee Sin builds 200 AD (item 3074item 3035+ another AD item), and ults a 3.5k HP tank; His ult would deal 600 + 2'200 + 3500'0.21 = 600 + 400 + 735 = 1735 potential AoE physical damage.

AHeroNamedHawke14 votes

{quoted}

Okay, let's see here, I'm gonna use MATH (not meth) to calculate Lee Sin's damage using his ULT ONLY (with the pbe buffs). At max rank, his ult deals 600 + 200% Bonus AD + 21% of the target's hp to other targets. Assuming Lee Sin builds 200 AD (item 3074item 3035+ another AD item), and ults a 3.5k HP tank; His ult would deal 600 + 2'200 + 3500'0.21 = 600 + 400 + 735 = 1735 potential AoE physical damage.

1-2k of that tank's hp is base health (i dunno what level youre going for), his ult only scales on bonus health

DeusVult5 votes

Yes, but Late game when he has the same build, an he punts the 4.5K total health tank in their crowded backline, he gets a double up; He peels for his back line while destroying the enemies because 600+(2200)+(25000.21)=1525 potential AOE damage

Lee didnt need this change at all

3sTbGoP7ES3 votes

Lee Sin ult will scale with tank's Bonus hp not full hp. Are you talking about a tank with total 3.5k hp or bonus 3.5k hp?

If 3-4 ad items lee ults a mundo with 2000 Bonus hp to the team. Then the damage would be 600 + 400 + 420 = 1420 physical damage. This damage also gets reduced by armour stat. So I don't think it is bad considering you have 4 ad items on a squishy lee and he manages to pull that off.

ZombeezyJeezy12 votes

I'm only here cuz it's a HateDaddy thread. I have no constructive input because I am a lowly Silver 2 and anything I say is invalidated by this fact.

Heil HateDaddy.

Lugg4 votes

The sarcasm is strong with this one.

Lajneen6 votes

He's still going to be useless.

TurquoiseYoshi5 votes

He won't be useless, but he won't be top tier like he was in his prime.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

He won't be useless, but he won't be top tier like he was in his prime.

No of course he won't because TANKS ARE STILL GOING TO BE GOOD. The jungle diversity is significantly better now than it was when Lee was the best in s4/s5, this suddenly isn't going to change.

TurquoiseYoshi5 votes

Cinderhulk changes. The Cinderhulk changes are killing the late game potential of most tank junglers. And since most tank junglers are based towards the late game, it's an overall nerf. The top junglers now are Runeglaive, a few Devourer, and Rek'Sai.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Cinderhulk changes. The Cinderhulk changes are killing the late game potential of most tank junglers. And since most tank junglers are based towards the late game, it's an overall nerf. The top junglers now are Runeglaive, a few Devourer, and Rek'Sai.

Late game tank junglers are still incredibly powerful because of CC and their raw teamfight power, not to mention many of them have innate durability as it is. Late game tank junglers are still the gods of teamfights, that hasn't changed, nor will it ever. The only thing that has changed is they aren't buying cinderhulk and hitting their late game significantly faster, which was a bit absurd. They will still be fine.

Competitively speaking, I doubt devourer will ever be good because junglers in competitive play just don't get that kind of farm.

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

Shyvana is a Devourer jungler who has had use in competitive play. Fun Fact: Shyvana is also banned in two-thirds of ranked games in Plat+.

Cinderhulk will still be built due to it's Sunfire Cape properties and health (even if the health is lowered), and its low cost, and the fact that junglers will still have to use an item slot to make its predecessor. Late game tank junglers have nearly fallen out of competitive play, with Gragas being the only one left. There aren't that many tank junglers that can do their role better than a top laner (Mao'kai, Naut, Gnar) or a support (Alistar, Naut again, Braum).

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Shyvana is a Devourer jungler who has had use in competitive play. Fun Fact: Shyvana is also banned in two-thirds of ranked games in Plat+.

Cinderhulk will still be built due to it's Sunfire Cape properties and health (even if the health is lowered), and its low cost, and the fact that junglers will still have to use an item slot to make its predecessor. Late game tank junglers have nearly fallen out of competitive play, with Gragas being the only one left. There aren't that many tank junglers that can do their role better than a top laner (Mao'kai, Naut, Gnar) or a support (Alistar, Naut again, Braum).

