Health and health per level growth is off. Assassins vs Tanks

Kowe The Ewok··42 votes·3,688 views

In my eyes the health per level growth is incredibly off. Especially when we look at assassins and tanks in direct comparison:

Rammus 564 health at level 1 / 2026 health at level 18 Zed 579 health at level 1 / 1939 health at level 18 Akali 588 health at level 1 / 2033 health at level 18


I don't think this needs much further explanation. I'll comment on it anyways.

Dedicated tank items are by far not enough to to make tanks durable enough to do their job. At the same time assassins often come with incredible sustain and lifesteal due to their kit benefitting from building these. Zed item 3153 Akali item 3146

There are two problems imminent problems:

  • Assassins are too save. Considering their burst AND dps. Zed e.g. can teleport a whole screen away and watch his target explode - and continue poking with his long range (Q+W = 1450 range) It requires quite some chain CC to kill him before he's dashes out of anybody's range. Akali has insane amount of lifesteal and spellvamp due to benefitial itemization and her passive. Be it item 3146 or item 3116 , or both suddenly makes her soak a TON of damage.

  • **Tanks have a difficult time aquiring the optimal health / armor ratio once the enemy build LW or VS.


Solution Finding a solution is difficult. Even if a game hits level 18 it's by no means over. Builds aren't anywhere near finished. Once they are 200, hell even 500 health make barely any difference when a carry or assassin target you. Thus health per level changes alone won't lead to a healthy balance. (Simply because setting them to a minute 45 adequate level would break level 18).

However, I do think that an in / decrease of 100 early and 300 late can do the trick.

Suggestion Bring the base health from assassins at level down to slightly above caster level. E.g. Heimerdinger starts with 476 health. Ezreal as an ADC starts at 484. Instead of 588 Akali (and Zed ) should be totally fine with around 505. Meanwhile tanks should have at least around 600. So instead of 564 Rammus could start with 615.

As for lategame: I believe we need a meaningfull difference here.

  • Assassins should be around 1800.

  • Bruisers should stay were they are, around 2100 and 2200 (e.g. Irelia has 2137 health at level 18)

  • Tanks should be around 2400.

50 Comments

Altricad16 votes

+1 I was just talking about this in another thread. Tanks don't feel "tanky" when their base armor/health is REALLY low.

DUDE BRO14 votes

It's because of their stupid design philosophies. Champions who build a certain way or get certain bonuses have those stats naturally lowered to make up for it.

Tanks have lower survivability because they build that way. Damage dealers have lower damage because they build that way.

If you get into specifics, Sion has one of the lowest healths in the game, because he gets free health. Lissandra gets a free spell every so often, so she has terrible mana regen, etc.

Angry Monster6 votes

then where is all the free damage for tanks?

Rew7111 votes

Zac gets some love. Maybe we can even make his start out with 590 + give his W a passive; it will give a bonus of +1/2/3/4/5% (+0.05% of AP) health regen.

WARLAG013 votes

I had noticed this as well but for some reason I didn't talk about it, +1 for you. ill add my 2 favorite champions to your list, the ones that made me notice what you are talking about and I'll try to be as un-biased as possible. I main Galio, supposedly he is a tank, secondary mage. I also like Quinn a lot, her belonging to the marksman class, secondary fighter. lets check it out and add yours as well.

Rammus 564 health at level 1 / 2026 health at level 18 Galio 577 health at level 1/ 2022 health at level 18 Zed 579 health at level 1 / 1939 health at level 18 Akali 588 health at level 1 / 2033 health at level 18 Quinn 532 health at level 1 / 1977 health at level 18

So yea, basically assassins, marksman, bruisers, tanks have the same health stats, varying in 50-90 health, which IMHO, doesn't make much sense. (at least the examples seen so far say so, but 5 over 100+ champions might not be accurate)

Now we've talked about health, but as I wrote this I began to look at things deeper, lets move to armor and mr. Galio 26,32 ar/mr at level 1 / 86,57 ar/mr at level 18 Zed 26,32 ar/mr at level 1 / 86,57 ar/mr at level 18 Quinn 23,30 ar/mr at level 1 / 82,30 ar/mr at level 18

Ok so Quinn gets less armor and much less mr, she is ranged and also not a tank so I guess its understandable. But Zed is an assassin with the same armor and mr than a tank and nearly equal health. That, again IMHO, doesn't make sense.

