and increase the gold cost by like 700-900 to compensate for this change
So it would be 120 AP + 10% CDR and +6% MS and an active thats useful for finding enemies all for 3100-3300 gold compared to DFG's cost of 3100 on live.
This change honestly lines up pretty nicely with a burst mage play style. Find your targets and get MS to get in and out fights faster.
DFG users that would love this change:
Daedalus8717 votesAnd what do you do for the supports that built Twin Shadows before, but now can't because of cost?
Kingsgrave3 votesAnd what do you do for the supports that built Twin Shadows before, but now can't because of cost?
How often is Twin Shadows purchased on supports? Do you have stats for that?
cshakes6 votesHow often is Twin Shadows purchased on supports? Do you have stats for that?
AbstracT Theory4 votesmic drop
Malix Farwin1 votes[{quoted}](name=ExRa Godzic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K3Baqn1Y,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-28T09:48:11.564+0000)
mic drop
lol you didn't read the stats just saw he posted a link.
cshakes2 votes[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K3Baqn1Y,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-28T17:12:04.488+0000)
lol you didn't read the stats just saw he posted a link.
The question that I replied to was "How often is Twin Shadows purchased on supports? Do you have stats for that?" and I gave a link to the stats. Also, *she.
This Fkin Guy3 votesThere are no females on the internet.
Malix Farwin2 votesSo janna morgana and nami. of the 3 only 1 has a 35% chance of actually building it and is a really powerful support without it. It isnt even a common or core build on any of those champs either. Cant just post statistics without actually looking at them
cshakes2 votes[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K3Baqn1Y,comment-id=0005000000000002,timestamp=2015-01-28T17:10:53.359+0000)
So janna morgana and nami. of the 3 only 1 has a 35% chance of actually building it and is a really powerful support without it. It isnt even a common or core build on any of those champs either. Cant just post statistics without actually looking at them
CynicalGiant asked "How often is Twin Shadows purchased on supports? Do you have stats for that?" and I gave a link.
Malix Farwin1 votesCynicalGiant asked "How often is Twin Shadows purchased on supports? Do you have stats for that?" and I gave a link.
the problem is you a link with raw stats that were not even broken down and calculated. good job you do not know how data works
cshakes2 votes[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K3Baqn1Y,comment-id=000500000000000200000000,timestamp=2015-01-28T18:32:09.079+0000)
the problem is you a link with raw stats that were not even broken down and calculated. good job you do not know how data works
Look, I just pointed at the first instance of stats that I could think of. Sure, they weren't broken down and calculated, but my point was that the statistics existed. Relax.
A Tall Joke1 votesPretty much this... Plus increased mobility isn't what champions who lost DFG are looking for (LeBlanc? Fizz? Veigar?)
Neo Cyrus6 votes3300 would be too much for how practically effective it would be.
But I agree that mages need some items to fill the void. There was already a lacking of items, especially anti tank items now that DFG is gone.
Kingsgrave1 votes[{quoted}](name=Neo Cyrus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K3Baqn1Y,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-01-27T18:12:51.494+0000)
3300 would be too much for how practically effective it would be.
But I agree that mages need some items to fill the void. There was already a lacking of items, especially anti tank items now that DFG is gone.
I originally thought about 3000 but considering it gives CDR, High AP and some MS with a low CD sight and slow tool if you hit champions with it, 3300 seems pretty fair.
DFG is also already around 95% cost efficient with just the 120 AP and 10% CDR so the cost of 3300 seems pretty fair.
Sightless667 votesDFG was a niche item for specific champions and was not used outside of those champions. It could afford to lose a little cost efficiency because it was the only thing giving this really powerful active. Twin shadows does not have that same synergy with anyone. There is no one who needs Twin Shadows to really complete their kit. It needs cost-effectiveness to compete with other options. 3,100 is as high as you could make it, and you'd likely need to go a bit lower than that.