Shyv was played as a top laner, not for devourer (to the best of my recollection, don't quote me on that one). But in general, tank junglers don't see much in competitive play because some of the harder scaling ones like Amumu are incredibly gold dependent. And in competitive play, junglers just don't get a lot of gold because they basically sacrifice everything they have to everyone else. As for solo queue, I agree, devourer is incredibly powerful at the moment on Shyv and Kayle. But cinderhulk will still be decent, they just toned down the retarded power spike tank junglers were getting when they completed it.

Tanks are still going to be good in this game, tank junglers will be decent still. But in competitive play, I wouldn't expect a supreme amount of diversity because of how starved junglers are and there isn't a large amount of champions who function well with low income in the jungle, tank and non tank junglers alike.

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

Hai played Shyvana a few times recently.

I just feel like the jungle cannot settle into diversity. Either a specific item is OP, or a specific champion.

A Palmtop Tiger6 votes

To be honest. I completely forgot about Lee Sin. I haven't seen a Lee Sin played in my solo queue games for like 3 months. The jungle is dominated by other junglers with more consistent cc, tanking abilities, and damage. Not seeing the big deal about the small buff to his R seeing as it is based off % EXTRA hp.

Saianna7 votes

It is still a free buff.

Some say it's compensation for his eyeballs, others say that compensation was meant for losing other balls...

That buff is clearly for LCS or whatever PRO stage just to increase views.

Zero Engine1 votes

[deleted]

Saianna3 votes

By that logic about half of champions ultimates should be buffed....

Lee is beloved son of Riot, that's what matters. If he was hated by Riot, he'd recieve similar changes as Evelynn did (aka nerf everything and force her to play tank)

Zero Engine1 votes

[deleted]

Saianna1 votes

Before i start, have in mind I'm writing this post after sleepless night in heated room (couldn't open a window, cause of my stupid 3 months old cat that might jump out of the 2nd floor..), so my explanation might be bit hazy.

Being difficult to play champion should not be a reason for plain buffs. Mastering difficult champion is more rewarding, as he offers more options and ways to play than basic, binary champion.

This buff is contradicting. They want Lee to become stronger for those who have yet to get good with Lee, while Lee masters will abuse this free power with their "awesome no-scope 360 flash-dash" ults.

Tristana is pretty good example, as her ultimate is kind of similar to Lees'. Her R offers kind of less than Lees R and her stats are worse in every aspect (except cast range, as she's ranged).

Lee Sins kit has already quite alot of power here'n'there. &hp on Q, slow on W, shield + lifesteal on E, 2.0 AD scaling on R. I really don't believe he needs even more power.

Daaah, it's super hard to explain what i'm trying to say :S

Point is, Lee Sins ultimate has already exceptional usefullnes, knockback, stun, high damage, awesome disengage on low cooldown. This buff will just make him "press R on tank in general direction of squishes to win". Yea squishy targets will survive, but it'll make them on the verge of dying. With just R.

Now on Evelynn, yeah in Pro stages she might be good, but what about low level players? Her kit doesn't promote playing her as an assassin. Actually she has to build tankier that Malphite in most of the games. That's the reason why I'm salty here. Riot had no idea how to deal with her, so they have removed most of her power and forced her to be frontline tank/bruiser.

If there are champions who are kind of difficult to play because of their kit, that require buffs it's Evelynn, Twitch & Elise. I do know that Elise recieved buffs, but that doesn't make her easier to play. She's still difficult to play and her whole combo has rather mediocre damage. So by that "Lee Sin buff logic", she should also recieve buffs so low level players could be more effective, right?

Zero Engine1 votes

[deleted]

Saianna1 votes

I'm sorry i mean you no disrespect, but you wall of text if too owerwhelming for me.. I've just read few lines of text, hope you'll excause me (at least for now).

My point was: Lee was always good (maybe not lately). Riot gave him free damage on his already amazing ultimate. For free.

And there are other champions who should be buffed instead of him. Not that they are useless/unviable/unplayable..