Now lets look at it in another perspective. Quinn 51ad at level 1 / 102ad at level 18 Zed 54ad at level 1 / 112ad at level 18 Galio 61ad at level 1/ 119ad at level 18

Now Galio being a tank has more ad than an assassin or marksman, its not much but the same argument can be used in the health part. AS is also a factor but I'm on my phone and got tired of typing now, anyways those are my thoughts.

Kowe The Ewok9 votes

Thanks for your constructive response! You are totally right with the magic resist values, I thought about adding them to the main topic - yet decided not to in order to avoid TL;DR ;)

As you correctly stated: It's odd. It's extremely odd if THE anti mage TANK has the same (as few? As much?) magic resist as a freaking assassin. One could argue that assassins need it to properly do their job, that still doesn't explain why equal OR OUTCLASS the base stats of a tank.

I just feels wrong to me.

Champion Skin2 votes

Well it also feels like there should be a bit bigger difference in hp/armor between ranged and melee

The Ellimiist1 votes

Tbh I think melee should just have larger passive hp regen and slightly larger pool.

The Ellimiist1 votes

Tbh I think melee should just have larger passive hp regen and slightly larger pool.

Champion Skin2 votes

Yeah that seems reasonable as melee's biggest problem is being harassed by ranged in laning phase (and the fact that getting into melee range in teamfights can be rather dangerous and troublesome)

Tik1155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K2GgAGg3,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-01-10T21:48:00.358+0000) One could argue that assassins need it to properly do their job.

I would argue assassins who go all in with no escapes need it, but not champions like Zed

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

Galio has bonus ar/mr and sustain (kinda) in his kit. so they my be reducing his base stats to compensate. Lets see . . .

Leona. (Just resist steroid) Health: 576 / 2055 AR,MR: 27.2/79.9 , 32.1/53.4

Amumu. (laughable flat physical damage reduction) Health: 613/2141 AR,MR: 23.5/79.6 , 32.1/53.4

Maokai. (Sustain and flat damage reduction) Health: 572/2102 AR,MR: 28.7/96.7 , 30.0

Nautilus. (Shield) Health: 576/2038 AR,MR: 26.5/81.7 , 32.1/53.4

Sejuani. (Bonus Armor) Health: 600/2215 AR,MR: 29.5/80.5 , 32.1/53.4

So based on the sample set. The general trend remains. When you have tools to supplement base stats, those base stats go down (by an inconsistent amount). That would also explain why tanks tend to have higher Base AD, since their abilities have a lower damage output.

The real question here, is why do assassins get MR/lvl? That stat is a commodity, even among tanks. Originally it didn't scale for anyone. Then they went back and gave it to a fe champs that they then labeled "true tanks". Now it seems like all the new champs are getting it. And not in small amounts either.

Sooko7 votes

I am surprised no one talks about Tryndamere 's injustifiably large base health.

"My green bar is a lot stronger than my blue bar! Oh wait... I have no blue bar."

NorthernDruid7 votes

I'd rather buff Tank initial and end-game health (and natural armor/MR gains) and nerf Assassin health per level.

It's important for early-game health and potential damage output to be close-ish between champions so that champ matchups don't become unplayable.

Another more interesting addition to tanks would be an item which offers True DR (damage reduction) as a percentage scaling with your total armor+MR (the item should probably be an expensive item also offering small pieces of armor, MR, health, regen and tenacity, potentially also slow resist.

whether or not True DR should work against true dmg should be debatable.

But it's definatively something that would help tanks out, especially as long as the item is made unviable on other classes due to reliance on other sources of tanky stats.


On another note, especially Akali needs to be balanced better around her energy costs, which could be more noticeable, especially if her R was given an energy cost.