SpecterVonBaren6 votesI enjoy getting it on Nami, Janna and Lulu so I wouldn't support a change where it becomes this expensive.
Stonington5 votesSi, League of Ghosties por favor.
xLegendary Troll4 votesGreat idea. The costs are a little too high. 3000 would be perfect for me. If I wanted MS then I would get lich bane
Kingsgrave1 votes[{quoted}](name=xLegendary Troll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K3Baqn1Y,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-01-27T19:02:50.909+0000)
Great idea. The costs are a little too high. 3000 would be perfect for me. If I wanted MS then I would get lich bane
3000 would make it like 105-110% cost efficient
PentaJump10 votes3000 would make it like 105-110% cost efficient
It needs to be cost efficient. Its active is no where near as useful as Zhonyas or DFG.
DeusVult1 votesAll tank items are 80-90% gold efficient without their actives/passives
And we tanks have lived with that for ages
Ariel the Cruel1 votesDon't forget: tank stats have diminishing returns. And with all the %health damage going around, Even health has diminishing returns.
Auz the Ripper1 votesAwwww, Cute little tanks will you ever figure riot simply hates you totally and completely? You slow down the game and make teamfights last more than .25 seconds We can't have that can we?
SmokingPuffin4 votesIt's interesting for mids.
The thing is, Twin Shadows is often a good support item buy. Someone like Sona, Zyra, or Annie love the combination of AP and utility they can get, and bumping that item up past 3k probably prices it out of their ability to buy it in a reasonable time frame.
Stonington1 votesIt's interesting for mids.
The thing is, Twin Shadows is often a good support item buy. Someone like Sona, Zyra, or Annie love the combination of AP and utility they can get, and bumping that item up past 3k probably prices it out of their ability to buy it in a reasonable time frame.
Come on. As a pretty avid Sona and Zyra player I've never bought, been tempted to buy, or seen/read any high elo players ever recommend or buy ghosties. On Annie it might be a little better, still, it's not even close to being a core item.
SmokingPuffin2 votesI don't think it's core on any of them, but it's situationally useful for all.
Sona might not want it anymore now that her AP ratios got nerfed again. Not enough pro games with her to say there's a consensus core build right now. Looking on probuilds, twins are in there for some players, but certainly not as often as Mikael's or Lich Bane, which seem to be the core items now.
Zyra certainly won't buy it until third item, probably fourth, because she wants pen stuff first. She will probably only consider it as fourth item, after getting Liandry's, Void Staff, and Morello's. Not that many games go that long.
Annie thinks it's spiffy, great tool for enabling good Tibbers. Annie is also one of the few mages that doesn't think Morello's is amazing, because her mana bar is really stable. She can consider to buy it first, although I think it's usually better to finish FQC.
Stonington1 votesI don't think it's core on any of them, but it's situationally useful for all.
Sona might not want it anymore now that her AP ratios got nerfed again. Not enough pro games with her to say there's a consensus core build right now. Looking on probuilds, twins are in there for some players, but certainly not as often as Mikael's or Lich Bane, which seem to be the core items now.
Zyra certainly won't buy it until third item, probably fourth, because she wants pen stuff first. She will probably only consider it as fourth item, after getting Liandry's, Void Staff, and Morello's. Not that many games go that long.
Annie thinks it's spiffy, great tool for enabling good Tibbers. Annie is also one of the few mages that doesn't think Morello's is amazing, because her mana bar is really stable. She can consider to buy it first, although I think it's usually better to finish FQC.
It's more likely Zyra would get Rylai's after Liandry's for a slow, hp, and more AP. Or like you said, finish or a FQC for additional catch potential. Also keep in my the Talisman and Righteous Glory items being built all the time on supports now. Ghosties is, at best, a 3rd rate catch item for support.