Trist example. I've made it because of 2 reasons:

  1. her ultimate is +/- similar.
  2. She recieved rework "not that loong ago".

In first case Tristanas ultimate is weaker in every aspect than Lees. I know it's meant to disengage or peel off pesky bruisers, but if that huge-ass cannon shot is meant to push back already tanky targets, then why it has such terrible base damage/scaling (that deals AP damage, I think)?

And second, as champion gets reworked you expect that he'll be balanced. Pre-rework trist was strong, no doubt here. But AFTER rework she's very weak & fragile. Riot has removed her AP build, yet they left her ultimate to how it's been in beta.

Last thing: I used to be ARAM-only player. Which mea METAS weren't really effective against me. But truth be told I liked tank-meta. Am I fan of assassin meta? Not really... Reason why i mentioned Eve was cause i'm still really salty of her major rework which removed true stealth. I wasn't even Eve main back then, it's just... They gimped her into tank-bruiser with little-to-no assassin traits (and then they further nerfed her just to stop flood of angry kids threads who were too gredy to buy pink ward). Oh I also said about Elise.. Yeah now I see why you connected the dots as me = assassin-meta fan. Na na naah, I've mentioned her, because gameplay wise she's just as difficult as Lee, yet far less "hurting". You either build her as a tank and just spam stuns, or you build her as an assassin and be pretty much 1hit KO, no damage, dead weight for a team.

TL;DR Lee buffs don't follow logic of balancing, where there are other champions who require buffs more. I have no real meta-crush. Anything is fine as long as it's not ADC :)

FantasySniper2 votes

It's not that small of a buff when it can increase damage by upwards of 90 with any slightly tanky opponent.

Then it hits the non-tanky carry who takes the full brunt of the damage, and... you see my point here?

Toa of Death5 votes

People just don't like the words "Lee" and "buff" in the same sentence.

Elite Urf4 votes

Lee Sin is extremely balanced. You just need to learn how to counterplay him. He is pretty easy actually when it comes to counterplaying. Just dodge his Q and run. Simple as that. They really need to look further into these buffs and maybe increase them. I personally think buffing his Q is a very good move.

MohawkBird20 votes

[deleted]

Narasimha4 votes

Eh, to be fair, theres not that many people who can use Lee that well either.

Ratbert7 votes

High skill cap is not an excuse for being nigh impossible to escape or to be overloaded. Quite frankly, it's trivial to wardhop>q>q to travel about 1000+ units in a second.

Narasimha3 votes

And yet, for every player that can do it, there are 4 that mess up the timing, or do it too slow, or just flat out miss. High skill cap IS the reason to have more mechanics. Otherwise, theres no point to having a higher skill cap.

Ratbert5 votes

For every skillshot that hits, depending on the speed of the projectile, 2-10 miss. Others have an actually slow travel time and get outran, or cost mana which gets depleted quickly. Sure you can pretend chaining skills is difficult, but how hard is someone like diana, ahri or lb then? Again, high skill cap is not an excuse for more numbers because "it's harder" as everyone would simply pour hours into mastering one champ (lee) and they would dominate gold+(like they did for a season or two), warping the entire game unfairly.

Narasimha4 votes

Again, high skill cap is not an excuse for more numbers because "it's harder" as everyone would simply pour hours into mastering one champ (lee) and they would dominate gold+(like they did for a season or two), warping the entire game unfairly.

Look at it this way. If a high skill champion and a low skill champion both produce the same results, then what is the purpose of the high skill champion? Why take all the time to master them? Why even have them? In the end, high skill SHOULD produce higher results because of the higher effort needed.

And your example is quite perfect. Despite Lee's high pick rate, people CAN'T master him easily. Which means that its not such a simple task. It won't warp the game for the simple reason that everyone can't do it.

Ratbert7 votes

While high skill cap champs should provide more benefits when played at the cap, wardhop>q>q>r is clearly (hopefully) not the cap. It already provides massive benefits for four button presses, three of which involve targeted skills. If lee's ult wasn't targeted or low cd or lee used mana, sure the buff would make sense, but since lee has all three, there isn't really a time when it's not up for a fight. I mean numbers as in just raw power and a basic numerical advantage that requires no input. Things like movespeed or ratios fall into here.

