I’d much rather lane against conquerer than grasp of the undying

HateDaddy·Feb 4, 2019·2 votes·989 views

Unlike conquerer, grasp heals and is often taken on champions that are much beefier. Unlike conquerer, grasp does noticeable damage early-mid lane phase. Grasp might fall off but by the time it does, the champion with grasp has bullied you into submission. Not only that, conquerer is the only thing that allows bruisers to lane against tanks and eventually do damage to them. So while I think conquerer is lame in its own right, I think grasp is just as dumb and should warrant the same kind of hate. There’s nothing dumber than Poppy passive/grasp proc auto attack taking 1/4th of my hp at early levels

17 Comments

MoonscourgeFeb 4, 20193 votes

Grasp doesn't infinitely refresh while in combat, only once every 4 seconds. Heal is negligible at any point of the game, especially against people who will just maul you in a couple of hits anyway because you can't win these extended trades anyway.

HateDaddyFeb 4, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snake of Avarice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KErtirLt,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-04T17:03:44.672+0000)

Grasp doesn't infinitely refresh while in combat, only once every 4 seconds. Heal is negligible at any point of the game, especially against people who will just maul you in a couple of hits anyway because you can't win these extended trades anyway.

Sounds great, but only an idiot sits there and continues to fight someone while conq is refreshing. Most champions that take grasp have easy disengage spells and can simply stand on top of the wave and beat you down slowly, and the moment you proc conq, they disengage.

RalanrFeb 4, 20192 votes

Don’t most champions with Conquerer have ways to keep up or prevent disengagement to varying degrees?

Darius Hook, Irelia Dash, Riven dash, etc?

HateDaddyFeb 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Don’t most champions with Conquerer have ways to keep up or prevent disengagement to varying degrees?

Darius Hook, Irelia Dash, Riven dash, etc?

Yes but the burden is on them to stay on top of you since they want to continue an extended trade. Remember, during most of lane phase, especially early on, it really isn’t ideal to chase champions because of minuon aggro. If, as Maokai, Malphite, Nautilus, Shen, etc., I can play around your spells (which is independent of keystones), then I proc grasp and hit you. When you try to jump on me, that’s when I disengage.

That’s not to say there isn’t room for these champions to play around it, and to some extent lane bullies will just be lane bullies. Darius and Riven could take whatever they want and they will bully most lanes.

RalanrFeb 4, 20191 votes

The burden should be on them to continue the fight. Aggressive actions have, and always should be, the more riskier and difficult to pull off.

NemeBroFeb 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The burden should be on them to continue the fight. Aggressive actions have, and always should be, the more riskier and difficult to pull off.

"My champions should be inherently easier to succeed with and better than the champions I lane against."

RalanrFeb 4, 20191 votes

That can apply to tanks AND fighters.

If tanks have no way to trade with fighters, then fighters are inherently easier to succeed with and better than the champions (tanks) they lane against.

If fighters have too big a disadvantage against tanks, then tanks are inherently easier to succeed with and better than the champions (fighters) they lane against.

Top lane has been a constant balance of this. But even then, aggression should always be the riskier and harder to pull off, because aggression opens up more mistakes.

How many fucking multiplayer PvP games do you see that favor defense over offense? Now how many of those games are popular? And many of those popular games are in separate genres?

It’s not many. Offense is the prominent choice, but that doesn’t mean it’s the easiest choice. It just means that it’s the most entertaining.

xDogMeatxFeb 4, 20191 votes

grasp is for poke autos not sustained combat. but yes grasp should have more relevance after laning instead of a "i gotta survive lane" rune. like a lvl 11 how garen can regen like a mini item 3083 (ok not that strong) i mean it needs to have a scaling spike or something to keep a equilibrium with conqueror.

RalanrFeb 4, 20192 votes

In bruiser vs bruiser match ups, I can see why both would prefer Conquerer, since that entails both will actually try and keep fighting to get as much damage as possible in their trades (and a potential kill when you use it with ignite). The point of the rune is to win trades.

Grasp doesn’t need to win trades. It just needs to proc for the heal and then the user go retreat if continuing is bad. It has always been this, now they added an infinit health scaling aspect (only 5 health per proc) and (I don’t remember if this is true) bumped up the heal and damage by 1%.

Grasp is a survival rune. Most top laners hate it when their opponent survives, or even comes out of a trade better.

PoskeFeb 4, 20191 votes

This is so innacurate it hurts

If you want to win lane take Grasp

RalanrFeb 4, 20193 votes

Yeah because you have a better chance of surviving. With Conquerer you’re only getting more damage if you stay in a fight.

Laning isn’t always about constantly fighting. Sometimes it’s better to survive, hence why Grasp, the sustain rune, is a better option for that.

HateDaddyFeb 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

In bruiser vs bruiser match ups, I can see why both would prefer Conquerer, since that entails both will actually try and keep fighting to get as much damage as possible in their trades (and a potential kill when you use it with ignite). The point of the rune is to win trades.

Grasp doesn’t need to win trades. It just needs to proc for the heal and then the user go retreat if continuing is bad. It has always been this, now they added an infinit health scaling aspect (only 5 health per proc) and (I don’t remember if this is true) bumped up the heal and damage by 1%.

Grasp is a survival rune. Most top laners hate it when their opponent survives, or even comes out of a trade better.

Grasp will straight up out-trade conquerer for the majority of lane phase. Yes, if you’re going to continue fighting the guy with conquerer, then you will lose. But most champions that take grasp usually trade in very short windows, which further empowers grasp over conquerer.

RalanrFeb 4, 20191 votes

I know. That’s why bruisers would prefer Conquerer vs Conquerer because they don’t or don’t want to trade in short windows. While tanks (who are more likely to take grasp top) prefer to trade in short windows because they lose in long fights.

People keep telling me tanks should win in long drawn out fights. But that isn’t the case. The longer a fight lasts, the worse it is for a tank.

xDogMeatxFeb 4, 20191 votes

thats like saying i would rather not wear armor than wear some at all??? conqueror nulls armor and boosts damage, which decreases armor values if your buying armor (off chance a sylas MR) its gonna decrease your buy by 20% (due to true damage reason).