I don't doubt there are situation times you'll want to build it. Like there's situational times you'll want to build Ardent Censer or Ohmwrecker. Overall giving ghosties 120AP would be a net positive. Mid laner would build it quite a bit more and supports would barely notice it was gone.
5G8Nri0B541 votesSomeone like Sona, Zyra, or Annie love the combination of AP and utility they can get
And Vel'koz......
Wînter Fox3 votesRiot hire this man
DanofDemacia2 votesI like it
LilxPaprika2 votesoh god as if fizz wasnt hard enough to get a hold of with lich bane mov speed.
my poor udyr gets kited to much
TheKingDodo2 votessupport 
: yay!
Silents4292 votesHow about no? No reason to take a support item away from the supports because people are complaining about the DFG.
Oleandervine1 votesI don't think Twin Shadows is the way to go here; they honestly should just keep the same DFG build path of a Needlessly Large Rod and that book, but just invent a new item to fill the slot that retains the 120 AP and 10% CDR.
lxlLilybellelxl1 votesI don't think Twin Shadows is the way to go here; they honestly should just keep the same DFG build path of a Needlessly Large Rod and that book, but just invent a new item to fill the slot that retains the 120 AP and 10% CDR.
maybe 20% CDR even? I mean for that much gold 10% CDR is not worth when boots of lucidity give 15%. Rabadons gives 30% AP and zhonyas gives a nice active and bonus stats. 10% CDR just doesn't seem cost efficient. I mean I could build morello for 80AP, mana regen, 20%CDR AND a passive
lxlLilybellelxl1 votesI'm a support main who turns to this item on occasion for its great utility stats. Increasing the cost would beyond put it out of a supports budget. Besides I can't see this being a core item for anyone. While I do agree a 120 AP item is needed to fill the gap, I can't justify Twin Shadows being it.
5G8Nri0B541 votesEh, even if it's cost and slot efficient, it's too expensive. Especially if you're the support-ish bot lane type AP like Annie. You're never going to save the gold to ever get that item, it's enough of a luxury buy as it is.
Rather they just create a replacement item. And hope to god it doesn't make Fizz and Leblanc unbearable.
YOU BEEN WARNED1 votesNo wtf the active is supposed to be niche, that would be even more common than DFG.
Add a new item, twin shadows is really nice where it is that supports and non-APCs pick it up.
HellStrikerZ1 votesI say make a new AP items combining attack speed and spell vamp or movementt speed, thinking of fizz / katarina / Azir
TheRainInSpain1 votesTeemo would be terrifying with this item. +1
Possta1 votesa support item? No, they need to make a brand new 120ap item.
RavenHusky1 votes
Riot pls.
Meep Man1 votesA lovely change. I think if Gunblade was changed to be pure AP it could be the new Deathfire Grasp, but this is good too.
Painted Celt1 votesI'll repost this here. This is from a thread I made to try to get some Morde discussion. Looking back at it, the idea needs work. It would be better to find a way to bring the price to 3,300 and the AP to 120, like your suggestion. However, I do like the idea of keeping DFG in some form or another, afterall, DFG even has its own song from the Pentakill band. I might take another look at it when I get home today:
Deathfire Grasp 3700 Gold (Needlessly Large Rod + Twin Shadows + 100g) [With this change, Twin Shadows loses 20 AP and has its price readjusted to 2,000g.] 140 AP [Keep in mind that Rabadon's provides 156 AP on its own, grants an added 30% of all other AP sources, and is cheaper than this new DFG] 10% CDR 6% MS UNIQUE Active - Hunt: Summons up to 2 invulnerable ghosts that seek out the 2 nearest enemy champions for 6 seconds. If a ghost reaches its target, it reveals the target while reducing their Movement Speed by 40% and transferring 15% of their AP to the caster for 3.5 seconds.
If a ghost cannot find a target, it tries to return to the caster. Ghosts that successfully return in this way reduce the item's cooldown by 40 seconds (120 second cooldown).