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

Another more interesting addition to tanks would be an item which offers True DR (damage reduction). . .

item 3180 and item 3047

Shame veil isn't on SR. Also a shame there's no armor equivalent.

NorthernDruid3 votes

Tabi doesn't help me any against champions who damage me with abilities. And sometimes you can't get it because you have to get item 3111 instead.

An item which gave percentage reduction against both physical and magical damage and which scaled with your armor/MR to make it effective on tanks an not so effective on anyone else (as well as being a late game buy) is what I was thinking of.

ImHerVoice6 votes

riot fucked our non DPS roles again with these changes. its disgusting seeing a zed with nearly as much hp as my j4 or my rammus or my chogath jungle. Another balanced change for ADC/Mid laners while everyone else gets fucked lmfao \

imo though akalis base health makes sense her waveclear is complete shit. She's going to be recalling at least once before six against any decent lane oppenent even with current health.

zed however is broken as shit and needs every nerf possible.

YourKiller22 votes

exactly people say there easy to kill but assains tend to have more tankyness dmg and escapes than as well as most not having a resorcee combined with the mana changes makes them far ahead of other mid laners. I get that assasins are supposed to kill them but not completely rek them with no chance to make a comeback but you know got to make the lcs plays.

Afro Skeleton3 votes

Ofc Assassins should be the tanky ones, not the tanks Kappa

Kowe The Ewok3 votes

I know this topic has been burried for a while, but considering how the Zed & jungle changes went I consider it more relevant than ever.

agbudar2 votes

yea this is so true and then you have Mordekaiser with some of the highest attack speed base and scaling in the game like wtf man? he doesnt even need it. cut it in half and give him some serious ad so his hits feel heavy and powerful

(yes i want morde to be AD it makes sense)

Champion Skin2 votes

Well that would be a buff to Mordekaiser as it would make his Auto attack + Q hit harder and he rarely is able to stick to people given no CC or mobility so attack speed wouldn't really benefit him anyways

OblongOtter2 votes

One little thing about what you said at the end. You said a melee with no escapes (Akali) should have as much or less health than a ranged champion with a built in flash (Ezreal.)

Kowe The Ewok2 votes

Ezreal has 1 dash to go out. Akali has 3 to follow.

OblongOtter1 votes

Ez has one dash to get in or out as early as level 3 and can kite. Akali has 3 to follow, at level 6, and doesn't have 3 until a minute after she hit's 6.

Brenticus122 votes

Does that really matter? An Akali isn't going to be doing much before lvl 6 anyway.

Also Akali needs to only proc her mark for her combo and has three charges of her ult to do so

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

How often does a level 3 Akali fight a level 3 Ezreal?....

OblongOtter1 votes

I'm not saying they would fight, I'm just saying what I said. That you propose one of the safest champs in the game has more health than a melee with no escapes.

junglerboy162 votes

The reasoning behind assassins having higher base stats for defense and tanks having higher base stats for offense is that a tank will almost always build tanky, and an assassin will almost always build damage. The base stats are set the way they are to allow the assassin to slightly more easily make use of their high offensive scaling, while the extra offense base stats on tanks allows them to prioritize defense without becoming unable to CS. Ideally, there should be a larger difference between how high an assassin's defensive bases are to a tank's, and how high a tank's offense is to an assassin's. Higher offensive base stats make bruisers have better synergy with items like Sheen, and saying assassins should have even more damage in exchange for less defense would make them even stronger since they already hardly need defense at all.

There are also questions of ranged vs melee, AD vs AP, burst vs DPS, but in general, this^ is why assassins and tanks have the stats they do.

Rozzeta2 votes

{quoted}

The reasoning behind assassins having higher base stats for defense and tanks having higher base stats for offense is that a tank will almost always build tanky, and an assassin will almost always build damage. The base stats are set the way they are to allow the assassin to slightly more easily make use of their high offensive scaling, while the extra offense base stats on tanks allows them to prioritize defense without becoming unable to CS. Ideally, there should be a larger difference between how high an assassin's defensive bases are to a tank's, and how high a tank's offense is to an assassin's. Higher offensive base stats make bruisers have better synergy with items like Sheen, and saying assassins should have even more damage in exchange for less defense would make them even stronger since they already hardly need defense at all.