High pick rate means that lots of people, when forced to jungle, default into lee "win" and play miserably because they are inexperienced and lose. He has a ludicrous normal and very high ranked pick rate according to lolking in all ranks, which means that either raw power, personal preference, or "because pros did it" is attracting many players to pick lee.

Obviously, champs aren't mastered in 3-5 games, which is why many will lose with lee and drop him. It's not that they can't, but they don't have to or want to more often than not. However, as many have supposedly seen in LCS or other big tournaments, lee is a staple pick and incredibly powerful in the right hands who probably have played him hundreds of times if not more. He was so powerful that he broke diversity, which shouldn't happen. Quite frankly, he did warp the game back then as seeing a tank jungler/eve was like seeing a four leafed clover. Equally skilled players playing different champs should be on relatively equal footing barring hard counters.

Du Ma Mi8 votes

{quoted}

"Just dodge his Q and run."

Dodge his 5 second cooldown Q and run away from his ward hops. I'm sorry but their are not a lot of champions that can actually escape Lee Sin.

Cough Riven Cough

Lugg2 votes

Meddler stated that the change is mainly to help Lee Sin players that are of average ability. Instead of trying to inSec someone, you can just kick the front-line tank back into their team for some AoE damage.

The only time I could see this actually being significant is if you kick a 5k plus health tank. Then you could do so pretty decent damage to the enemy team.

LilxPaprika8 votes

{quoted}

Meddler stated that the change is mainly to help Lee Sin players that are of average ability. Instead of trying to inSec someone, you can just kick the front-line tank back into their team for some AoE damage.

The only time I could see this actually being significant is if you kick a 5k plus health tank. Then you could do so pretty decent damage to the enemy team.

that's what we dont need imo dumbing down the game. 1 button ftw, its not that hard especially when hes so mobile just flash to angle and wombo. grouping is too heavily punished in this game. you're complained at by team mates when you arent near and when you do stand too close your whole team gets wombo. too much of a fine line imo. plus they are nerfing armor at same time. i dont get it.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

that's what we dont need imo dumbing down the game. 1 button ftw, its not that hard especially when hes so mobile just flash to angle and wombo. grouping is too heavily punished in this game. you're complained at by team mates when you arent near and when you do stand too close your whole team gets wombo. too much of a fine line imo. plus they are nerfing armor at same time. i dont get it.

Being good at this game is a fine line? Do you clump up when the enemy has an Amumu or a Sejuani? Of course you don't lol

Stop acting like this is a big deal, it isn't. Riot is also nerfing armor so when bruiser items come out, bruisers with reworked kits (and hopefully stronger after finals changes) won't just stack tank items and maw everything. Tanks will be fine regardless because true tanks already have access to insane steroids, not to mention that's also why riot is giving them direct armor/hp buffs per level just to make sure the armor nerfs aren't too overboard, which they aren't.

Lugg1 votes

OMG, I may actually have to upvote a HateDaddy post. LOL

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

OMG, I may actually have to upvote a HateDaddy post. LOL

You should always be upvoting me because I'm diamond

Lugg4 votes

You went and ruined the moment again.

Shroom Junkie2 votes

The thing is though, Lee Sin is meant to be a dominant early game champion. Or at least, that's how Riot has described him before. He isn't supposed to have late game power, and %maxhealth damage(quite a bit of max health - 18-24% I think it was - plus multi-target if he lands it correctly, though I'll admit that can be hard), gives him that late game power, because of 1. tons of base damage, and 2. champs obviously have a ton more health late-game than they do early.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by HateDaddy

Permaslow passive, point and click harass that can crit, AOE global ult, huge heal + cleanse
Gameplay154 comments
327
votes
Yo roit, now that we have a new SR map that's been updated
Maps & Modes86 comments
322
votes
After 5 years of League, I am calling it quits at the end of the season.
Gameplay333 comments
279
votes
We are almost at season 6 and there are still champs released in season 2 that cost 6300 IP.
Gameplay112 comments
261
votes
Daily reminder that max % HP true damage is loaded with counterplay and counter builds.
Gameplay194 comments
244
votes
I don't understand people on this board
Gameplay183 comments
232
votes