[The 15% transferred AP could be swapped out for just a 15% MR reduction, which would be more similar to current DFG's effect while still pushing the item to later game and still making it somewhat less bursty.]
With the above addition, DFG would be shifted to a lategame upgrade (price on par with Triforce and Infinity Edge) in stead of an end-of-laning purchase. DFG would go from being the cheapest Needlessly Large Rod upgrade to the most expensive. Champs like Mordekaiser would still want it but would be less inclined to rush it, leaving them less bursty mid-game but helping them have a lategame fantasy. The new item would offer less instantaneous burst potential (%health active damage is out of the equation) while perhaps giving champs like Morde some chance to actually catch opponents (it would still be very difficult). In a straightforward teamfight, the ghosts would also be most likely to strike the enemy front-line, granting the active effect some counterplay, whereas the user would really want to hit the enemy APC with it. The addition of this new item would also have the benefit of encouraging people to actually use Twin Shadows, which has a really cool effect despite the community's general neglect of it. All in all, this would be a great item for mages' duels.
I do think that the change of item identity is fitting with the title "Deathfire Grasp," which calls to mind a vision of one's victim being clutched by the souls of the damned and dragged into the infernal depths of hell (ie., Morde's foreshadowed onslaught).
ŚtrongMental1 votesTo do this they would have to add another item to the build, increasing the cost far beyond what your saying
Fizz already benefits quite well with on-hit-effects, thats why they removed grevious wounds
leblanc would benefit from the AP only, considering her CD's are already incred. low
i dont play much annie, though i do own her, she's not one of those champions i would consider saying its a worth while investment
veigar doesnt generally require it, his poke allows him to see...
Mord would benefit greatly
Eve... meh
Katarina, i see up sides and down sides...
same goes for 
there are upsides and down sides to what your saying with all of these champions...
skyfall6191 voteswould be a core item on 
Twilit1 votesRiot could also give WotA
40 more AP since its essentially outclassed by Gunblade
imo. Gunblade having AD and AP, the same amount of spellvamp, AND a slow that scales with AP. While Gunblade costs more, I feel that adding 40 AP to WotA would obviously increase its costs, but also it's rewards, and it would somewhat compensate for dfg's
removal. It would also end up being a 4th 120 AP item if riot releases a new item in place of dfg. It would also prevent taking Twin Shadows
away from supports that build it often
What Is Smite1 votesThey already said in the patch notes that another 120AP will be released it just might not come out exactly next patch, plus the DFG fixes are still being worked in with Veigar and Mordekaiser being up for buffs in the next patch, maybe they might turn Morde's ult into a Damage Amp for his other abilities when it is cast on an enemy Champ
Jungle Lux God1 votesI'm not sure that I like this change.
I personally have used Twin Shadows quite a bit on some of my mages for the extra movement speed and the vision/slowing active, but it also has a lot of value on AP heavy supports for the active as well. Increasing the cost makes what is currently a pretty solid option on supports a completely unviable option because it is too expensive for a supportive build, especially if you need mana regen. If I'm not mistaken, you do need mana regeneration.
Also, even if Twin Shadows doesn't get changed to fill in the void that DFG left, give the Spooky Ghosts a shot! You might be surprised at how effective it could be.
doubleguac1 votesI'd rather not see Twin Shadows get changed to fill the DFG void.
It's currently a nice item for a lot of AP supports. It has a mid range cost, gives a very healthy chunk of AP, and has an active that provides some great additional utility. The MS is also nice for supports who have to spend a lot of time roaming around warding.
If the cost and AP were increased, it would become impractical for supports. Maybe I'm wrong, but I always assumed Riot designed the item primarily for supports, with the knowledge that it would be a niche pick on certain AP mids (like TF). It currently fills that role admirably.
If mages need another huge AP item, I'd rather Riot make a new huge AP item, or increase the AP on an item that's already geared specifically towards mids, rather than change an item that is primarily bought by supports.