There are also questions of ranged vs melee, AD vs AP, burst vs DPS, but in general, this^ is why assassins and tanks have the stats they do.

I agree with this. On the other side of the spectrum, Cho-Gath has the highest base AD at level 18 (followed by Skarner, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not nearly as concerned by those stats as I am of Assassins get out of jail sklls that allow them to not commit to a fight they start themselves, and their considerably good waveclear.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Cho and Skarner both have the same base AD and growth factor - hence, the same (and highest continuous) base AD in the game.

Only higher one is Mega-Gnar.

VDc0zCqe0w2 votes

as much as i agree with you, you just took the ADC with the lowest HP base just to prove your point l0l

the most tanky ADC is MF with an insanely high 578 HP base and 24 armor

then there's Ashe with 528 and 21.2, Vayne with 498 and 19, Varus with 538 and 23 and such, Ezreal is the lowest one

anyways, i pretty much agree with you in general, but champs such as MF need that tankyness early on because its hers feature (early ADC-lane bully)

GloriousKaiser2 votes

It's the Sion problem again.

Riot Logic: We give champions whose main itemization revolves around defense lower bases so that they have to actually do well to achieve their defenses.

Elphrihaim1 votes

OP, your spelling is absolutely atrocious but your ideas are great.

Junkο1 votes

it's because Rammus is older than Zed and Akali, so his stats are back when Riot balanced differently. For example Yasuo has no MR per level because of his anti mage mechanics, some other anti mages meanwhile have it.

It's also technically Riot trying to force a role. For example Galio USED TO have no MR per level, so if he wanted to benefit from his passive he had to build MR. Another example is Sion having poor health and only gaining 8 health per monster and champion killls (no large minions) so he is forced into jungle.

You don't buy HP on Rammus? You are spuishy as hell as punishment.

Brenticus121 votes

Sion isn't forced into the jungle.. He gains 2 hp per CS and 8 for cannon minions and champions..

Junkο1 votes

He only gains 8 for large monsters only, unless they changed it last patch

junglerboy161 votes

it is actually 10 for large monsters and cannon minions. I play him a lot, trust me.

Junkο1 votes

Hmm, must have been patched then because i know it didn't work on lane minions when i played him when he was reworked.

But still some other champs are still forced into specific roles or specific build paths. Very few champions actually have 2 or more roles they can be played as (aside from top laners who can for most part also jungle)

junglerboy161 votes

Only a handful of ADCs and Assassins have only one viable role. Most champs can go to several lanes with several build types. Master Yi is strong top mid and jungle, Annie can support and mid, Alistar can support mid and top, etc. Now, not every champ is really strong in every role that they can fill, but saying most cannot do multiple roles at all is hyperbole.

Brenticus121 votes

Could you give some examples for that? Pretty much all champs that I can think of can atleast play one or more roles and can be built differently and still be effective.

Solidair31 votes

Tanks can't just have straight up 3000 HP at level 18, though. Because then they would just build AP AND be tanky for free and break the game.

Perhaps Assassins could do with less HP, though.

Angry Monster3 votes

i disagree. 3000 health is not that much. And most tanks scaling sucks, since there ratios are sub par to make up for there CC.

2pudge1cup1 votes

Base stats, including MS, in general need to be looked at across the board. There's so many discrepancies that make no sense at all. I couldn't believe that they were globally adjusted coming into this season based on a simple formula.

ComannderShepard1 votes

I've always wondered why people put an "I don't care" option on their polls. Kind of counter productive when trying to create a discussion don't you think?

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

It's better to have somebody vote "idc" than have him start trolling (yes, I have seen people troll simply because they don't care).

Weazyritzstrket1 votes

bump

Altricad1 votes

Bump!

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